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No one can prove any history over a few thousand years.
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Which was a hypothetical which you can't show applies to the real world.
And there we go with the circular reasoning again.
And you don't get to claim that there's more to reality unless you can provide testable evidence for it.
And that stubbing of your toe would be the demonstration.Who needs to demonstrate that it exists? We live in it. If you stub your toe you know it exists. But we also know that God exists and angels and spirits. That has been demonstrated to mankind since time immemorial. WE can say science does not even know that much though(or not)
No it didn't.
You don't get it.
What are you talking about? The claims of science CAN be tested. That's the foundation of science.
You keep claiming there is evidence, yet you are utterly incapable of providing any of this evidence.
I don't think you understand what personal revelation actually means.
Prove it.
We have testable evidence that the natural exists.
Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for the supernatural.
That doesn't even make any sense.
I never claimed there is no such thing as the supernatural, I said there is insufficient reason to think it exists.
Right, so I was right that many religions include claims, "We are right, but there will be many who don't share our belief."
No, if a scientist can present testable evidence for their claims, and that evidence withstands scrutiny, then it will be accepted.
So? So it means absolutely nothing when people predict that the "end times" will be marked by events that are constantly happening.
You have absolutely no idea how science works, and your little strawman arguments only serve to make your position look ridiculous.
Meaningless little soundbite.
There we go, that's what personal revelation is. You seemed confused about it before.
To anyone.
Prove it. Prove the existence of even one kind of spirit.
You have no understanding of understanding.
See? This is what I mean when I say you lack understanding.
If they have actually experienced the supernatural, their experiences should all agree. Why would the supernatural be so different for different people? We don't see that with things that actually exist. It's not like fire is hot for some people, cold for other people. When it comes to things that are real, people's experiences are all the same. That's how we know it's real.
Oh, and here we go with the "science makes weapons, so science is bad, and therefore science is wrong."
No it's not.
Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide even the smallest bit of actual evidence for the supernatural.
You can't show it doesn't apply, and since we already had probably millions of miracles recorded, you need to have more than the natural only for your splainin power.
That is already known and always has been. Having some few ignore it to promote their godless philosophies matters not at all. We can say they do not know there is or is not more if we want to be kind and generous to them
Long as they get to use only the natural. We get it. Too bad for them that can't work and many have grown tired of the scam
Exactly, using only the natural to get there is all they care about. Narrow minded.
A natural only process. Totally irrelevant to God or creation.
You can say that again!
Yes, the leave God out method of using only the natural
Why should they care what you think either way?
Not any claims regarding using only the natural to determine what creation was like. They can test some natural process, but cannot claim that is why a rock got there.
Then we are left with you neither knowing either way or having any ability to know. Nice
Since you brought it up, tell us
And no one in their right mind asked if it exists. Obviously the natural exists!
The natural is not the supernatural, so what evidence could it have about anything else other than itself?
It is real. That is not justification for believing anything other than it exists. We all knew that anyhow!
Most believe there is more so the 'we' you use seems to be meaningless.
Natural evidence? Well, Thomas saw the holes in Jesus, still not healed, and was told to put his finger in them to remove his doubts. Let me guess, there was no Jesus, no Thomas, no wounds, no room through which Jesus went through the walls, etc etc. Then you ask for proof!? Ha. You want natural man in a lab, that happens to be there when a miracle is happening to him or some such apparently. Then you want natural only lab equipment to be able to see this and know it was a miracle. In other words, you have a close minded made up my mind already approach. Better to just admit you don't know.
There is enough reason so that most of the world in all ages including today know it to be so. Therefore you are talking about some obstinate few that demand absurd proof. Jesus didn't come to educate and prove things to the self satisfied who have no real desire to know. He came to heal the sick and feed the hungry hearts that really want to know.
All they have to be right about is that their family or ancestors or people experienced something that was supernatural. Not the same thing as all others nations or families or peoples. The only agreement that matters here is that they agree there is more than the natural. They do. And having some naturalonlydunniall nerd be able to prove it using their little preferred criteria and conditions really matters not at all. If God cared about doing things only in ways that Scripture rejecting naturalonlists preferred, He would have done that.
In the context of this discussion, the only reason various faiths are mentioned is because they know there is more than the natural. Who cares how special they may think their particular group is?
No one said their text was true here. Strawman. They know there is more than science can deal with. That does not make them all correct or flawless in whatever they may write.
That is like saying if a grasshopper can jump to the moon, the moon is real. Natural only limited scientists can jump no further than the natural.
If the special events to happen in the end time constantly happened you might have a point
We all know what it works with. The natural!
No. believe it or not.
1 John 5:20
Lie anyone asked them? They could not tell is a ghost was in the room, or an angel, or if a person that was healed was healed by God or much of anything else, if it slapped them upside the head! They would be the last people on earth anyone should ask about the supernatural
Plenty, but not in your box. It is outside your box. God works outside of the natural and science.
Not at all. There are probably millions of demons. They lie and confuse any way they can. Why would they always inspire people to have the same story about something extra ordinary?
Right, but an intelligent observer would probably know they were all on drugs
No. It means that they all had experiences that were not necessarily the same. Why would all people of all faiths and situations have the same experience?
Whose religion? True religion visits the sick and preaches the gospel etc. Warmongers and tyrants claiming to be of God are seen as religious by many who are not so bright.
No. All faiths including the true faith know that the supernatural is real. That does not mean that all faiths are wrong about some demonic experience some of them may have had or some miracle etc. Having a third cousin twice removed experiencing a miracle does not mean the whole nation or people are suddenly and forever right about everything else! It means that enough things have happened over time to convince them that there is more than just the natural
Your box is too small
That's a terrible argument!
Claiming it is known is not demonstrating it.
You seem to be deliberately ignoring what I've been saying.
At this point you are just repeating the same logical fallacies and same claims I have already tried to explain to you are wrong or based on a lack of understanding. You have displayed absolutely no sign of wanting to learn anything. You just cling to your position no matter what I say, loudly disagree with anything I put forward even if you don't understand it, and generally think that if I hold one position, you must automatically take the exact opposite position.
I do not accuse science of falsifying anything. That would be like a blind woman at a world dart championship being expected to win. Science cannot see spirits. It could not recognize supernatural activity. Take creation for example!
No, most already know it is true and do not need your approval or doubts. Not like you know anyhow or could tell. Science contents itself with absolute ignorance of anything but the natural. So it would not have any say in anything else. If any men of science were so foolish as to imagine that the supernatural could or should be shown true or false by them, the denizens of the natural only, that would not be our problem.
Not to those who force ignorance of anything but the natural on themselves. They only demonstration they want or could see would be natural! A ghost might as well dance for the three blind mice as to dance for scientists. They could not see or hear it.
Natural only evidence. Did you think it dealt with the supernatural? That is not what science is about.
Like the 3 blind mice would?
You have displayed absolutely no sign of being capable of teaching anything.
No, your position was clear. You worship the natural only based conclusions of science despite them having no knowledge of the spiritual whatsoever and no ability to see it or hear it. If a ghost did a jig on a lab table for them and knocked over a test tube, they would say it was the wind, or that it was sitting wrong or etc etc etc. Comical
I think the evidence of Jesus should be verified by you and already has been by a lot of people. You just need to stop looking to the wrong people.
Others can have any fact ignoring, history ignoring, testimony ignoring, prophesy that came true ignoring opinion they like. What others may not do is use the natural processes in God's creation that go on now, to tell us how or when He created it all. Or that it was not created.
That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. Creation was done by a spirit. That which is natural is natural and that which is spiritual is spiritual. Wisdom is knowing the difference. Science doesn't know the difference or even that there is a difference. Vive la difference.
You use it to verify natural evidence. So, if we are trying to verify that radioactive decay happens at a certain rate, we would take samples of physical rocks for example. If we were trying to verify that God spoke through prophets we would check to see if bible prophesy is mostly already fulfilled and now history or not. Give not the job of verifying that which is holy to dogs. There is a place for everything and everything in it's place. A place for the spiritual. A place for the natural. When science makes claims about a supernatural event like creation it is out of place!
So you use that which is natural to verify evidence by using it to verify evidence.
Mark your calendars, this is a day when AV and I agree!
If it is something in the natural world, you do use natural means to look at evidence. Not sure what such a simple and obvious concept launches you into word game mode.
Well, you would not pay a psychic to program it would you?
A piano is physical and needs to be operated accordingly. What does that have to do with the creation of the world by God? You would not bang on piano keys to find out how He did it. Just like you would not look at a rock to find out how He did it.
Not applicable to creation. Whatever He did in making the universe exist with a word is not testable by natural science
Except if that rock was here at creation 6000 years ago, the ratios in any part of the rock do not matter. They were all there when the rock came to exist. (assuming that rock was there at creation. All natural science can do is look at the various isotope ratios in a rock and how they undergo a decay process. That has zero connection to How or when God created them. You just try to grasp at straws and grasp at the processes going on now, as if they are what brought the rock into being! That is not verifying anything except that the way God created things now works a certain way.
Unless the rock was made after creation, which was something like 6000 years ago, then none of what you say applies. If a pattern of more or less isotopes of a certain kind exist in a rock, and each are undergoing processes, that does not mean the top part created the lower part or etc!
No. It shows it is uselessly bad. It is just an exercise to say the rock formed it's little self and was not created by God. You see if that rock was created, it came to exist as is more or less 6000 years ago.
No. You just do not learn from your mistakes and do not even know you are making mistakes. The ratios are not dates! They only would/could/should/we believe be dates IF the rock was not created. That says nothing, except you choose to view a created rock as NOT created!
Declaring the created ratios in a created rock to have actually come to exist BY the natural processes going on is absolutely nothing more than a statement of faith.
Except you gave no actual example. No link. No support. You might be thinking of a formation like the grand canyon where the layers consist of different isotope ratios with more daughter material lower down or some such?
In the example of the Grand Canyon, the only prediction from science is that the various layers will have different ratios (that they mistakenly associated with ages) in them. Nothing is falsifiable about that regarding whether the rocks were actually created or not! Testing the layers and verifying that there are different ratios in them does NOT mean they got there by natural processes!
