Stigma of witchcraft

[awitch]

(duplicate)

 

[cloudyday2]

Drugs have been used for centuries for medicine and food. Recreational or harmful use of drugs in another matter (witchcraft) Brujo is the word for Native Americans who use herbs for purposes other than healing.
Abortion, exactly where and when has the Christian Church or European culture condoned abortion as a legitimate medical practice?
The concept of Doctor versus Witch Doctor is the ethical/unethical practice of the healing arts.

I'm not an expert on the history of witches, but it seems that we need to specify the culture and time period. When the Christian Church initially took control of European culture there were probably Hellenistic witches and there were probably also various types of healers and priests from the barbarian tribes. The Christian conquest of Europe took centuries also. I read an article about witchcraft in Scandinavia and apparently every good wife was expected to know witchcraft to aid her husband. I have also read articles about secret witches in more Christianized times and locales that seem to have been almost like feminist clubs - a reaction against the male dominated society. It's all pretty confusing and complicated to me. Maybe others here can clarify.

In general, I think your idea that witches were always trying to harm people isn't accurate. Maybe that isn't what you were saying and I misunderstood you.

 

[QvQ]

I'm not an expert on the history of witches, but it seems that we need to specify the culture and time period. When the Christian Church initially took control of European culture there were probably Hellenistic witches and there were probably also various types of healers and priests from the barbarian tribes. The Christian conquest of Europe took centuries also. I read an article about witchcraft in Scandinavia and apparently every good wife was expected to know witchcraft to aid her husband. I have also read articles about secret witches in more Christianized times and locales that seem to have been almost like feminist clubs - a reaction against the male dominated society. It's all pretty confusing and complicated to me. Maybe others here can clarify.

In general, I think your idea that witches were always trying to harm people isn't accurate. Maybe that isn't what you were saying and I misunderstood you.

It is a modern myth that witches were a feminist club. More men were prosecuted for witchcraft than women. 92% of witches in Iceland were male. In Salem the first witch executed was male. The victims were young girls who spoke blasphemies. To translate "blasphemy" remember that De Sade was accused of blasphemy with female prostitutes. In Salem, there is some evidence drugs were involved.
The Classic Witches Coven, dancing naked in the moonlight ingesting henbane and other psychoactive drugs includes both male and female participants.
Granted it is more complicated and word has taken a much wider meaning but the Law, according to the cases on file from medieval times, usually involved illicit drugs, poisons or harmful substances and/or abortion.

 

[awitch]

It is a modern myth that witches were a feminist club.

While there were/are a few small groups of female only covens, I noticed the general trend for modern witches places an emphasis on the female.

More men were prosecuted for witchcraft than women. 92% of witches in Iceland were male. In Salem the first witch executed was male. The victims were young girls who spoke blasphemies. To translate "blasphemy" remember that De Sade was accused of blasphemy with female prostitutes. In Salem, there is some evidence drugs were involved.

Agreed. Many of the accusations had little to do with actual witchcraft; they were opportunities to seize property, eliminate competing farms and businesses, and get back at that obnoxious neighbor. Women weren't often allowed to own property so...

I believe the Salem trials started to wind down after the pastor's wife was accused of being a witch.

The Classic Witches Coven, dancing naked in the moonlight ingesting henbane and other psychoactive drugs includes both male and female participants.

This is consistent with my understanding that drugs were slathered on the broom handles and the women would ride the broom naked so the drugs would be absorbed into the body faster.

For clarity, I do not use such drugs; I'm often reluctant to take a Tylenol. And now that NJ has voted to legalize a particular recreational drug, I have no plans to use it.

 

[cloudyday2]

I've seen pictures of groups of Christians praying in the Orans position which is praying with Hands extended. It looks for all the world to me like they are trying to channel energy towards the intended prayer target. And when done as a group it looks to me like they believe that their energy transfer is way more powerful with more impact when performed that way. When these pictures cross my screen it always strikes me as as a form of spell casting. And than there's the pictures of Evangelical leaders gathered around Trump that hit me the same way as they touch each other and the president. I suppose that because it's Christian that it's not considered casting a spell. But I see no difference. Or is it is merely a psychological phenomenon that really has no effect in reality?

The entire Eastern Orthodox liturgy affected me that way. There was no praying in the orans position, but there was so much apparent concern for the complicated rituals. It seemed to me that many believed that if the bread was sliced incorrectly or the words were garbled then Jesus wouldn't be present in the Eucharist. I know that isn't quite what Orthodox are supposed to believe, but it is difficult not to be affected that way.

 

[cloudyday2]

This is consistent with my understanding that drugs were slathered on the broom handles and the women would ride the broom naked so the drugs would be absorbed into the body faster.

I read a case where a grandmother and her granddaughter applied the flying ointment to a pig and rode him together to reach the spiritual world. Interestingly, pigs are immune to the toxicity of henbane and enjoy the effects. I can't imagine how they could ride a crazed pig while they were delirious. LOL (Not making fun of the witchcraft traditions of course. It's very interesting that people can learn so many things and pass down the knowledge. They must have watched pigs eat henbane with impunity and decided that pigs should be part of their rituals. It's a shame that so many non-Christian religious traditions were probably lost.)

I was also wondering about the expression "when pigs fly". Maybe there is a connection?

Also I wonder about the witch's broom versus the witch's distaff. Was the broom a misunderstanding and it was actually a distaff?

 

[QvQ]

While there were/are a few small groups of female only covens, I noticed the general trend for modern witches places an emphasis on the female.



Agreed. Many of the accusations had little to do with actual witchcraft; they were opportunities to seize property, eliminate competing farms and businesses, and get back at that obnoxious neighbor. Women weren't often allowed to own property so...

I believe the Salem trials started to wind down after the pastor's wife was accused of being a witch.



This is consistent with my understanding that drugs were slathered on the broom handles and the women would ride the broom naked so the drugs would be absorbed into the body faster.

For clarity, I do not use such drugs; I'm often reluctant to take a Tylenol. And now that NJ has voted to legalize a particular recreational drug, I have no plans to use it.

It was when I was studying the use of recreational drugs throughout history that I realized that recreational drug use has been a problem for the ages.
As it says in Ecclesiastes, There is nothing new under the sun. Only the terminology has changed. Given the pharmaceutical resources and the reluctance to 'blaspheme" (repeat or record testimony from young girls to be reported before a Congregation) there is more research being done into what exactly Did those ancient guys mean by those words.
Interesting subject, historically and relevant today, certainly

 

[awitch]

I was also wondering about the expression "when pigs fly". Maybe there is a connection?

I can't imagine hallucinogenic-covered-pig-riding was ever popular since I bet very few survived to tell anyone about it. But apparently, the expression does come from a very old Scottish proverb.

Also I wonder about the witch's broom versus the witch's distaff. Was the broom a misunderstanding and it was actually a distaff?

I'm not sure. I didn't know any witches that had a staff. I had a walking stick that I made and used it when hiking which was often considered a spiritual experience, but I mostly used it to not fall in the river when crossing the stepping stones.

 

[PloverWing]

There isn't a third spiritual force to which one can appeal, there is only God and Satan.

I disagree here.

God created other things besides Satan. When I listen to neoPagans describe their spirituality, what I hear is that some find the sacred in natural things -- maybe a specific bird or tree, maybe the-earth-in-general; others find the sacred within the human spirit, and their practice helps to focus their inner selves on their goals or values; still others look to the pantheons of the past, which personified various natural or human forces with names like Aphrodite or Thor. All of these are good things that God created.

There is certainly room for disagreement here between these ideas and Christian beliefs. A Christian may well say that God is not many, but one, or that God is a being who exists apart from our thoughts about God, or that a particular image of God does not adequately express God's being. A respectful interfaith discussion would then explore what we both mean behind the words we say, and explore where we truly agree and disagree.

What I don't see in neoPagan practice, though, is a worship of evil. I don't worship, for example, Aphrodite, but I also don't think that human love is evil; I believe it to be a good creation of God.

[ Standard disclaimer: I base my understanding of neoPaganism on books like Drawing Down the Moon and on conversations with Pagans, but I speak as an outsider to your faith. If I'm out to lunch about your beliefs, by all means, set me straight. ]

 

[HARK!]

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