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Sports Should Unify, Not Divide Us

RocksInMyHead

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That was a great example and reasoning - which is why I have yet to claim that anyone is a groomer.

Now that I think about it more you may be right. I concede.
Glad to see that you're willing to change your views.
I disagree. If I see someone carrying on a conversation with a lamp - I know they are mentally ill.
Do you? They could also be high, suffering from dementia (not a mental illness, per se - it's a physical degradation of the brain), or maybe they just enjoy talking to inanimate objects (it's a good way to vent your thoughts and feelings without judgment).

You might suspect that they are mentally ill, but without a clinical assessment, you do not know. And when it comes to transgender issues, I'd say that the average person is even less capable of making a clinical assessment, given the prejudices and preconceptions that exist.
 
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Zaha Torte

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I think gender is fuzzier and less binary than many of us have long believed. We also have friends with two intersex kids; whole cultures have had traditions acknowledging third genders or subsets of people who change gender at puberty; and you can grow different parts just by screwing with your hormones.
Even if the things you are claiming here were true - none of those things make the ideas of sex or "gender" fuzzy at all.

Intersexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. They are people born with abnormalities that may make it more difficult to determine their sex - but they are still either male or female. No other option.

Whole cultures have had traditions about burning their children alive, sacrificing human hearts to demons, cannibalism - does that mean that these traditions are good or true and we should embrace them?

Hormonal imbalances can cause changes in our secondary and primary reproductive organs - but they do not change our sex.
All that aside, these people are my friends, acquaintances, and coworkers, and it has zero impact on me whatsoever what they want to call themselves. If they want me to call them by their middle name, fine. If they want me to call them by their non-Anglicized name, fine. If they want me to call them by their trans name, fine. Who cares?
You are free to do as you want - but I don't make a habit of lying to the people I love.

They need our love. They need the truth. They need the Lord Jesus Christ. To save them from this delusion. So, they can find peace.
 
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Zaha Torte

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Glad to see that you're willing to change your views.
I am not perfect and all-knowing...yet. :)
Do you? They could also be high, suffering from dementia (not a mental illness, per se - it's a physical degradation of the brain), or maybe they just enjoy talking to inanimate objects (it's a good way to vent your thoughts and feelings without judgment).

You might suspect that they are mentally ill, but without a clinical assessment, you do not know. And when it comes to transgender issues, I'd say that the average person is even less capable of making a clinical assessment, given the prejudices and preconceptions that exist.
I don't see prejudices and preconceptions so much as biological reality and reason.
 
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rambot

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As a Latter-day Saint I have had a lot of people explain to me how they disagreed with me.

Most were polite about it - but many got angry - tell me that I was going to Hell and whatnot.

I never considered myself to be a victim.
Thank you for sharing that part of who you are.
Imagine for a second that deepest darkest sin...the biggest one you've EVER done. WAs branded on your forehead for everyone to see.
How do you think people would choose to interact with you?

A lot of people get offended or hurt when people call them rapists, or hedonists, or perverts, or groomers.
If you were none of those things and someone called you that, how would it make you feel?

Not about you going to hell. That's dogma.
Why do you believe that transgender people are victims?

Like what?
like "You should just go die"..."You shouldn't be alive. Go kill yourself". "My parents said you're gross and I have to stay away from you".

Stuff like that I guess.
 
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Zaha Torte

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Thank you for sharing that part of who you are.
You're welcome.

I remember when I was on my mission, and I was talking to this lady outside of her home while she was gardening and something came flying out of nowhere and almost clipped me in the head.

It turned out to be one of those real expensive graphing calculators - like the $100 ones - I don't know how much they are now - and I did see a school bus driving passed when that thing came at me.

Free calculator! :)
Imagine for a second that deepest darkest sin...the biggest one you've EVER done. WAs branded on your forehead for everyone to see.
How do you think people would choose to interact with you?
I get your point - but if we are remaining consistent - this is a self-imposed "branding" that can be removed at any time - barring no irreparable damage from hormones and surgery.

I hope you see why I might want to share the truth with someone suffering from this - as opposed to agreeing with their delusion or whatever - so that they hopefully don't get to that point where the "brand" is permanent.

And at least for me - it would be more about the damage I did to myself then what other people said that would do me in.

I have a difficult time forgiving myself for little things - I can't imagine how I would feel if I did something I could never fix.
A lot of people get offended or hurt when people call them rapists, or hedonists, or perverts, or groomers.
Sure - I understand that.

My advice would be - if you are not one of those things and your motivation is to not be labelled those things - avoid people, places and things that may cause people to think that of you.

I know people might not want to believe it - but there are a lot of examples of members of the LGBT community actively grooming kids - perhaps not to have sex with them - but some of the things are things a pedophile would do. They just would.

Telling kids to explore their bodies, to keep secrets from their parents, to open up to other people's sexuality - it's not unreasonable for people - especially parents - to think these things.

The Lord Jesus Christ often associated with "publicans and sinners" and prostitutes would visit Him - and He offered them healing and grace - yet He did not frequent places of sin or promote sinful behavior.
If you were none of those things and someone called you that, how would it make you feel?
There was a time that I would get angry or sad - but now - I honestly wouldn't care - unless I felt that I was in danger or something.

My getting angry or sad would only make things worse, in my opinion.
Not about you going to hell. That's dogma.
I do believe there is a Hell - but it is a temporary condition that only the unrepentant will suffer.
like "You should just go die"..."You shouldn't be alive. Go kill yourself". "My parents said you're gross and I have to stay away from you".
My wife says this stuff to me all the time. :)

I obviously don't agree with the calls to unaliving themselves, but I don't think parents would be unreasonable to want their children to stay away.
Stuff like that I guess.
I never said that transgender people could never be victims - only that they are not victims by default.
 
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Pommer

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Correct - which is why context is key.
My mind reading skills have waned, if you’d like to be understood in context, then you’re going to have to spell out which context you’re aiming fer.
 
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Zaha Torte

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My mind reading skills have waned, if you’d like to be understood in context, then you’re going to have to spell out which context you’re aiming fer.
Exactly my point.
 
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Pommer

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Yes, I do. Thank you.

Although - you don't seem to understand what praying is.
Hence the “” around “praying”, please update your knowledge of common rhetorical devices, thanks.
 
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Zaha Torte

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Hence the “” around “praying”, please update your knowledge of common rhetorical devices, thanks.
You believe that placing quotes around a word turns that word into a different word?

I know that they don't help you know what praying actually is.
 
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Pommer

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You believe that placing quotes around a word turns that word into a different word?

I know that they don't help you know what praying actually is.
How does any of this sidebar refute my point that “indoctrination is only okay when it’s the indoctrination that we’re used to.”?
 
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SimplyMe

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Even if the things you are claiming here were true - none of those things make the ideas of sex or "gender" fuzzy at all.

Intersexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. They are people born with abnormalities that may make it more difficult to determine their sex - but they are still either male or female. No other option.

There isn't? Who makes the decision if someone is male or female? I might also point out, since you appear to claim this as part of your religious beliefs, Matthew 19:12, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Since Christ, just a few verses above, is talking about how at the beginning they were created "male and female," when talking about divorce, and continues into those that are eunuch's from their mother's womb, there is an implication that a "third sex" -- or at least those who don't fit into the male/female binary -- had come about due to the "fall."

I recently stumbled on to a YouTube video where a person with a successful YouTube channel where the creator talked of being born intersexed. The person was born with what looked like a female body and was raised as female. This YouTuber mentioned not being like other girls growing up. Then, when this person turned 16 it was realized that puberty had never started and so doctors were consulted. It was found, after a large number of tests, that this person was genetically male and that there were non-functioning (underdeveloped) testes in the person's body (which were removed due to threat of cancer), no internal female organs, etc. The necessary amount of hormones were not being created, since the organs that would create those hormones did not exist in that person's body. So, tell me, what sex (or gender) is this person? And if the gender this person is claiming now is different than what you decided, does that mean they are the "wrong gender?"

And to correct a possible mistake of yours, the best evidence is that transsexuals (at least those properly diagnosed) are a form of intersex. A number of animal studies have been done where, by manipulating the hormones at a critical stage of pre-natal development, that transsexual animals are created. Corresponding with this, it has been found in some tidal estuaries where large amounts of chemical pollutants, in particular fertilizers and pesticides that use estrogen as a major ingredient, there are a large number of animals (particularly birds) that exhibit transgender behavior, as the estrogens appear to be causing that transexual "birth defect."

Additionally, there have been a few studies of transsexuals where they do an autopsy on the brain and find that the brain structure aligns with the "sex" (or gender) the person claimed to be. In essence, they feel they are the opposite sex because of their brain and not because of "mental illness." It is also worth pointing out the most recent study particularly ensured the brains had not been influenced by the transsexual person taking hormones.

The best evidence is that transsexualism is a physical issue, not a mental one. The issue is that there are no real cures to this disease and the "cures" we have are wanting. Talk therapy and religion do not work well, they tend to lead to depression and shockingly high rates of suicide. Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) works better, and as pointed out have a higher "success" rate than many other types of surgery, but still isn't a "cure." As you point out, it makes the person appear as the gender they want to be (with varying degrees of success, it tends to be much more successful the earlier it is done) but does not actually make them that gender (no internal sexual organs, etc).

And while I stated that the earlier SRS is done, the better the results, that does not mean I support SRS on children. The professional standards have traditionally been that individuals must be 18 before any permanent, irreversible changes are made; though that has frequently been interpreted to mean surgery. One of the other, and perhaps the largest challenge, is how to accurately diagnose transsexualism; and the damage it can cause when misdiagnosed.

Whole cultures have had traditions about burning their children alive, sacrificing human hearts to demons, cannibalism - does that mean that these traditions are good or true and we should embrace them?

You seem to have missed the point. In all of those cases, those cultures have largely been condemned, even by the majority of cultures in the world in those times.

On the other hand, even you don't seem to condemn transsexuals, you just think they need help with their issues. The point is that these other cultures had their own way of "helping" these people and turned them into productive members of their culture, and even made them important positions in their culture. This did not cause perversion or for everyone to suddenly become transsexual. Maybe there are even things we could learn from them, that if we don't try to force people who feel trapped by their gender to conform to a particularly viewpoint, that we can "cure" them and not have them go through the issues of depression. I'll also note that the goal of therapy, at least traditionally, with transgendered individuals is to always do the minimum that can be done to make the person feel at peace; to not do surgery or hormones unless it has to be done to help the person become who they feel they have to be.

Hormonal imbalances can cause changes in our secondary and primary reproductive organs - but they do not change our sex.

You are free to do as you want - but I don't make a habit of lying to the people I love.

They need our love. They need the truth. They need the Lord Jesus Christ. To save them from this delusion. So, they can find peace.

Since you are LDS, I'll point out there are plenty of Mormon (or former Mormon) transsexuals who have not found the peace, that you claim they should find, through Christ alone. I'll also note that the position of the Mormon Church toward transsexuals has gotten more "liberal" over time. Last, I'll also state that I've heard stories (and I cannot verify them but heard them second hand from people who were in leadership positions -- Bishop or Stake President) of transsexuals who had SRS and were able, after interviews with General Authorities, to get endowed as their sex/gender after SRS.
 
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Zaha Torte

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How does any of this sidebar refute my point that “indoctrination is only okay when it’s the indoctrination that we’re used to.”?
Oh ok.

So, you believe that "grooming" and "sexual deviancy" are similar to pledging allegiance to the US flag?

Can you explain why that is?
 
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Zaha Torte

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There isn't? Who makes the decision if someone is male or female? I might also point out, since you appear to claim this as part of your religious beliefs, Matthew 19:12, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Since Christ, just a few verses above, is talking about how at the beginning they were created "male and female," when talking about divorce, and continues into those that are eunuch's from their mother's womb, there is an implication that a "third sex" -- or at least those who don't fit into the male/female binary -- had come about due to the "fall."
No - this is absurd.

A eunuch was not a "third sex" - but was generally used as a term for a castrated man - but the Lord was expanding the definition.

Besides those "made eunuchs of men" (physically castrated) - He was also referencing those born without the ability to perform sexually (from their mother's womb) as well as those who had forgone sexual relations to focus on God and His Kingdom (made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake).

A eunuch is not a "third sex". There are only the two sexes - male and female - and no one needs to have any religious beliefs to know that.
I recently stumbled on to a YouTube video where a person with a successful YouTube channel where the creator talked of being born intersexed. The person was born with what looked like a female body and was raised as female. This YouTuber mentioned not being like other girls growing up. Then, when this person turned 16 it was realized that puberty had never started and so doctors were consulted. It was found, after a large number of tests, that this person was genetically male and that there were non-functioning (underdeveloped) testes in the person's body (which were removed due to threat of cancer), no internal female organs, etc. The necessary amount of hormones were not being created, since the organs that would create those hormones did not exist in that person's body. So, tell me, what sex (or gender) is this person? And if the gender this person is claiming now is different than what you decided, does that mean they are the "wrong gender?"
As I said earlier there "are people born with abnormalities that may make it more difficult to determine their sex"

This person is a male. A male born with an abnormality. His circumstance is unfortunate.

There are zero genders - two sexes - and infinite personalities.
And to correct a possible mistake of yours, the best evidence is that transsexuals (at least those properly diagnosed) are a form of intersex. A number of animal studies have been done where, by manipulating the hormones at a critical stage of pre-natal development, that transsexual animals are created. Corresponding with this, it has been found in some tidal estuaries where large amounts of chemical pollutants, in particular fertilizers and pesticides that use estrogen as a major ingredient, there are a large number of animals (particularly birds) that exhibit transgender behavior, as the estrogens appear to be causing that transexual "birth defect."
I never claimed that an intersex person could not claim to be transgender - only that transgenderism has nothing to do with intersex.
Additionally, there have been a few studies of transsexuals where they do an autopsy on the brain and find that the brain structure aligns with the "sex" (or gender) the person claimed to be. In essence, they feel they are the opposite sex because of their brain and not because of "mental illness." It is also worth pointing out the most recent study particularly ensured the brains had not been influenced by the transsexual person taking hormones.
This is absurd.

Many things - not just the introduction of hormones - can affect our brains because they have evolved to adapt.

And the idea that you can examine a person's brain and therefore know what they "felt" or "thought" - [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is that?

Someone who has had altered brain chemistry or structure does not become a member of the opposite sex.
The best evidence is that transsexualism is a physical issue, not a mental one. The issue is that there are no real cures to this disease and the "cures" we have are wanting. Talk therapy and religion do not work well, they tend to lead to depression and shockingly high rates of suicide. Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) works better, and as pointed out have a higher "success" rate than many other types of surgery, but still isn't a "cure." As you point out, it makes the person appear as the gender they want to be (with varying degrees of success, it tends to be much more successful the earlier it is done) but does not actually make them that gender (no internal sexual organs, etc).
Why are you equating the concept of "gender" with their biology (internal sexual organs)?

Are you exposing your hand? Claiming that they are not the same one moment and then the same the next to confuse the terms?

Mental illnesses are just as much physical and psychological - which is why they give medication to people who suffer from mental illness.

The hormones and surgeries do not decrease rates of suicidality.
And while I stated that the earlier SRS is done, the better the results, that does not mean I support SRS on children. The professional standards have traditionally been that individuals must be 18 before any permanent, irreversible changes are made; though that has frequently been interpreted to mean surgery. One of the other, and perhaps the largest challenge, is how to accurately diagnose transsexualism; and the damage it can cause when misdiagnosed.
Surgeries are already being performed on children in the US.
You seem to have missed the point. In all of those cases, those cultures have largely been condemned, even by the majority of cultures in the world in those times.

On the other hand, even you don't seem to condemn transsexuals, you just think they need help with their issues. The point is that these other cultures had their own way of "helping" these people and turned them into productive members of their culture, and even made them important positions in their culture. This did not cause perversion or for everyone to suddenly become transsexual. Maybe there are even things we could learn from them, that if we don't try to force people who feel trapped by their gender to conform to a particularly viewpoint, that we can "cure" them and not have them go through the issues of depression. I'll also note that the goal of therapy, at least traditionally, with transgendered individuals is to always do the minimum that can be done to make the person feel at peace; to not do surgery or hormones unless it has to be done to help the person become who they feel they have to be.
I don't believe these situations you are referencing actually existed. Please share specific examples.
Since you are LDS, I'll point out there are plenty of Mormon (or former Mormon) transsexuals who have not found the peace, that you claim they should find, through Christ alone.
That does not mean that I am wrong.
I'll also note that the position of the Mormon Church toward transsexuals has gotten more "liberal" over time.
How so?
Last, I'll also state that I've heard stories (and I cannot verify them but heard them second hand from people who were in leadership positions -- Bishop or Stake President) of transsexuals who had SRS and were able, after interviews with General Authorities, to get endowed as their sex/gender after SRS.
Absolute nonsense.

In the Official Declaration "The Family - A Proclamation to the World" it says,

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

Meaning that we have always been a son or daughter of God and always will be - it does not change.

 
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Pommer

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Oh ok.

So, you believe that "grooming" and "sexual deviancy" are similar to pledging allegiance to the US flag?

Can you explain why that is?
I think we all grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag).
It’s a benign intrusion on freedom of thought, getting a core set of principles to adhere and cling to in times of crisis, we are all unified in our devotion to our land and the freedoms it safeguards for us, we, the people, and generally this is a “good thing”.

It can be a “less good thing” of the pledge is taken to mean that we ‘re already “good enough” without having to work things out, each, and every day.
We have a lot of work to do to rebuild our trust in our Institutions of governance, our Republic calls us, for help, are we to stand idly by, or make noise until the heat gets turned on?
 
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Zaha Torte

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I think we all grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag).
It’s a benign intrusion on freedom of thought, getting a core set of principles to adhere and cling to in times of crisis, we are all unified in our devotion to our land and the freedoms it safeguards for us, we, the people, and generally this is a “good thing”.

It can be a “less good thing” of the pledge is taken to mean that we ‘re already “good enough” without having to work things out, each, and every day.
We have a lot of work to do to rebuild our trust in our Institutions of governance, our Republic calls us, for help, are we to stand idly by, or make noise until the heat gets turned on?
OK - can you answer my question now?
 
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Pommer

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So, you believe that "grooming" and "sexual deviancy" are similar to pledging allegiance to the US flag?
I brought up another kind of indoctrination, the point being that the indoctrination of children into society is going to involve many differing aspects and facets, I see counselors who are advocates for children who happen to be LGBTQIA+ and others see “groomers”.

Can you explain why that is?
Because different (and myriad) indoctrinations take place all of the time in schools, some of it is detrimental, but we will disagree on which is which sometimes.
(No, I’m not championing “sexual deviancy”, either. That would likely be a forum no-no, to boot.)
 
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