spirit & soul = mind & consciousness?

[creslaw]

Paul talks about the separation between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12) and I have always wondered what this means.

Recently I have been listening to Dr Pim van Lommel and his experiences with patients who have had near death experiences. He describes the mind (brain) as a "transmitter" between consciousness and the body. When he talks about the experience a person has during a NDE, I can only think it is the person's soul that has left the body - this soul retains all the knowledge and memories of the mind, and I suppose the personality & character of the person.

I am just beginning to look into this idea so would be interested to read input from other Christians.

 

[salt-n-light]

Paul talks about the separation between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12) and I have always wondered what this means.

Recently I have been listening to Dr Pim van Lommel and his experiences with patients who have had near death experiences. He describes the mind (brain) as a "transmitter" between consciousness and the body. When he talks about the experience a person has during a NDE, I can only think it is the person's soul that has left the body - this soul retains all the knowledge and memories of the mind, and I suppose the personality & character of the person.

I am just beginning to look into this idea so would be interested to read input from other Christians.

The spirit leaves the body, not the soul. The soul is your entire being. The soul consists of your vessel and the spirit in which host the vessel, and them working together creates a living soul.They are distinct but work inseparably. When we die, its the spirit that returns back to God. And when we are given new glorious bodies, we become new souls.

So from that standpoint, no our memories don't follow us. Maybe our personality?

 

[creslaw]

The spirit leaves the body, not the soul. The soul is your entire being. The soul consists of your vessel and the spirit in which host the vessel, and them working together creates a living soul.They are distinct but work inseparably. When we die, its the spirit that returns back to God. And when we are given new glorious bodies, we become new souls.

So from that standpoint, no our memories don't follow us. Maybe our personality?

Interesting position. Are you able to substantiate that view with the teachings of Jesus and/or the apostles?

 

[mozo41]

the division of soul and spirit is only by perception ... in truth they are inseparable ...

 

[creslaw]

the division of soul and spirit is only by perception ... in truth they are inseparable ...

Then what is the mind in your view? Would you not say that the mind is the seat of our thoughts & feelings, our character & personality ... in other words the "youness" of you which makes a unique individual.

I am basing this discussion on what Paul said in Hebrews 4:12 when he referred to "the "dividing of soul and spirit".

 

[salt-n-light]

Interesting position. Are you able to substantiate that view with the teachings of Jesus and/or the apostles?

Well I got that understanding from Genesis, where its describe how we came to being.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit), and man became a living soul.

So soul exists because of the existence of both body and spirit. Therefore I'm not a soul if it void of the body or of spirit. I'm not a soul with my body alone, and I'm not a soul with only my spirit.

That's as far as my knowledge goes though since I've never truly researched deep into that subject. It would be something good to study on, but right now that's my understanding.

 

[mozo41]

yes .... understanding we are a spirit and have a soul ... our spirit being our sub-conscious mind and our soul being our conscious mind albeit ... our soul has no light light/life of its own but reflects the light/life .... think of your mind/soul as a garden and whatever is planted in it is what will grow in it... and why the scriptures speak of two seeds ... one of the serpent and one of the women ....

to understand this one has to keep ones women/soul quiet ....

 

[salt-n-light]

I think another view is that soul is "the middle man", so mind, will, and emotions. That what is more widely taught, but to me that's making soul as something separate, like I can lose my soul without losing my spirit or vessel, as opposed to the product of being alive, I lose it when I die, the vessel(body) goes back to the earth, and the spirit goes back to God.

I think that was the intent of how the Hebrews described a soul.

 

[mozo41]

I think another view is that soul is "the middle man", so mind, will, and emotions. That what is more taught, but to me that's making soul as something separate, like I can lose my soul without losing my spirit or vessel, as opposed to the product of being alive, I lose it when I die, the vessel(body) goes back to the earth, and the spirit goes back to God.

I think that was the intent of how the Hebrews described a soul.

true that ....our soul being the third part that fell from heaven and became corrupted by it ... our will and emotion being the other two parts that also become corrupted by this perception of separation ...

 

[tdidymas]

Paul talks about the separation between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12) and I have always wondered what this means.

Recently I have been listening to Dr Pim van Lommel and his experiences with patients who have had near death experiences. He describes the mind (brain) as a "transmitter" between consciousness and the body. When he talks about the experience a person has during a NDE, I can only think it is the person's soul that has left the body - this soul retains all the knowledge and memories of the mind, and I suppose the personality & character of the person.

I am just beginning to look into this idea so would be interested to read input from other Christians.

It doesn't say there is a separation between soul and spirit. It says "dividing of soul and spirit" - it means the soul/spirit being is divided, namely the separation is between good and evil inside the soul/spirit being. The context is confirmed by saying the word is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Good thoughts and intentions against evil thoughts and intentions, brought to light in the soul/spirit being. It applies to denial of self to become a follower of Christ.
TD

 

[Butch5]

Paul talks about the separation between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12) and I have always wondered what this means.

Recently I have been listening to Dr Pim van Lommel and his experiences with patients who have had near death experiences. He describes the mind (brain) as a "transmitter" between consciousness and the body. When he talks about the experience a person has during a NDE, I can only think it is the person's soul that has left the body - this soul retains all the knowledge and memories of the mind, and I suppose the personality & character of the person.

I am just beginning to look into this idea so would be interested to read input from other Christians.

The soul is not a conscious existence apart from the Body. That idea comes from Greek Philosophy. Genesis 2:7 explains how God created man. God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit (same word) of life and man became a living soul. So, man consists of the elements of the earth. That's what a man is. When God breathed something out of Himself, the breath/spirit of life into man, the man was transformed into a living soul. So a soul is a body with the breath/spirit of God. Man is a soul. The word soul is often translated as life in the Scriptures also. When Paul speaks of separating soul and spirit, it means that God is able to separate, His spirit from the life of a person. Without the breath/spirit of life man will die. Job said if God were to retrieve His spirit and His breath all flesh would die. Paul said that God gives (present tense) life to all things. Everything that lives is living because God is continuously giving it life. We are also told in Ecclesiastes that when a man dies the breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. When God retrieves His breath/spirit the soul ceases to exist as one of it's two components are gone. If you take away the breath/spirit you no longer have a soul. If you have water and you take away the hydrogen, you no longer have water, you have oxygen. So the soul, if you take away the breath/spirit you have only the man, the inanimate creation from the dust which returns to the earth.

I've studied this subject for several years and in quite some depth. I'd be happy to go through it with you if you'd like. I can also give you links to some very good teaching on this subject.

 

[salt-n-light]

The soul is not a conscious existence apart from the Body. That idea comes from Greek Philosophy. Genesis 2:7 explains how God created man. God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit (same word) of life and man became a living soul. So, man consists of the elements of the earth. That's what a man is. When God breathed something out of Himself, the breath/spirit of life into man, the man was transformed into a living soul. So a soul is a body with the breath/spirit of God. Man is a soul. The word soul is often translated as life in the Scriptures also. When Paul speaks of separating soul and spirit, it means that God is able to separate, His spirit from the life of a person. Without the breath/spirit of life man will die. Job said if God were to retrieve His spirit and His breath all flesh would die. Paul said that God gives (present tense) life to all things. Everything that lives is living because God is continuously giving it life. We are also told in Ecclesiastes that when a man dies the breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. When God retrieves His breath/spirit the soul ceases to exist as one of it's two components are gone. If you take away the breath/spirit you no longer have a soul. If you have water and you take away the hydrogen, you no longer have water, you have oxygen. So the soul, if you take away the breath/spirit you have only the man, the inanimate creation from the dust which returns to the earth.

I've studied this subject for several years and in quite some depth. I'd be happy to go through it with you if you'd like. I can also give you links to some very good teaching on this subject.

Ah I guess I got the reasoning down then lol

 

[salt-n-light]

.

 

[creslaw]

The soul is not a conscious existence apart from the Body. That idea comes from Greek Philosophy. Genesis 2:7 explains how God created man. God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit (same word) of life and man became a living soul. So, man consists of the elements of the earth. That's what a man is. When God breathed something out of Himself, the breath/spirit of life into man, the man was transformed into a living soul. So a soul is a body with the breath/spirit of God. Man is a soul. The word soul is often translated as life in the Scriptures also. When Paul speaks of separating soul and spirit, it means that God is able to separate, His spirit from the life of a person. Without the breath/spirit of life man will die. Job said if God were to retrieve His spirit and His breath all flesh would die. Paul said that God gives (present tense) life to all things. Everything that lives is living because God is continuously giving it life. We are also told in Ecclesiastes that when a man dies the breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. When God retrieves His breath/spirit the soul ceases to exist as one of it's two components are gone. If you take away the breath/spirit you no longer have a soul. If you have water and you take away the hydrogen, you no longer have water, you have oxygen. So the soul, if you take away the breath/spirit you have only the man, the inanimate creation from the dust which returns to the earth.

I've studied this subject for several years and in quite some depth. I'd be happy to go through it with you if you'd like. I can also give you links to some very good teaching on this subject.

I am mostly interested in trying to reconcile the use of the words "soul" (psyche) and "spirit" (pneuma) as they are used in the New Testament.

 

[Butch5]

I am mostly interested in trying to reconcile the use of the words "soul" (psyche) and "spirit" (pneuma) as they are used in the New Testament.

The best way to do that is to start with the OT. The first usage of words in the Bible set a precedence. They give a base understanding on which to build a further understanding of the words. The word that is translated spirit in the OT is Neshamah or ruach and in the NT it is pneuma. However, remember that "spirit" is a metaphor and not the actual meaning of pneuma. The actual meaning is wind or breath. So, when you see these words translated spirit, it's figure of speech. The problem is that people have this idea that a spirit is a disembodied conscious essence and they import this idea in to the word spirit when they see it in Scripture. This idea then becomes their definition of the word rather than the metaphor that it is.

 

[Butch5]

Ah I guess I got the reasoning down then lol

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Hank77]

The best way to do that is to start with the OT. The first usage of words in the Bible set a precedence. They give a base understanding on which to build a further understanding of the words. The word that is translated spirit in the OT is Neshamah or ruach and in the NT it is pneuma. However, remember that "spirit" is a metaphor and not the actual meaning of pneuma. The actual meaning is wind or breath. So, when you see these words translated spirit, it's figure of speech. The problem is that people have this idea that a spirit is a disembodied conscious essence and they import this idea in to the word spirit when they see it in Scripture. This idea then becomes their definition of the word rather than the metaphor that it is.

Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Grieve not the 'breathe of God." I don't know how to understand that.

 

[creslaw]

The best way to do that is to start with the OT. The first usage of words in the Bible set a precedence. They give a base understanding on which to build a further understanding of the words. The word that is translated spirit in the OT is Neshamah or ruach and in the NT it is pneuma. However, remember that "spirit" is a metaphor and not the actual meaning of pneuma. The actual meaning is wind or breath. So, when you see these words translated spirit, it's figure of speech. The problem is that people have this idea that a spirit is a disembodied conscious essence and they import this idea in to the word spirit when they see it in Scripture. This idea then becomes their definition of the word rather than the metaphor that it is.

I am now wondering what you think happens when we die - you seem to be saying that neither the soul nor the spirit continue to exist as a conscious individual entity when the body is dead.

 

[Butch5]

Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Grieve not the 'breathe of God." I don't know how to understand that.

Here is Strong's definition of the word Pneuma. Bolding is mine.

from <G4154> (pneo); a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

If you understand the passage with the word spirit, but not with the word breath, I have to ask, what are you importing into the word spirit? The literal definition is wind or breath. Spirit is a figurative usage.

 

[Butch5]

I am now wondering what you think happens when we die - you seem to be saying that neither the soul nor the spirit continue to exist as a conscious individual entity when the body is dead.

The soul doesn't continue on when a man dies. It is composed of two components. One of those is the breath/spirit of God. That breath/spirit returns to God when a man dies. Once it leaves the man (body) the man is no longer a soul. The breath/spirit continues on because it is a part of God. It is simply that which animates the man. I use the analogy of a computer. One can build a computer and with an operating system. However, until electricity is applied to the computer it is an inanimate object. Once the electricity is applied it can do many complex operations. But, take away the electricity and it is once again just an inanimate object. in this analogy, the man is the computer and the electricity is the breath/spirit of God. When the computer has electricity is like the living soul. Take away the electricity and the computer is dead.

18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals."
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? (Eccl. 3:18-21 NKJ)

Here Solomon tells us what happens at death. Notice that both man and animal have one spirit. They have the same spirit. It is the breath/spirit of life. The Scriptures refer to the animals as souls also. Notice also that he says the same thing happens to both and that man has no advantage over the animals in death. They all go to one place, that is they return to the dust. The spirit/breath in man returns to God, the spirit of the animals doesn't.