Southern Baptist adding Nicene Creed to Baptist Faith and Message

[St. Helens]

I am in a small reformed Baptist church. We have the Nicene Creed as part of our Statement of faith. Much of our Elder Affirmation of Faith is taken from the Westminster Catechism. I believe this kind of thing is a pushback against theological wishy washieness entering many of the churches.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am in a small reformed Baptist church. We have the Nicene Creed as part of our Statement of faith. Much of our Elder Affirmation of Faith is taken from the Westminster Catechism. I believe this kind of thing is a pushback against theological wishy washieness entering many of the churches.

Martin and Deidre Bobgan call that "psychoheresy."

Defined as the intrusion of psychological teachings and philosophy into church doctrine.

 

[jas3]

saying that Jesus was "begotten of the Father before all ages" because He was with God and was God in the beginning. "Begotten" refers to His incarnation in that He became a man,

Would you be open to this statement if "begotten" were understood to indicate the way in which the Son relates eternally to the Father?

 

[B Griffin]

Was/is the Creed in the responsive reading portion of the Baptist Hymnal? (I can't recall).
My wife's family were Methodists and I do recall it being in their hymnal.

I never saw any responsive reading sections in a Baptist Hymnal, not that I can remember at least.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It has been proposed that the Nicene Creed be added to the Baptist Faith and Message.
Do you have an opinion either way?

As a former Independent Baptist (I grew up there) turned Southern Baptist (30+ years before becoming Orthodox), Just curious.

[Quoting the article, sic]
Andrew Brown, Stephen Lorance, Steve McKinion and Malcolm Yarnell broke the news on X (formerly Twitter) May 29 with a teaser and a link to their proposed amendment to the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message.

Quite simply, they propose adding the full text of the Nicene Creed as Article XIX to the 2000 statement of faith.

In case you are not familiar with the Nicene Creed, it reads as follows:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father. By him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he descended from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again, in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and his Kingdom shall have no end.... (continues)

Speaking as a former SBC affiliate myself, I'm not sure how adding the Nicene Creed protects SBC identity. They can add it, but I don't think their doing so removes other philosophical or theological issues that sill bear upon their problems and impose additional overarching and impinging complications.

 

[FenderTL5]

I never saw any responsive reading sections in a Baptist Hymnal, not that I can remember at least.

I remembered i still have a copy of the Baptist Hymnal (copyright 1991).
I checked, it does have responsive readings.

It does NOT have the Creed.

As an aside.. way off to the side.. I was surprised to see the last numbered hymn was number 666. I think if I were the publisher I'd traet that number like 13 in a building and just skip it.

 

[B Griffin]

Would you be open to this statement if "begotten" were understood to indicate the way in which the Son relates eternally to the Father?

No. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has a lengthy article on the Greek word translated "only begotten". It has an explanation of the word itself (see below) near the beginning of the article and a paragraph near the end (see below) that supports the Creed's wording and your understanding of it.

Explanation of the Word "μονογενὴς" ("only begotten")

​

The word does not occur in Homer but is attested from the time of Hesiod. In compounds like διο-γενής, γη-γενής, εὐ-γενής, συγ-γενής the -γενής suggests derivation (γένος) rather than birth. Nouns as the first part of the compound give the source, e.g., from Zeus, the earth. Adverbs describe the nature of the derivation, e.g., noble or common. μονο-γενής is to be explained along the lines of εὐγενής rather than διο-γενής. The μονο- does not denote the source but the nature of derivation. Hence μονογενής means “of sole descent,” i.e., without brothers or sisters. This gives us the sense of only-begotten. The ref. is to the only child of one’s parents, primarily in relation to them. μονογενής is stronger than μόνος, for it denotes that they have never had more than this child. But the word can also be used more generally without ref. to derivation in the sense of “unique,” “unparalleled,” “incomparable,” though one should not confuse the refs. to class or species5 and to manner. [Büchsel, F. (1964–). μονογενής. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 4, pp. 737–738). Eerdmans.]​

Paragraph in Support of the Nicene Creed

What Jn. means by ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός in detail can be known in its full import only in the light of the whole of John’s proclamation. For ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is simply a special form of ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ. When Jn. speaks of the Son of God, he has primarily in view the man Jesus Christ, though not exclusively the man, but also the risen and pre-existent Lord. The relation of the pre-existent Lord to God is that of Son to Father. This comes out indisputably in 17:5, 24. Jesus is aware that He was with God, and was loved by Him, and endued with glory, before the foundation of the world. This is personal fellowship with God, divine sonship. It is true that neither in the prologue, nor 8:58, nor c. 17 does Jn. use the term “son” for the pre-existent Lord. But He describes His relation to God as that of a son. To maintain that in Jn. the pre-existent Lord is only the Word, and that the Son is only the historical and risen Lord, is to draw too sharp a line between the pre-existence on the one side and the historical and post-historical life on the other. In Jn. the Lord is always the Son. Because He alone was God’s Son before the foundation of the world, because the whole love of the Father is for Him alone, because He alone is one with God, because the title God may be ascribed to Him alone, He is the only-begotten Son of God. [Büchsel, F. (1964–). μονογενής. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 4, p. 741). Eerdmans.]​

The only evidence Büchsel cited to support the Creed's claim that Jesus was "begotten" before creation is Jesus' prayer recorded in John 17 where He refers to God as "Father" and talks about "the glory which I had with You before the world was" (Jn 17:5) and "for You loved Me before the foundation of the world" (Jn 17:24). In my opinion, the fact that Jesus knew on earth that He was God prior to when He created everything is not enough evidence to disassociate "begotten" and the incarnation and move it to eternity past.

 

[B Griffin]

I remembered i still have a copy of the Baptist Hymnal (copyright 1991).
I checked, it does have responsive readings.

It does NOT have the Creed.


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As an aside.. way off to the side.. I was surprised to see the last numbered hymn was number 666. I think if I were the publisher I'd traet that number like 13 in a building and just skip it.

Interesting. I don't remember it, but then there's the evidence. Can you look in the front? I think all "Baptist Hymnals" are published bt the Southern Baptist Convention". I think I remember that green cover with gold writing.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has a lengthy article on the Greek word translated "only beotten".

A dog begets a dog.

A giraffe begets a giraffe.

God begets God.

 

[B Griffin]

Interesting. I don't remember it, but then there's the evidence. Can you look in the front? I think all "Baptist Hymnals" are published bt the Southern Baptist Convention". I think I remember that green cover with gold writing.

Is Hymn 501 "til the storm passes by"?

 

[B Griffin]

A dog begets a dog.

A giraffe begets a giraffe.

God begets God.

The problem, of course, is that Jesus/God did not come into existance, but always was.

 

[AV1611VET]

The problem, of course, is that Jesus/God did not come into existance, but always was.

True.

And that's where looking at it from this side of the fence breaks down.

No dictionary on Earth can do the word "begotten" justice, when it comes to God.

 

[FenderTL5]

Interesting. I don't remember it, but then there's the evidence. Can you look in the front? I think all "Baptist Hymnals" are published bt the Southern Baptist Convention". I think I remember that green cover with gold writing.

Convention Press and the preface makes certain that the convention is the SBC.

Is Hymn 501 "til the storm passes by"?

It's not.
I remember that song but I don't see it listed here.. but several are identified by the first line and not what I would consider the title.

 

[B Griffin]

Convention Press and the preface makes certain that the convention is the SBC.

It's not.
I remember that song but I don't see it listed here.. but several are identified by the first line and not what I would consider the title.

I remember it was Pastor Homer Lindsay Jr's favorite song. As it turns out, a little research showed that we were not using the Baptist Hymnal at the time.

 

[RileyG]

Well, for a long time, the Southern Baptists were halfway decent (well, at least during the 20th century to recently). Nowadays, some are becoming LGBT affirming. I pray that these churches use discernment, and do not condone sins.

https://www.npr.org/2016/08/28/490631244/when-his-son-came-out-as-gay-this-pastor-delivered-a-sermon-of-support

Are you thinking of the American Baptist Church? NOT the same as the Southern Baptist Convention.

Regardless, they do not have an official hierarchy (as a Catholic or Orthodox would understand it), so I wouldn't be surprised if some congregations are LGBT affirming.

 

[RileyG]

We consider baptism an ordinance, not a sacrament.

Thanks for the info!

 

[AlexB23]

Are you thinking of the American Baptist Church? NOT the same as the Southern Baptist Convention.

Regardless, they do not have an official hierarchy (as a Catholic or Orthodox would understand it), so I wouldn't be surprised if some congregations are LGBT affirming.

Oops, I am not that good with the different subdenominations. But yes, a lot of churches are becoming transgender affirming, and it is scary. Will churches soon allow people to get drunk, or smoke? Churches are becoming worldly.

 

[RileyG]

Oops, I am not that good with the different subdenominations. But yes, a lot of churches are becoming transgender affirming, and it is scary. Will churches soon allow people to get drunk, or smoke? Churches are becoming worldly.

It appears that pastor and his family moved from the Southern Baptist Convention to a LGBT-affirming non-denominational Church.

 

[AlexB23]

It appears that pastor and his family moved from the Southern Baptist Convention to a LGBT-affirming non-denominational Church.

We should pray for the pastor, his family, and kids that they rethink this decision, and go to a church that follows the Bible and church history, and not this modern stuff.

 

[RileyG]

We should pray for the pastor, his family, and kids that they rethink this decision, and go to a church that follows the Bible and church history, and not this modern stuff.

Amen.

May God bless the Southern Baptist Church, the American Baptist Church, and all Independent Baptist Churches.