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Some Eastern Orthodox thoughts on evolution

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Vance

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Here are some bits and pieces from Eastern Orthodoxy (who revere the early church fathers more than anyone else, for those who tend to base their theology on such teaching) regarding evolution and science that you might be interested in:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/ort_creation.htm

and:

The Rt. Rev. Maximos Aghiorgoussis, Th.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh writes, "Among the visible things that God created is the crown of His creation, man. In Genesis we read the story of God's creation. We cannot interpret this story to the letter; however, its message is loud and clear: God is the creator of everything that exists; there is order in God's creation, and a development (even "evolution") from lower forms to higher forms of life; God created everything good; man, created in God's image and likeness, has a very special place in God's creation, called to be God's proxy toward His creation."
An article by Rev. George Mastrantonis seems to be no longer available on the website. In the article, Rev. Mastrantonis stated, "The theory of evolution does not contradict the existence of a Supreme Intelligent Being. It does not dismiss the existence of God with a Design and Purpose for the Creation. The Judaic-Christian concept of God accepts any truth from any aspect of life without fear of losing its faith in God as a Supreme Intelligent Being" Rev. Mastrantonis does express some concern regarding any concept of evolution which excludes a creator.

and here:

In answer to a question, Fr. John Matusiak states, "Orthodoxy is not literalist in its understanding of the accounts of creation in Genesis, and I have encountered writings by Orthodox Christians which attempt to balance the creation accounts with a certain ongoing -- evolutionary, if you will -- process which, on the one hand, affirms that while humans may have evolved physically under the direction and guidance and plan of the Creator, their souls could not have evolved any more than the powers of reasoning, speaking, or the ability to act creatively could have simply evolved. In such a scenario the Creator intervened by breathing His Spirit into man and giving him life, as stated in Genesis...Orthodoxy has no problem with evolution as a scientific theory, only with evolution -- as some people may view it -- eliminating the need for God as Creator of All."



And here, although the qoute is not cited:




The Greek Orthodox Church (the oldest) does accept evolution as fact and attributes this "Six Day Creationism" that is limited mainly to the United States to mistranslation and politics. Quoting one Eastern Orthodox writer:

The reason for the persistence of the fundamentalists, which makes this not merely a privately held belief, is social. It is only in our current situation of fin de siecle (the end of the age) that it became possible to come into open conflict with scientific data. At the end of this century statements contrary to science have become fashionable. Astrologers, fortunetellers, magicians, and other occultists are free to say the most bizarre things. It seems that people are tired of scientific sobriety and responsibility and are ready to accept anything — "Why not?" The purest form of voluntarism and irrationality takes the place of argumentation: "This is what I feel! This is so exciting!" This massive ecstasy by irrationality makes also Protestant literalness completely into sellable goods... Views and opinions of radical creationists can not be accepted because they use scientific data in an arbitrary and non-objective way, by which they produce fair objections from those who are professionally involved in science. There is a real danger here that a biologist, having read some arrogant creationist book, will apply the word "rubbish" to Christianity in general.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/evolution_debate.htm

and another:

"Over 120 years have passed since the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of the Species. While some scientists still agree with Darwin’s theory of the changeability of species, much discovery has been done since then to create doubt and suspicion among them. The conflict between creationism and evolution has been primarily a struggle between Roman Catholics and Protestants, on the one hand, with scientists, on the other. You will find very little writing in Orthodox Christian circles.
Primarily this is because the Eastern Fathers, generally speaking, did not take a fundamentalist viewpoint of creation. For example, Vladimir Lossky, a great Orthodox theologian of the past century, says in his famous book, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, “The Church always freely makes use of philosophy and the sciences for apologetic (explanatory) purposes, but she never has any cause to defend these relative and changing truths as she defends the unchangeable truth of her doctrines.”

Eastern Orthodox theology finds not real argument with evolution up to the creation of man. And even in that, there is a possibility of accepting some of what has been discovered and continues to be discovered by science. For example, Moses, the author of the Book of Genesis, is writing to illiterate people who are asking some sobering questions while they are wandering all over the Sinai desert for some forty years. He uses a picture language and frames of reference with which they can identify. Nonetheless, the language does not take away from the meaning.

With the exception of verses 11, 12 and 13 of chapter one, the Genesis version follows basically along the theory of evolution.

Creation of Man

There are two references to the creation of man in Genesis. The first one is the simple statement made in verse 26 of chapter one:

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in Our own image, after Our likeness…” and is restated in verse 27: “So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

The second reference is in chapter two, verse 7:

“Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

In Orthodox theology, the two words ”image” and “likeness” are not used interchangeably as they are for Roman Catholics and Protestants. For Orthodox Christians, “image” denotes the powers and faculties with which every human being is endowed by God from the first moment of his existence. “Likeness” is the assimilation, the growth process to God through virtue and grace. We call this growth process “theosis.” For Western theology, man was created perfect in the absolute sense and therefore, when he fell, he fell completely away from God. For Orthodox theology, man was created perfect in the potential sense.

Thus, for example, Ireneus, a Church Father of the Second century, in speaking about creation of Adam and Eve says, “They were a child not yet having their understanding perfected.”

Father John Romanides, a contemporary Orthodox theologian says “Adam and Eve were two children born who were protected by nature and the animal world through the Holy Spirit.”

Did we evolve from the water? The infant does live a period of development in his mother’s womb which is a liquid world. It is only outside the mother’s womb that the lungs breathe as they were designed to breathe and function.

Did we evolve from animals? Ancient men did not look like us. In fact, they might shudder to see the form and the appearance we, their descendents, have taken!

Even Modern Science agrees that at some point man took on something that made him different from the animal world … he became a rational being (think, discern, evaluate, decide and act).

Should Modern Science be able to prove without the shadow of a doubt that man evolved from amoeba, reptiles, animal life into what he is today, Orthodox theology would be able to make the transitional acceptance far more readily than Western theology for all the reasons stated above.

Plantlife dies! Animal life dies! Man dies, too! But he goes on living! We cannot ask “Where we came from?” without asking “Where are we going?”

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/nicozisin_creationism.htm
 
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Vance

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Still no YEC response. Some had indicated that the early fathers were so clear and uniform that those who accept the early fathers as authoritative would have to reject evolution. But some of those who place the early fathers in the highest esteem, the eastern orthodox, do not have a problem with evolution.
 
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Vance

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Well, there are two who have been arguing strongly for the authority of the early fathers. Matthew is aware of these fellow Orthodox writers, and rightly points out that there are Orthodox on both sides of this issue (which tends to prove my point, I think). SBG is the other, even though he is not Orthodox. The point for him is that these folks hold the early fathers in even higher esteem, and with greater authority, than he does (or at least AS much), and yet they don't seem to have a problem with evolution.
 
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PaladinValer

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As an Anglican, there is Authority, I believe, in the ECFs. However, it is in the matter of doctrine and faith, not in science. They are not scientists, and to treat them as such is illogical (and, IMO, extremely disrespectful).

Just because St. Augustine of Hippo didn't know of evolution doesn't mean evolution isn't possible. To argue such (as both have implied) is both the Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance and Fallacy of Appealing to Authority. Based on what St. Augustine of Hippo, I must say, if he were have lived today, he would probably have been a TE, based solely on his writings.
 
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Vance

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Yes Paladin, I agree with everything you say, except maybe the degree of authority given, but that is simply a matter of degree. I give all the great thinkers and leaders of Church a great deal of respect, whether it be Augustine, Aquinas, Luther or great theologians of today like NT Wright. But you are exactly right, to hold them out as authorities on the HOW of God created is where the problem lies.

And the disrespect angle is a good point. Can you imagine all of them coming forward today, especially the ones like Augustine or Origen, who would very likely accept modern scientific conclusions, and finding out that their statements were being promoted as advocacy of maintaining the level of scientific thought of their own day?! I think they would be mighty put out.
 
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Maccie

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Vance, do you honestly believe that any YEC is going to read anything that might go against their beliefs?? If it goes against their beliefs, then its unchristian, or maybe from the Devil. If its from the Devil, or unchristian, then they wouldn't read it, would they??

A fine example of circular unreason!
 
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Vance

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Maccie said:
Vance, do you honestly believe that any YEC is going to read anything that might go against their beliefs?? If it goes against their beliefs, then its unchristian, or maybe from the Devil. If its from the Devil, or unchristian, then they wouldn't read it, would they??

A fine example of circular unreason!

Yes, that is why I find it useful to quote fellow Christians (assuming that the reader accepts Eastern Orthodox as Christian, since I have heard some of them in my own church say that Catholics are not truly Christian).

But honestly, I have very little hope of changing the mind of any YEC on this forum. But, for those Christians who come to lurk on this forum and are in a crisis of faith because they have now discovered the evidence for evolution and an old earth, but have not yet heard that this can be compatible with true Christianity, this message can be, and HAS BEEN, very helpful. The more Christians realize that the Creation accounts and the flood account can be read other than as strict literal history, the fewer who will face this crisis of faith.
 
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Matthew777

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The following exposition was written by the archbishop of my Church.
Please comment on anything that strikes you:

Theology of Nature: An Introduction
Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios

The author. Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios of the Orthodox Syrian Church of the East is an internationally-renowned theologian and former President of the World Council of Churches. He has published a number of books on development, and on the relationship of God, man and creation.

This article was first published in Dictionary of the Ecumenical Movement, WCC Publications, Geneva, 1991.
http://www.goarch.org/print/en/ourfaith/article8045.asp

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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1denomination

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Maccie said:
Vance, do you honestly believe that any YEC is going to read anything that might go against their beliefs?? If it goes against their beliefs, then its unchristian, or maybe from the Devil. If its from the Devil, or unchristian, then they wouldn't read it, would they??

A fine example of circular unreason!??.
Carefull thats kinda offensive. Of course Im one of those YEC people so what do I know.

Vance said:
But honestly, I have very little hope of changing the mind of any YEC on this forum.
Brother dont give up faith. You helped change my mind. Maybe not about YEC as my origins belief, but about how how unimportant it is. Which btw is what you say you after.God bless.:thumbsup:
 
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SBG

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The welcome reception here has kept me from posting my thoughts on your topic, such statements as:

"Vance, do you honestly believe that any YEC is going to read anything that might go against their beliefs?? If it goes against their beliefs, then its unchristian, or maybe from the Devil. If its from the Devil, or unchristian, then they wouldn't read it, would they??

A fine example of circular unreason!"

and

"As an Anglican, there is Authority, I believe, in the ECFs. However, it is in the matter of doctrine and faith, not in science. They are not scientists, and to treat them as such is illogical (and, IMO, extremely disrespectful).

Just because St. Augustine of Hippo didn't know of evolution doesn't mean evolution isn't possible. To argue such (as both have implied) is both the Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance and Fallacy of Appealing to Authority. Based on what St. Augustine of Hippo, I must say, if he were have lived today, he would probably have been a TE, based solely on his writings."

It is the yec who is closed-minded, yet te's don't listen to what yec's say.... It is yec who appeals to authority with the Apostles, Church Fathers and Jesus, yet te's appeal to scientists and it is called wisdom...A lot of yec's were evolutionists following evolutionism, but we are the ones who are again closed minded...There is no point to a true response to your accusations, misrepresentations, and appeals to scientists and liberal theologians, for you don't care about the response, but rather are looking to argue. The above statements by maccie and palidan show that.

And yes Palidan, I am terrified.
 
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PaladinValer

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SBG,

1. Probably because a lot of YEC arguments rely on either inaccurate information and logical fallacies
2. Appealing to the Church Fathers as if they know of modern knowledge is a logical fallacy. A TE who uses a biologist as evidence about a subject on biology isn't. Why? Because the latter is truly a valid authority; the former isn't.
3. A lot of YECs didn't understand evolution in the first place. Every single one so far I've met, with perhaps one or two exception, buys into some rediculous tidbit of falsity, such as "evolution says humans evolved from apes" or "evolution says we all came from ooze" or "evolution says that a saber-tooth tiger's offspring can be a modern tiger" (the last being an example; its inaccuracy isn't the point), etc.

If you were to come with an argument that is,

1. Logically valid
2. Based on a valid source (ie, a biologist on a biological subject)
3. Doesn't rely on some lie about what evolution teaches

...then I don't see why any TE (or anyone regardless of their view) would have a problem.

And it would be who of you to at least spell a person's name correctly.
 
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theotherguy

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PaladinValer said:
"evolution says humans evolved from apes" or "evolution says we all came from ooze" or "evolution says that a saber-tooth tiger's offspring can be a modern tiger"

I'm not trying to satrt an arguement here, but I thought thats exactly what evolution says about life. Complex from the simple?
 
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Vance

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theotherguy said:
I'm not trying to satrt an arguement here, but I thought thats exactly what evolution says about life. Complex from the simple?

Actually, no, that is not something that is absolute in evolution. All that happens is that each population (gene pool) becomes better adapted to it's environment by way of genetic drift, genetic mutation, etc, acted upon by natural selection. The only constant is change toward better adaptability (if needed), which is very often toward greater complexity in the long run, but not necessarily. Some of the most successful species on the planet have always been the LEAST complex. If a simple species is highly successful, there is absolutely no evolutionary pressures to become more complex.

Very often it is a trade off. Almost every change comes at a price and, unless that change results in ENOUGH benefit to the population, the change will not come to dominate the gene pool and effect a permanent change.
 
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PaladinValer

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I really, really wish biology teaches in both Middle/Jr. High and High Schools took the time to teach the theory of evolution in a way that students understand the facts about it, so they can ask questions about it, so that lies and misleading information about it can be exposed and disproven, and so that students comprehend it in a meaningful way.

I also wish all science classroom teaches, every year at the start of the year, semester, term, etc., reexplain what science is and isn't so that there is no change for forgetting.
 
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Vance

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On this same issue, I think it was calculated that the very large majority of living mass on this planet is made up of the simplest forms of life. It seems that life only becomes more complex if it must. I guess God made sure the conditions existed in which it "must" then.
 
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SBG

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Let it be known, my wife teaches 7th grade Biology. She is a biologists, who has done research, DNA cloning, and participated in a peer-reviewed, published, scientific paper on the death cell.

In her class, when she did evolution, she went through it quickly and exposed it for what it is, garbage in garbage out. In the book it first starts off saying spontaneous generation doesn't happen, the next chapter says it does. Word for word. And she made this fact known to the kids in all of her classes.

I am very proud of her and her stance for God in such an anti-God environment.

I assume now, that you all will insult my wife.
 
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Vance

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That is not surprising about the textbook. They have been notoriously bad about giving accurate information. Good thing she spotted it.

Can you get me the information about the textbook? Someone in another thread was pointing out this very phenomenon, and someone asked for examples. Maybe you can quote the two conflicting texts in their context.
 
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