So Agape is not higher love than Phileo? What the heck?

[seeker2122]

Growing up I've always learned or been taught that agape love is the highest form of love because
it is divine and unconditional love.

Phileo love is more like the maximum capacity humans are able to love which is like brotherly love.
(Eros is romantic and Storge is familial).

But recent research I've come across says that agape and phileo love are actually the same and interchanged all
the time in the NT. I was stunned to see that in the greek, it was true! Phileo is used in the place of agape and
agape used in the place of phileo interchangeably!

Any thoughts? Agreements or disagreements? I still want to believe agape is the highest form of love and phileo is right under it.
That is why when the scriptures says they know me by your love for one another means when you agape one another, the world
will know you are my followers because humans can't agape one another unless they have Christ' love in them which is agape love.
That's how you'd know for sure they aren't just showing conditional love but unconditional/divine love which can only come from
the source of Christ' love.

 

[johnnie4jesus]

agape love is the highest form of love the same kind of love we give is like that of the LORD JESUS CHRIST we love as HE loves us and them how can the other love be even greater than what really all us christian's too toward's each other?

 

[seeker2122]

agape love is the highest form of love the same kind of love we give is like that of the LORD JESUS CHRIST we love as HE loves us and them how can the other love be even greater than what really all us christian's too toward's each other?

agreed that is generally what I believed and was taught and still believe it but I've come across information from the greek text that phileo and agape are used a lot interchangeably with no significant difference in meaning. That was quite surprising to me! So based on that, many are saying that phileo is the same as agape. That just confused me even more.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

But recent research I've come across says that agape and phileo love are actually the same and interchanged all
the time in the NT. I was stunned to see that in the greek, it was true! Phileo is used in the place of agape and
agape used in the place of phileo interchangeably!

I must've missed that. Care to provide some passages as examples?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Growing up I've always learned or been taught that agape love is the highest form of love because
it is divine and unconditional love.

Phileo love is more like the maximum capacity humans are able to love which is like brotherly love.
(Eros is romantic and Storge is familial).

But recent research I've come across says that agape and phileo love are actually the same and interchanged all
the time in the NT. I was stunned to see that in the greek, it was true! Phileo is used in the place of agape and
agape used in the place of phileo interchangeably!

Any thoughts? Agreements or disagreements? I still want to believe agape is the highest form of love and phileo is right under it.
That is why when the scriptures says they know me by your love for one another means when you agape one another, the world
will know you are my followers because humans can't agape one another unless they have Christ' love in them which is agape love.
That's how you'd know for sure they aren't just showing conditional love but unconditional/divine love which can only come from
the source of Christ' love.

In reading the Greek Interlinnear, John 21:15-25, there is a distinction between Jesus Christ of Nazareth and Simon Peter when talking about love. Christ said "love me more" vs Peter saying "love". It is translated agape when Christ speaks and phileo when Peter speaks. So there certainly seems to be a distinction.
Agape = love
Phileo= fond
Blessings.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

In reading the Greek Interlinnear, John 21:15-25, there is a distinction between Jesus Christ of Nazareth and Simon Peter when talking about love. Christ said "love me more" vs Peter saying "love". It is translated agape when Christ speaks and phileo when Peter speaks. So there certainly seems to be a distinction.
Agape = love
Phileo= fond
Blessings.

This is what first came to mind for me.

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the Greeks, notably Aristotle, phileo was the highest form of love. Christianity, by contrast, has historically argued that agape is the loftiest. In fact, Christian writings, including (but not exclusively) the New Testament has (from what I've read) some of the highest numbers of the use of the word "agape". To the point that it's been said that Christians really took hold of this word and imbued it with a specifically Christian meaning.

So God's love toward us is called agape, and thus the call of the Christian is to demonstrate and show agape in imitation of God's agape.

Aristotle's argument was that phileo is the greater for it arises from intentional bonds; for one can have familial affection for one's brother on the basis of blood (storge) but phileo says to another, "You shall be my brother" and thus phileo finds a bond thicker than blood. Christians, having become brothers and sisters by our bonds of peace in Christ, are naturally therefore called to have phileo. But through our phileo (bonds of love), through our storge (bonds of family), through our eros (bonds of marriage) should be a through-line of agape. That love which is beheld in God giving Himself away by giving us Christ who bore our weakness, shame, suffering, and death for our sake.

It is agape which the Apostle champions as the greatest of the three holy virtues, the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians being dedicated to the greatness of agape.

It's not that phileo and agape are in any kind of competition, but that agape should shine through phileo, agape is demonstrated in our phileo toward one another. Agape is demonstrated in how we live and act in this world as God's children, how we treat others, in how we regard others and think about others.

Agape is the through-line that is to touch everything we say and do as Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[seeker2122]

I must've missed that. Care to provide some passages as examples?

Some examples like: John 5:20 (The Father phileos the Son). John 11:13 and 11:36 (Jesus phileo Lazarus)...one would think he would agape him.
John 16:27 - God the Father phileos the disciples because the disciples phileo Jesus.

There are a lot of websites that pointed stuff like this out about who phileo and agape are synonyms and used interchangeably even though
most of us thought agape was some higher form of love (which I still hold to that belief just because I want to lol).

I won't post the links to the articles cuz there are a lot but if you just do a google search of "agape and phileo love" you'll come across a bunch that says things like, "let's stop analyzing agape and phileo" or "agape and phileo the truth about the words" etc.

 

[seeker2122]

In reading the Greek Interlinnear, John 21:15-25, there is a distinction between Jesus Christ of Nazareth and Simon Peter when talking about love. Christ said "love me more" vs Peter saying "love". It is translated agape when Christ speaks and phileo when Peter speaks. So there certainly seems to be a distinction.
Agape = love
Phileo= fond
Blessings.

Yes, that is the passage that definitely convinced me that agape and phileo are distinct and agape is Christ love or God's perfect unconditional love and phileo is more human love or brotherly affection. So I agree with that passage. It just surprised me though that in other parts of the gospels, especially in John, he uses phileo as if it should have been agape. Did John make a mistake in using phileo instead of agape? Why would God only phileo Jesus and not agape him? Strange that phileo is used quite a lot in places one would think should be agape, and agape was replaced with phileo in a lot of places one would think should be agape.

 

[seeker2122]

According to the Greeks, notably Aristotle, phileo was the highest form of love. Christianity, by contrast, has historically argued that agape is the loftiest. In fact, Christian writings, including (but not exclusively) the New Testament has (from what I've read) some of the highest numbers of the use of the word "agape". To the point that it's been said that Christians really took hold of this word and imbued it with a specifically Christian meaning.

So God's love toward us is called agape, and thus the call of the Christian is to demonstrate and show agape in imitation of God's agape.

Aristotle's argument was that phileo is the greater for it arises from intentional bonds; for one can have familial affection for one's brother on the basis of blood (storge) but phileo says to another, "You shall be my brother" and thus phileo finds a bond thicker than blood. Christians, having become brothers and sisters by our bonds of peace in Christ, are naturally therefore called to have phileo. But through our phileo (bonds of love), through our storge (bonds of family), through our eros (bonds of marriage) should be a through-line of agape. That love which is beheld in God giving Himself away by giving us Christ who bore our weakness, shame, suffering, and death for our sake.

It is agape which the Apostle champions as the greatest of the three holy virtues, the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians being dedicated to the greatness of agape.

It's not that phileo and agape are in any kind of competition, but that agape should shine through phileo, agape is demonstrated in our phileo toward one another. Agape is demonstrated in how we live and act in this world as God's children, how we treat others, in how we regard others and think about others.

Agape is the through-line that is to touch everything we say and do as Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

Very informative thank you. I believe this is the answer I want to accept! So that's why John probably used phileo so often instead of agape. I didn't know Greeks considered phileo the highest love....in that context I can see why John was still referring to the highest love in phileo even though agape is ultimately Christ/God love. Yes I like this answer.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, that is the passage that definitely convinced me that agape and phileo are distinct and agape is Christ love or God's perfect unconditional love and phileo is more human love or brotherly affection. So I agree with that passage. It just surprised me though that in other parts of the gospels, especially in John, he uses phileo as if it should have been agape.

Which passages do you have in mind?

Did John make a mistake in using phileo instead of agape?

I doubt it.

Why would God only phileo Jesus and not agape him? Strange that phileo is used quite a lot in places one would think should be agape, and agape was replaced with phileo in a lot of places one would think should be agape.

Maybe John did it to make a point?
It's hard to say - I don't know which passages you are referring to.

 

[seeker2122]

Which passages do you have in mind?

I doubt it.


Maybe John did it to make a point?
It's hard to say - I don't know which passages you are referring to.

one example of articles that talk about this where passages are mentioned:

Agape and Phileo | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org

Can we get a better understanding of John 21 by knowing the Greek words agape and phileo? Don't we miss out on a great nugget by having the English word "love" instead of the original Greek words?

www.learnthebible.org

There are too many list.

 

[Strong in Him]

one example of articles that talk about this where passages are mentioned:

?? That article talks about John 21, when Jesus asked Peter, 3 times, do you love me?
The first two times Jesus said "do you Agape me?" - the highest form of love. Peter could only reply that he had Phileo love for Jesus - love of a brother. The final time, Jesus used the word for love that Peter used; Phileo. Like he was saying, "If you can't agape me - love me with divine love -, Peter, are you at least fond of me?"

This doesn't mean that agape is lesser than Phileo, or that the two are interchangeable. Jesus met Peter where he was - only able to offer Phileo love.

There are too many list.

Just a few will do, so that I can understand what you are referring to.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Some examples like: John 5:20 (The Father phileos the Son). John 11:13 and 11:36 (Jesus phileo Lazarus)...one would think he would agape him.
John 16:27 - God the Father phileos the disciples because the disciples phileo Jesus.

There are a lot of websites that pointed stuff like this out about who phileo and agape are synonyms and used interchangeably even though
most of us thought agape was some higher form of love (which I still hold to that belief just because I want to lol).

I won't post the links to the articles cuz there are a lot but if you just do a google search of "agape and phileo love" you'll come across a bunch that says things like, "let's stop analyzing agape and phileo" or "agape and phileo the truth about the words" etc.

Thanks for the references.

The way I take it is, agape is the love that gives, and gives.

Phileo, is the love that is based on intellectual agreement.

Since Jesus teaches to give and expect nothing in return, agape is the superior love in terms of what Jesus taught.

my take.

 

[WordAloud]

I'd say look at the Greek at the end of John's Gospel. Simon, do you love me...? Simon, do you love me...? Simon, do you like me?

Jesus brings himself down to the level of the human in order to make it possible.

xOliver

 

[seeker2122]

I'd say look at the Greek at the end of John's Gospel. Simon, do you love me...? Simon, do you love me...? Simon, do you like me?

Jesus brings himself down to the level of the human in order to make it possible.

xOliver

That's what I tend to believe. But what is confusing is how did the Pharisee's agape? In that case, I believe agape only means "committed" whether it is for good or for bad.....so it seems that agape from God/Christ is the highest love (I agree) but agape is also used to mean simply committed love (doing whatever it takes for that thing or person).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends, but while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

 

[Michael Snow]

Growing up I've always learned or been taught that agape love is the highest form of love because
it is divine and unconditional love.

Phileo love is more like the maximum capacity humans are able to love which is like brotherly love.
(Eros is romantic and Storge is familial).

But recent research I've come across says that agape and phileo love are actually the same and interchanged all
the time in the NT. I was stunned to see that in the greek, it was true! Phileo is used in the place of agape and
agape used in the place of phileo interchangeably!

Any thoughts? Agreements or disagreements? I still want to believe agape is the highest form of love and phileo is right under it.
That is why when the scriptures says they know me by your love for one another means when you agape one another, the world
will know you are my followers because humans can't agape one another unless they have Christ' love in them which is agape love.
That's how you'd know for sure they aren't just showing conditional love but unconditional/divine love which can only come from
the source of Christ' love.

Yes they are used as synonyms In NT.

But that does not exclude agape also being used as an expression for the highest form of love--The key point is that agape is not used EXCLUSIVELY for that. Be clear about that distinction.
Here is an excellent article on Phileo and Agape by a pastor friend.
The “Agapao” and “Phileo” Kinds of Love in the New Testament, by Romeo Fulga

 

[dpinpin]

Growing up I've always learned or been taught that agape love is the highest form of love because
it is divine and unconditional love.

Phileo love is more like the maximum capacity humans are able to love which is like brotherly love.
(Eros is romantic and Storge is familial).

But recent research I've come across says that agape and phileo love are actually the same and interchanged all
the time in the NT. I was stunned to see that in the greek, it was true! Phileo is used in the place of agape and
agape used in the place of phileo interchangeably!

Any thoughts? Agreements or disagreements? I still want to believe agape is the highest form of love and phileo is right under it.
That is why when the scriptures says they know me by your love for one another means when you agape one another, the world
will know you are my followers because humans can't agape one another unless they have Christ' love in them which is agape love.
That's how you'd know for sure they aren't just showing conditional love but unconditional/divine love which can only come from
the source of Christ' love.

 

[dpinpin]

I echo your frustration. While it has been argued and evidenced that there are instances of interchangeability, there has to be some metric whereby the two words are made distinct. The conclusion that the two are (wholly?) interchangeable does nothing to explain why there are two words (four if we use C.S.Lewis taxonomy) to begin with. Hmm.