Should crucifixes/crosses be used in Halloween decorations?

[LBrize]

Here's one that I would like to get the board's opinion on.

Halloween has become a holiday that is basically a fun evening for kids to dress up and get candy. People decorate their lawns and homes, and generally there is no deep spirituality involved in the practice for the general public. One thing that concerns me a bit, though, is the use of crosses in lawn decorations, graveyard scenes, etc. Why does this bother me?
I am one who is okay with watching scary movies, giving out candy, and I think it's fun to carve a pumpkin and all that light-hearted stuff that comes with Halloween. The thing about using crosses, though, is that the cross has become a Christian symbol, signifying God's sacrifice for us. Because we see them all the time, we may see a cross and just recognize as a cross, but the meaning behind the crucifix is of the highest of importance. Jesus was brutally killed on one of those. He was nailed with spikes through his flesh on one of those. I just think it is strange to have crosses as Halloween decorations, right beside the jack-o-lanterns, the black cats, bats, and smiley ghost faces. Doesn't that demean the meaning of the cross?
One thing I have noticed in popular culture is the gradual push toward first getting people to disbelieve Satan exists, and then to push people to disbelieve that God exists, and that Jesus was just a man. It started a long time ago, but made it's way into movies, where characters would say "whoever is up there looking down," or "somebody must be looking out for me," instead of referencing God directly. Later, movies began dismissing God altogether, such as in the Final Destination movie that begins with an interview where an expert on unexplained events states something to the effect of "well, you know what I think about that whole religion thing."

For those of you who have not gone to college or have been out for a while, I have made a "career" out of going to college, and have noticed the change there as well. Now, in 2009, many, many professors at major universities are claiming that Christianity is a myth. I quote one professor as saying the "mythical garden of Eden," and "mythical beings such as angels." Someone please tell me how this type of "teaching" is respectful of all cultures and religions? They don't dare say those things about Islam or the Koran, they don't dare say that Muhammed maybe didn't even exist, or that Islam is a myth. This type of liberal disrespect and hypocracy literally makes me sick when I think about it, but I digress.

The point is that when we mix real religious symbols with deep significance with childish, fun time decorations, are we not sending a message that the cross also does not have real meaning? Isn't it like saying the cross is just a toy, to be used as decoration?

An alternative point of view might be that by placing crosses in, say, a cemetery scene, that we are reminded that although Halloween is just a fun little "scary" holiday, that there is good, and there is God, and that we should embrace the using of crosses in such lawn decor, as it exposes those Trick-or-Treaters or passersby to the crucifix, which they may not see or think about at other times.

I know this seems strange, and is the reason I've made this post, but why would I, as a Christian, want crosses to NOT be used in Halloween decorations. Does anyone else understand this? The cross to me is just too sacred to set up alongside Casper, for the entertainment of kids wanting candy. I would like to read some good discussion about this, as I do see the validity in both arguments.

Any thougts? -LBrize

 

[Beanieboy]

The tradition comes from those who believed that the veil between living and the dead was lifted, since it is the Eve before All Hallows Day, so it is based on Christian fear. The people carved turnips, and later, pumpkins, to scare away the evil spirits.

To this day, if you look on older buildings, you will see gargoyles, grotesque monsters created by man to scare away evil spirits.

You would dress in costumes so that the evil spirit couldn't find you.

However, the use of Crucifixes I have never seen. You may see a cross, but it is usually as part of a gravestone, and yeah, they are kind of creepy, as most graveyards are creepy.

I can't imagine why you would put a crucifix up, though. It doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with facing our "boogey men" of vampires, or other monsters that don't
exist, nor anything that would make us afraid.

As far as classroom discussion, when teaching religion objectively, one has to call the story of Eden "a myth," not in the sense that it never happened, but rather, we can't verify that it really did happen.

People at one time believed that a maiden was turned into an Echo. Should a university teacher tell you that that is how the first echo started, rather than tell you the myth behind the story?

Joseph Campbell, when doing comparative religious studies, found the Eden story to be in some form in a number of religions.

The "mythical creature of angels", again, is something that no one can prove, so for now, they can only be called myth, just as a unicorn, really, despite how often they appeared in literature.

Even if I told you, "I've seen an angel," most lay Christians would say, "Yeah, right." I wonder how many of them even believe that they have or ever will encounter one.

Halloween for kids is just about candy. For some reason, adults grew up, and decided to rob other children of the one night when you can binge on all the candy you want. It was the best day ever. Adults celebrate it to either challenge their fears by walking through a Haunted House sponsered by the Jaycees, or dress up and be a kid for a day, just because you can. In Toronto, it's a fun celebration of just being a kid all over again.

I think that if crosses are used (if they are not tombstones), then you have every right to ask that they be taken down why the other be allowed to stay (a fair compromise), and I would explain that it is similar to having a jack-o-latern with a yamika. It just seems out of place, and kind of offensive. Halloween is about the things that scare us, and not fearing them. The cross shouldn't be anything that people fear.

Except Dracula.

 

[Blackmarch]

Here's one that I would like to get the board's opinion on.

Halloween has become a holiday that is basically a fun evening for kids to dress up and get candy. People decorate their lawns and homes, and generally there is no deep spirituality involved in the practice for the general public. One thing that concerns me a bit, though, is the use of crosses in lawn decorations, graveyard scenes, etc. Why does this bother me?
I am one who is okay with watching scary movies, giving out candy, and I think it's fun to carve a pumpkin and all that light-hearted stuff that comes with Halloween. The thing about using crosses, though, is that the cross has become a Christian symbol, signifying God's sacrifice for us. Because we see them all the time, we may see a cross and just recognize as a cross, but the meaning behind the crucifix is of the highest of importance. Jesus was brutally killed on one of those. He was nailed with spikes through his flesh on one of those. I just think it is strange to have crosses as Halloween decorations, right beside the jack-o-lanterns, the black cats, bats, and smiley ghost faces. Doesn't that demean the meaning of the cross?
One thing I have noticed in popular culture is the gradual push toward first getting people to disbelieve Satan exists, and then to push people to disbelieve that God exists, and that Jesus was just a man. It started a long time ago, but made it's way into movies, where characters would say "whoever is up there looking down," or "somebody must be looking out for me," instead of referencing God directly. Later, movies began dismissing God altogether, such as in the Final Destination movie that begins with an interview where an expert on unexplained events states something to the effect of "well, you know what I think about that whole religion thing."

For those of you who have not gone to college or have been out for a while, I have made a "career" out of going to college, and have noticed the change there as well. Now, in 2009, many, many professors at major universities are claiming that Christianity is a myth. I quote one professor as saying the "mythical garden of Eden," and "mythical beings such as angels." Someone please tell me how this type of "teaching" is respectful of all cultures and religions? They don't dare say those things about Islam or the Koran, they don't dare say that Muhammed maybe didn't even exist, or that Islam is a myth. This type of liberal disrespect and hypocracy literally makes me sick when I think about it, but I digress.

The point is that when we mix real religious symbols with deep significance with childish, fun time decorations, are we not sending a message that the cross also does not have real meaning? Isn't it like saying the cross is just a toy, to be used as decoration?

An alternative point of view might be that by placing crosses in, say, a cemetery scene, that we are reminded that although Halloween is just a fun little "scary" holiday, that there is good, and there is God, and that we should embrace the using of crosses in such lawn decor, as it exposes those Trick-or-Treaters or passersby to the crucifix, which they may not see or think about at other times.

I know this seems strange, and is the reason I've made this post, but why would I, as a Christian, want crosses to NOT be used in Halloween decorations. Does anyone else understand this? The cross to me is just too sacred to set up alongside Casper, for the entertainment of kids wanting candy. I would like to read some good discussion about this, as I do see the validity in both arguments.

Any thougts? -LBrize

Like most holidays that have had some signifcance to other cultures Halloween has been candified. At one point Halloween or the period around halloween was used to celebrate and/or reverance those who have passed on, and along the way it has picked up various traditions/beliefs, and lost others...
How you use it is up to you, it's no different than christmas.

I would caution about using symbols that have deep meaning to you (and others) - is to use them in a respectful manner.
For me, I would not have a statue of jesus in the middle of a bunch of goblins and witches, but i'd have it in a different location that was obviously seperate from the fun halloween decorations.

 

[jayem]

The Christian holiday of All Soul's Day has been transformed in Hispanic cultures into El Dia de los Muertos, The Day of The Dead. If you've ever been in a Mexican church in early November, you'll see numerous shrines, where crucifixes, and pictures of the Virgin Mary are displayed alongside skulls and skeletal catrina dolls. And also flowers and bottles of tequila.

I'm not a believer, but I don't see that blending Christian and pagan religious symbolism detracts from the message. It's gone on for as long as Christianity has existed.

 

[seashale76]

In the Western Catholic tradition, November 1st is All Saints Day and November 2nd is All Souls' Day. Even the traditional colors for Halloween are taken from this liturgical event; black vestments and the orange glow of the beeswax candles. It is absolutely no surprise that the cross became associated with Halloween in light of this. What to us is an event for candy and dress up for the kids was once a time when people went to pray for their dead and take care of their graves.

In the Orthodox Church we celebrate quite a few Saturday of Souls throughout the liturgical year, where a panikhida 'memorial' is served to honor the departed and pray for them. We celebrate All Saints Day on the first Sunday after Pentecost.

During a memorial service (pankhida) we'll have icons, crosses, incense and candles, of course. At times, a panikhida for an individual person is performed at their grave. A sweet boiled wheat dish called koliva is also usually served in honor of the departed after the service.

When someone dies there is an extended panikhida on the day of their death and then there is the funeral, and panikhidas are then usually done for the departed on the third day, ninth day, fortieth day, the first year anniversary, and then yearly.

Regarding the cross and Halloween: Just because people have made Halloween into what we have now, it is still going to be associated, rightly, wrongly, and even in bizarre ways, with Catholicism because they're not going to change their liturgical calendar. However, it is my personal opinion that for a believer, the cross and the sign of the cross is always appropriate.

 

[MoonLancer]

Halloween has become a holiday that is basically a fun evening for kids to dress up and get candy. People decorate their lawns and homes, and generally there is no deep spirituality involved in the practice for the general public. One thing that concerns me a bit, though, is the use of crosses in lawn decorations, graveyard scenes, etc. Why does this bother me?

So you trivialize an important holiday and except people to respect your own religion in turn? the very same religion that tried to wipe Samhain from the face of the earth by trying to replace it with all saints day? The name stuck. All Hallows Eve, Halloween. Its rituals and meaning however could not be smothered by Christianity.

Your just going to have to get over it that some people don't care about Christianity. That the cross represents something Gothic and dark at the time of Samhain and its a small karmic price to pay.

 

[seashale76]

So you trivialize an important holiday and except people to respect your own religion in turn? the very same religion that tried to wipe Samhain from the face of the earth by trying to replace it with all saints day? The name stuck. All Hallows Eve, Halloween. Its rituals and meaning however could not be smothered by Christianity.

Your just going to have to get over it that some people don't care about Christianity. That the cross represents something Gothic and dark at the time of Samhain and its a small karmic price to pay.

You know as well as I do that Halloween in the west today is a very secular holiday for most people. Samhain as practiced by neopagans and reconstructionists isn't what she's trivializing (and they can't be sure they have reconstructed the practices completely and shouldn't be confused with the original pagans who celebrated Samhain anyway). And, as far as I've ever seen, heard, or read, the conversion of the Celts was far from violent. Monastic missions? Not violent.

Also, just so you know where Christians past and present tend to stand on pagan customs among those who used to practice them before they were Christian: Only those that were completely counter to Christianity were done away with (by the very people who used to practice and believe them- so we're clear). Christianity has never had any problem incorporating pagan practices under the reasoning that any good practices are evidence that parts of the truth can be found anywhere among any peoples. St. Justin Martyr is definitely one I'll point you in the direction of if you'd like to read all about it.

ETA: Look past Samhain- Halloween as practiced in Catholicism is bigger than one geographical region and the pagan practices its people followed before they converted to Christianity.

 

[MoonLancer]

Also, just so you know where Christians past and present tend to stand on pagan customs among those who used to practice them before they were Christian: Only those that were completely counter to Christianity were done away with (by the very people who used to practice and believe them- so we're clear). Christianity has never had any problem incorporating pagan practices under the reasoning that any good practices are evidence that parts of the truth can be found anywhere among any peoples. St. Justin Martyr is definitely one I'll point you in the direction of if you'd like to read all about it.

this is very revisionist. Christianity at the this time was brought to people with the point of the sword. The very reason Christianity incorporated other practices was to undermine, assimilate and convert. Another method was simply make up religious holiday on the day of other religious celebration to stamp it out. This is exactly what happened to Samhain only it didn't work. It blew up in their face. Instead they spread it under another name. Thanks! Halloween is a pagan holiday which i think anyone who knows a bit of history recognizes it as such.

I would say Christians had more success with Christmas but in the end everyone decorates a pagan tree anyway, so i would say Christmas is also very much a pagan holiday.

ETA: Look past Samhain- Halloween as practiced in Catholicism is bigger than one geographical region and the pagan practices its people followed before they converted to Christianity.

isn't this a fallacy?

 

[seashale76]

this is very revisionist. Christianity at the this time was brought to people with the point of the sword. The very reason Christianity incorporated other practices was to undermine assimilate and convert. Another method was simply make up religious holiday on the day of other religuse celebrations to stamp it out. This is exactly what happened to Samhain only it didn't work. It blew up in their face. Instead they spread it under another name. Thanks!

I would say Christians had more success with Christmas but in the end the tree won.
isn't this a fallacy?

If you really believe that, then you are the one who has bought into the revisionism. Again, read what the Early Church Fathers such as St. Justin Martyr (who lived in the first century and is hardly revisionist) had to say about it. Also, please read historical texts with valid sources. Books like, The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future don't qualify (except I should say that the sources in this book are fine it's just that they support absolutely none of the claims in the book- I suppose charlatans like to think nobody's going to bother to check), and Hislop's The Two Babylons (sources not valid neither are the claims- and someone's checked). If you would like to look at the writings of a well-respected historian in this field (even among non-Christians), might I recommend Jaroslav Pelikan?

Regarding the fallacy thing: How so? The Holy Day on Nov. 1 and what people do the night before don't necessarily have anything to do with Samhain in the rest of the western world historically- and certainly not in the East as we don't celebrate on the same day anyway.

Also regarding your apparent offense at the very existence of Christianity when it comes to these ancient pagans (which in the specific case we've been talking about in this thread willingly gave up their anti-Christian practices), it is important to note (once again) that these reconstructionist religions can claim whatever they like, but it does not diminish the fact that neopagans in general (and Wiccans in particular) are very often guilty of historical revisionism to suit their purposes. It is essentially nauseating to continually encounter the unfounded claims of the perfect pre-Christian peaceful pagan utopia mythos that permeates all of these neopagan groups.

I personally believe these people should be allowed to worship how they choose, they just need to buy their own property, build their own temples to do it in (in the case of those who want the ancient temples in places like Greece), and admit that their religion isn't the same as people who lived in an earlier time and is only based and constructed off of the beliefs of earlier peoples (so far as they know what those beliefs are). If their religion is truly fluid and ever-changing (which I don't think they would contest), then they should want to do a new thing with their worship sites and not try to remake history into their own modern image. Otherwise, all they really turn out being is a bunch of rabble rousers and Christ haters who don't care so much for their own faith as having a bone to pick with the Christians.

 

[Skaloop]

I personally believe these people should be allowed to worship how they choose, they just need to buy their own property, build their own temples to do it in (in the case of those who want the ancient temples in places like Greece), and admit that their religion isn't the same as people who lived in an earlier time and is only based and constructed off of the beliefs of earlier peoples (so far as they know what those beliefs are). If their religion is truly fluid and ever-changing (which I don't think they would contest), then they should want to do a new thing with their worship sites and not try to remake history into their own modern image. Otherwise, all they really turn out being is a bunch of rabble rousers and Christ haters who don't care so much for their own faith as having a bone to pick with the Christians.

Why would Christians become rabble-rousers who hate Christ and other Christians?

You were talking about Christians in the first part of the paragraph, right? No? Coulda fooled me.

And that first part, about you letting them worship as they choose, is contradicted by the list of conditions you would place on their choices of how they worship.

The church doesn't admit to those things in order to worship; why should anyone else have to?

 

[MoonLancer]

If you really believe that, then you are the one who has bought into the revisionism. Again, read what the Early Church Fathers such as St. Justin Martyr (who lived in the first century and is hardly revisionist) had to say about it.

pointing me to a specific source would be more helpful.

If you would like to look at the writings of a well-respected historian in this field (even among non-Christians), might I recommend Jaroslav Pelikan?

I like how you had to add the part in parenthesis. So far i cannot find any Jaroslav Pelikan books that talk about Samhain or Halloween.

Regarding the fallacy thing: How so? The Holy Day on Nov. 1 and what people do the night before don't necessarily have anything to do with Samhain in the rest of the western world historically- and certainly not in the East as we don't celebrate on the same day anyway.

really. Its full of crosses and skulls and is looked at as a in between time as life transitions to death. This is almost exactly what samhain is. by fallacy i was referring to the fallacy in which a one view is invalid do to its popularity or lack of.

Also regarding your apparent offense at the very existence of Christianity when it comes to these ancient pagans (which in the specific case we've been talking about in this thread willingly gave up their anti-Christian practices),

Which specific case are we talking about? Please be specific. So far you have not provided any sources to demonstrate this.

it is important to note (once again) that these reconstructionist religions can claim whatever they like, but it does not diminish the fact that neopagans in general (and Wiccans in particular) are very often guilty of historical revisionism to suit their purposes. It is essentially nauseating to continually encounter the unfounded claims of the perfect pre-Christian peaceful pagan utopia mythos that permeates all of these neopagan groups.

who ever said anything about perfect pre christian peaceful pagan utopia mythos? we are talking about Christians and Halloween. We are also takings about the death of other cultures at the hands of Christians. btw rather then address the claims that Christianity converted many with the point of a sword like Charlemagne, you try to deflect it.

I personally believe these people should be allowed to worship how they choose, they just need to buy their own property,

then i guess the christian churches wouldn't mind giving back the land they stole. this was another tactic of Christians in early history. They would build churches over the holy sites of other religions so people would worship in the new church. in order to visit their holy site they would need to do so in a christian church.

build their own temples to do it in (in the case of those who want the ancient temples in places like Greece), and admit that their religion isn't the same as people who lived in an earlier time and is only based and constructed off of the beliefs of earlier peoples (so far as they know what those beliefs are).

I'm sure it would be the same religion if Christians didn't try and smother and destroy it long ago. People want their culture and heritage back.

If their religion is truly fluid and ever-changing (which I don't think they would contest), then they should want to do a new thing with their worship sites and not try to remake history into their own modern image.

they wouldn't have to if their religion was left alone in the first place.

Otherwise, all they really turn out being is a bunch of rabble rousers and Christ haters who don't care so much for their own faith as having a bone to pick with the Christians.

lol Christ haters = people who point out the cultural atrocity's of Christianity that just want their culture and religion back. LOL.

 

[seashale76]

Why would Christians become rabble-rousers who hate Christ and other Christians?

You were talking about Christians in the first part of the paragraph, right? No? Coulda fooled me.

And that first part, about you letting them worship as they choose, is contradicted by the list of conditions you would place on their choices of how they worship.

The church doesn't admit to those things in order to worship; why should anyone else have to?

Switch paragraphs, switch topics- but it is all related. However, perhaps I wasn't clear. When someone else is speaking of people still believing in Samhain- the only people who could possibly be doing that are people who are attempting to reconstruct the old religion. The people who once actually followed that religion are long gone, and at one point they willingly converted to Christianity.

When you're talking about reconstructionists (who often are far removed from time, place, and aren't usually related to the earlier pagans whose religions they claim to be reconstructing and believing) vs. the descendants of the people who were the actual pagans that turned Christian- it is a distinction that means everything sometimes. The first group doesn't have a right to the ancient sites- it is debatable that they even follow the ancient religion they've attempted to reconstruct. Those who actually do have a claim to the sites are those who can claim it as a cultural legacy, which they usually do, and the overwhelming majority of those folks aren't reconstructionists.

It would be like me deciding tomorrow that I was a neopagan following the religion of the ancient Mayans and demanding that the Mexican government let me use their historical sites and give them to my Mayan reconstructionist group- and then going back and rewriting Mayan history to reflect my modern world-view. Modern descendants of the Mayans would have every right to be offended with me- especially if I added in jibes about their Catholicism.

 

[seashale76]

Re: Charlemagne

We Orthodox believe the Schism really began here. The Church in no way condones his actions.

Re: ancient people who converted and what they did with their own former pagan places of worship

If they wanted to turn their temples of Apollo and whatnot into churches once they converted, then good on them.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Halloween isn't just a "childish" holiday for kids to get free candy and dress up. Halloween is a real religious holiday and sacred to many people. You don't really think Halloween is just a product of the candy factories do you? Ever considered its origins?

As for crucifixes for decoration? Who cares? To each their own, I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[LBrize]

Why must those who do not believe in Christianity attack it so much? Your very efforts are evidence of Jesus knowing what he was talking about.
How many Christians, good and true Christians, go to Wiccan sites and tell them they are stupid for believing the way they do, and that their beliefs are based on a bunch of myths?
Why do those who do not believe insist on getting on Christian boards just to give people a hard time? Don't you have anything better to do?
I was taught to be respectful of others; that the U.S. is a "melting pot" (popular phrase in the '70s and '80s), and as such we should respect other cultures and the beliefs of others. Basically, not to be trouble makers.
Why can I not believe in God without you taking offense to it? Why must Christians endure ridicule and insults, while at the same time respecting those who have other views?
If a Christian in the world today would do what others do against them, the media would say "those crazy Christians," or there they go "clinging to their guns and religion."
I just don't understand. Why not be nice? Why not respect that Christians believe in God, and Jesus, and angels, and the Bible? Why must there be insults? It is not just Christianity, but humanity itself demands that we respect each other if people are to coexist.

It's not that difficult, no matter what your theology may be, to simply be nice. Wow. No reference to historical texts, no mention of who said what first or what other people practiced in ancient times, it's just as simple as being respectful that someone else may believe differently than you do, and being courteous to that person. Wow...what a difficult concept.

I guess if I were a "good" Christian, I would go to some Muslim boards and tell them how dumb it is to point themselves toward Mecca. I should probably tell them how Muhammed decided to put the second half of the Koran after he became a political leader, so he could control the society. I should probably bash the Wiccans for worshipping dirt and sticks, and tell the Jewish people that it's stupid to only eat certain foods. I should probably tell them all that everything they believe came from people who just wanted to control them, and that all that stuff they base their faiths on is just a bunch of made up myths. No? I shouldn't? Why not? Would that be "mean?" Would I be a "crazy Christian" just causing trouble? Wow. To me, I might be really a really stupid, crazy Christian, but isn't that what you are doing? If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in God. That's your business.
Hey aetheists, why don't we go over around the community, and tell everyone how stupid that guy was for buying a new car? I mean, we don't agree with his choice of car, so he must be stupid, right? Shouldn't we attack him because of his choices? Shouldn't we try to block him from driving on our roads, because we don't need to see that "Crazy new car driver"?
I was being taught to respect others and turn the other cheek, while others were being taught disrespect, and beligerence, and to be combative. God said it would happen, doesn't that make you think? Why would your goal to be to disprove Christians? Again, if you truly don't believe, do you not have something else to do? Do you get on other religious boards and trash talk them? No? Don't you see something wrong with that?

Do you really think Christianity is about politics? Do you really think that Christianity is about government control??? Have you read anything? Don't you know that governments have used people's religious beliefs to guide and control them for centuries, and don't you realize that the governments doing these things are not really speaking on the behalf of God, but of men??? God doesn't care about the cotton trade in Egypt, or who controls the canal, people do, and what better way to control the weak minded than to convince their subjects that God told them to do something! People who really know God, people who really know what Jesus is about, know that it's not government control at all. Did Jesus establish a state? Did he try to control a state?
Non-believers really should try to understand the difference between the teachings of Jesus Christ and what man has done falsely in his name. There is a big difference.
How can you be at peace with yourself if you carry such hatred toward others?

 

[Skaloop]

Why must those who do not believe in Christianity attack it so much? Your very efforts are evidence of Jesus knowing what he was talking about.
How many Christians, good and true Christians, go to Wiccan sites and tell them they are stupid for believing the way they do, and that their beliefs are based on a bunch of myths?
Why do those who do not believe insist on getting on Christian boards just to give people a hard time? Don't you have anything better to do?
I was taught to be respectful of others; that the U.S. is a "melting pot" (popular phrase in the '70s and '80s), and as such we should respect other cultures and the beliefs of others. Basically, not to be trouble makers.
Why can I not believe in God without you taking offense to it? Why must Christians endure ridicule and insults, while at the same time respecting those who have other views?
If a Christian in the world today would do what others do against them, the media would say "those crazy Christians," or there they go "clinging to their guns and religion."
I just don't understand. Why not be nice? Why not respect that Christians believe in God, and Jesus, and angels, and the Bible? Why must there be insults? It is not just Christianity, but humanity itself demands that we respect each other if people are to coexist.

It's not that difficult, no matter what your theology may be, to simply be nice. Wow. No reference to historical texts, no mention of who said what first or what other people practiced in ancient times, it's just as simple as being respectful that someone else may believe differently than you do, and being courteous to that person. Wow...what a difficult concept.

I guess if I were a "good" Christian, I would go to some Muslim boards and tell them how dumb it is to point themselves toward Mecca. I should probably tell them how Muhammed decided to put the second half of the Koran after he became a political leader, so he could control the society. I should probably bash the Wiccans for worshipping dirt and sticks, and tell the Jewish people that it's stupid to only eat certain foods. I should probably tell them all that everything they believe came from people who just wanted to control them, and that all that stuff they base their faiths on is just a bunch of made up myths. No? I shouldn't? Why not? Would that be "mean?" Would I be a "crazy Christian" just causing trouble? Wow. To me, I might be really a really stupid, crazy Christian, but isn't that what you are doing? If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in God. That's your business.
Hey aetheists, why don't we go over around the community, and tell everyone how stupid that guy was for buying a new car? I mean, we don't agree with his choice of car, so he must be stupid, right? Shouldn't we attack him because of his choices? Shouldn't we try to block him from driving on our roads, because we don't need to see that "Crazy new car driver"?
I was being taught to respect others and turn the other cheek, while others were being taught disrespect, and beligerence, and to be combative. God said it would happen, doesn't that make you think? Why would your goal to be to disprove Christians? Again, if you truly don't believe, do you not have something else to do? Do you get on other religious boards and trash talk them? No? Don't you see something wrong with that?

Do you really think Christianity is about politics? Do you really think that Christianity is about government control??? Have you read anything? Don't you know that governments have used people's religious beliefs to guide and control them for centuries, and don't you realize that the governments doing these things are not really speaking on the behalf of God, but of men??? God doesn't care about the cotton trade in Egypt, or who controls the canal, people do, and what better way to control the weak minded than to convince their subjects that God told them to do something! People who really know God, people who really know what Jesus is about, know that it's not government control at all. Did Jesus establish a state? Did he try to control a state?
Non-believers really should try to understand the difference between the teachings of Jesus Christ and what man has done falsely in his name. There is a big difference.
How can you be at peace with yourself if you carry such hatred toward others?

If you only wanted responses that backed up everything you already thought, you probably should have posted this in one of the Christian-only sections of the forums.

Also, don't mistake disagreement for hatred. Don't mistake debate for hatred. Don't mistake the pointing out of factual errors as hatred.

As for why I am here, I enjoy having discussions with people with opposing viewpoints. The reason I am at a Christian site for this (as opposed to Muslim or anything else) is because, due to it's ubiquity here in North America, it is what I am most exposed to.

Christians "attack" atheists all the time. The ones you don't consider to be "true" Christians do it on the atheist sites, up to the point of threatening lives. Those who are "true" Christians do it while hiding out amongst the like-minded talking about how much hatred those atheists have, and how mean they are, patting themselves on the back for not doing it to their faces. Then they get offended when someone calls them on it.

I welcome civil discourse with anyone (and occasionally, not so civil discourse) and would welcome Christians to engage me with their opposing views. I will not hide out in an atheist forum because I want my ideas challenged. I can defend them. It is those who cannot who see hatred in opposition; hatred based on fear over the weakness of their own stance.

 

[MoonLancer]

Let me just start by saying I love your post. Your classic.

Why must those who do not believe in Christianity attack it so much? Your very efforts are evidence of Jesus knowing what he was talking about.

Is pointing out the bad things Christians have done throughout history bad? should we ignore it? Why are you getting defensive about it? Specifically what line am I evidence of Jesus knowing what he is talking about?

How many Christians, good and true Christians, go to Wiccan sites and tell them they are stupid for believing the way they do, and that their beliefs are based on a bunch of myths?

do you really want an answer to that? well i would have to say a TON. but they don't stick around for augment like i do. They just do hit and runs.

Why do those who do not believe insist on getting on Christian boards just to give people a hard time? Don't you have anything better to do?

sounds like you have a persecution complex. I know that Christians mentally get off on that kind of thing. You act like I am tossing people to lions.

I was taught to be respectful of others; that the U.S. is a "melting pot" (popular phrase in the '70s and '80s), and as such we should respect other cultures and the beliefs of others. Basically, not to be trouble makers.

I can be respectful (which i have been doing thus far in this thread) while at the same time not tolerate past actions of Christianity. again with the persecution complex.

Why can I not believe in God without you taking offense to it? Why must Christians endure ridicule and insults, while at the same time respecting those who have other views?

its kind of hard to take this seriously when your religion and churches are build on the mortar of the blood and bones of civilizations.

If a Christian in the world today would do what others do against them, the media would say "those crazy Christians," or there they go "clinging to their guns and religion."

i think they already say that in the media

I just don't understand. Why not be nice? Why not respect that Christians believe in God, and Jesus, and angels, and the Bible? Why must there be insults? It is not just Christianity, but humanity itself demands that we respect each other if people are to coexist.

If we condensed Christianity actions as a whole into a single encounter it would be like someone pulling a gun on someone you love, killing them and then the gunmen suddenly saying, hey cant we all just get along? Its just rather funny.

It's not that difficult, no matter what your theology may be, to simply be nice. Wow. No reference to historical texts, no mention of who said what first or what other people practiced in ancient times, it's just as simple as being respectful that someone else may believe differently than you do, and being courteous to that person. Wow...what a difficult concept.

so your solution is to forget Christianities history? You can give me back the city of Alexandra. I might just forget about all the other things Christians did. I agree its important to be respectful of others, but you clearly have not had your view challenged enough.

I guess if I were a "good" Christian, I would go to some Muslim boards and tell them how dumb it is to point themselves toward Mecca. I should probably tell them how Muhammed decided to put the second half of the Koran after he became a political leader, so he could control the society. I should probably bash the Wiccans for worshipping dirt and sticks, and tell the Jewish people that it's stupid to only eat certain foods.

try joining a comedy club.

I should probably tell them all that everything they believe came from people who just wanted to control them, and that all that stuff they base their faiths on is just a bunch of made up myths.

sure, if its the truth, why not?

No? I shouldn't? Why not? Would that be "mean?" Would I be a "crazy Christian" just causing trouble? Wow. To me, I might be really a really stupid, crazy Christian, but isn't that what you are doing? If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in God. That's your business.

tell that to Christians to try to legislate morality. They have a hard time agreeing with you that whats my business is my business. Thier actions throu out American history have brought me here.

Hey aetheists, why don't we go over around the community, and tell everyone how stupid that guy was for buying a new car? I mean, we don't agree with his choice of car, so he must be stupid, right? Shouldn't we attack him because of his choices? Shouldn't we try to block him from driving on our roads, because we don't need to see that "Crazy new car driver"?

how much mileage does the car get?

I was being taught to respect others and turn the other cheek, while others were being taught disrespect, and beligerence, and to be combative. God said it would happen, doesn't that make you think? Why would your goal to be to disprove Christians? Again, if you truly don't believe, do you not have something else to do? Do you get on other religious boards and trash talk them? No? Don't you see something wrong with that?

not really. You guys knock on my door and tell me I am going to hell. that doesn't sound very respectful. Also other religions do not try to legislate morality in America as much as Christians do.

Do you really think Christianity is about politics? Do you really think that Christianity is about government control??? Have you read anything? Don't you know that governments have used people's religious beliefs to guide and control them for centuries, and don't you realize that the governments doing these things are not really speaking on the behalf of God, but of men???

Oh i think the same could be said for the church as well. remember at one time the church had its own army and waged its own wars.

Did Jesus establish a state? Did he try to control a state?
Non-believers really should try to understand the difference between the teachings of Jesus Christ and what man has done falsely in his name. There is a big difference.

i think its funny how quickly Christians abandon other Christians with the no true Scotsmen fallacy. History has shown how Christians act and treat others. There must have been long cencuries where many people ran around calling themselves Christians when none existed.

How can you be at peace with yourself if you carry such hatred toward others?

project much? You hate me because i challenged your views. You cant even quote me to show the things you claim about me. why should i care when you say things like this?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

To add..I know a BUNCH of Christians on the pagan site I frequent who avoid Christian sites for this very reason, they feel more at home with pagans. They are very much Christians but they feel better amongst us, so yes I know many Christians at pagan sites.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

The truly offensive use of a Cross is to wear one made of gold, silver, or any other precious metal or jeweled creation.

 

[LBrize]

Let me just start by saying I love your post. Your classic.

Is pointing out the bad things Christians have done throughout history bad? should we ignore it? Why are you getting defensive about it? Specifically what line am I evidence of Jesus knowing what he is talking about?

do you really want an answer to that? well i would have to say a TON. but they don't stick around for augment like i do. They just do hit and runs.


sounds like you have a persecution complex. I know that Christians mentally get off on that kind of thing. You act like I am tossing people to lions.
I can be respectful (which i have been doing thus far in this thread) while at the same time not tolerate past actions of Christianity. again with the persecution complex.

its kind of hard to take this seriously when your religion and churches are build on the mortar of the blood and bones of civilizations.


i think they already say that in the media


If we condensed Christianity actions as a whole into a single encounter it would be like someone pulling a gun on someone you love, killing them and then the gunmen suddenly saying, hey cant we all just get along? Its just rather funny.
so your solution is to forget Christianities history? You can give me back the city of Alexandra. I might just forget about all the other things Christians did. I agree its important to be respectful of others, but you clearly have not had your view challenged enough.

try joining a comedy club.
sure, if its the truth, why not?
tell that to Christians to try to legislate morality. They have a hard time agreeing with you that whats my business is my business. Thier actions throu out American history have brought me here.

how much mileage does the car get?
not really. You guys knock on my door and tell me I am going to hell. that doesn't sound very respectful. Also other religions do not try to legislate morality in America as much as Christians do.

Oh i think the same could be said for the church as well. remember at one time the church had its own army and waged its own wars.


i think its funny how quickly Christians abandon other Christians with the no true Scotsmen fallacy. History has shown how Christians act and treat others. There must have been long cencuries where many people ran around calling themselves Christians when none existed.

project much? You hate me because i challenged your views. You cant even quote me to show the things you claim about me. why should i care when you say things like this?

You, always confused, are mistaken on every account. The horrible things that you blame on Chrisianity as a whole, should be targeted toward those people, those governments, who acted ungodly. Christ didn't do those things...people did. Again, every government has manipulated its people by using their beliefs to accomplish its political goals. Why don't we talk about the Chinese? What about Hitler? What about the Ottoman Empire? That's just the way people are. People, not God. People, not Jesus. What did Jesus do? Did he do anything violent, to anyone? The only account I can recall, is that he turned over some tables, because (again) people were manipulating others based on their faith to gain monetary wealth.