Security of Salvation Verses

[Egghead]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing what you say is in those Scriptures. You're not making a lot of sense. There's nothing in that passage about teachers. And please don't put words in my mouth, thank you. I think it's you who is reading something into the text that isn't there and making it say something else. I think we'll just have to disagree.

Lets go up a few verses too in 1 Cor chap 3.

I gave you milk to drink, and not solid food;
for you were not yet able to receive it.

Indeed, neither are you now yet able; for you are still carnal.

For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal, and walking according to human principles?




For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord has given to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are coworkers with God; you are God's field, you are God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise architect I have laid the foundation, but another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay, other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(1Co 3)

Now, lets see how Paul uses ''milk'' and "solid food" in other areas for a little more context, shall we?

For indeed, although you ought to be teachers by this time, again you have need for someone to teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

For everyone who partakes only of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

But solid food is for the mature, for those because of their practice have their senses trained for the distinguishing of both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

and Peter....

as newborn babes, desire the genuine milk of the word, that by it you may grow,
(1Pe 2:2)

Id say the context of that 1 Corinthians passage is teachings being tested by fire.

This one pretty much make it absolutely clear.

According to the grace of God which was given to me,
as a wise architect I have laid the foundation,
but another builds on it.
But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay,
other than that which is laid,
which is Jesus Christ.
(1Co 3:10-11)

 

[Egghead]

I don't see how it could be a loaded question. If you answer it the way you believe then how is that only going for the side I want to see? You may ask me as many loaded questions that you want. If the answers to my questions point toward security of salvation then maybe you should look into it more. If not then you will be helping me see your side of the view. So you don't even want to try?

How about this?

Im not going to answer your specific questions, as again, they are loaded to show only one side of the picture.

Hebrews 6 and 10, among quite a few other passages that get ignored/distorted/added to/detracted from present the ''rest of the story''.

We cannot lose our salvation.
We cannot be taken from His hand.
He will not ''lose'' any of His followers.

But we can apostate ourselves of our own free will as the Hebrews were doing.

Now, I assume there will be 100 posts telling me why Hebrews 6 and 10 dont really mean what they say.
Context says that they do.

 

[FaithAlone]

If Hebrews 6 means that you can lose your salvation then it means that once you've lost it you can never get it back. Either you're saying that or it's not saying what you think it is.

"...then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance..."

 

[AshenK]

You've sinned with your body.
You've sinned with your soul.
You've never sinned with your spirit, because it's impossible, and sin in your soul/body doesn't phase your spirit, because it's sealed away by Christs' blood.

Simple concept. You're spirit is saved forever.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless)
(Ephesians 4:13)

 

[FaithAlone]

Hebrews 10 is a very hard chapter to understand. The first part shows that (vs14) "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Then in the later part of the chapter it seems to be speaking of someone losing their salvation. Obviously it can't be both so one side is right and one is wrong. What makes you think this is talking about Christians? It seems to me that it's talking about someone who hears the gospel and knows it in their mind but doesn't take it to heart. I'll look into it deeper. I've read this passage before but I'll take another look at it and really try to understand what it says. I really do wish you would humor me and answer my so called loaded questions.

 

[Egghead]

If Hebrews 6 means that you can lose your salvation then it means that once you've lost it you can never get it back. Either you're saying that or it's not saying what you think it is.

"...then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance..."

Again, you cannot ''lose'' it.

And yes, I do believe if, as the Hebrews did, if one deliberatly rejects Christ after having formerly accepted the free gift, that it indeed impossible to be brought BACK to repentance. Just as those scriptures show.

This isnt a case of say merely stumbling for a time.
It is the willful apostating of oneself.

 

[Egghead]

You've sinned with your body.
You've sinned with your soul.
You've never sinned with your spirit, because it's impossible, and sin in your soul/body doesn't phase your spirit, because it's sealed away by Christs' blood.

Simple concept. You're spirit is saved forever.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless)
(Ephesians 4:13)

Repeating this 1000 times, no matter how poetically eloquent it may sound to some, doesnt make it true or scriptural.

Give me some clear scripture to back it or just admit its nothing more than a nice sounding idea.

 

[AshenK]

Repeating this 1000 times, no matter how poetically eloquent it may sound to some, doesnt make it true or scriptural.

Give me some clear scripture to back it or just admit its nothing more than a nice sounding idea.

You've sinned with your body.
You've sinned with your soul.
You've never sinned with your spirit, because it's impossible, and sin in your soul/body doesn't phase your spirit, because it's sealed away by Christs' blood.

Simple concept. You're spirit is saved forever.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless)
(Ephesians 4:13)

 

[Egghead]

Hebrews 10 is a very hard chapter to understand. The first part shows that (vs14) "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Then in the later part of the chapter it seems to be speaking of someone losing their salvation. Obviously it can't be both so one side is right and one is wrong. What makes you think this is talking about Christians? It seems to me that it's talking about someone who hears the gospel and knows it in their mind but doesn't take it to heart. I'll look into it deeper. I've read this passage before but I'll take another look at it and really try to understand what it says. I really do wish you would humor me and answer my so called loaded questions.

My thoughts are that the writer is trying his best to put into human terms the idea of a predestination of sorts but showing that we still are accountable to the extent that we can apostate ourselves of our own free will.

Honestly, I dont think human words can convey all that Paul was taught on the matter of what we call ''predestination''.

He is talking about born again believers there and that is made clear just in the wording and the way he is speaking to the hearers.

Again, Im not interested in answering those one sided questions.
We both know if I do its going to be ''AH HA!!!...see, it says what *I* said it did''.....even tho its not presenting the whole picture.

Most likely I will answer your questions in such manner that it will prove your point, or seem to.
But as I said, that is only part of the story.

We must take in all the warnings about falling away into account with all the ones that seem to say we are eternally sealed to find the harmony of truth in the scripture.

 

[Egghead]

You've sinned with your body.
You've sinned with your soul.
You've never sinned with your spirit, because it's impossible, and sin in your soul/body doesn't phase your spirit, because it's sealed away by Christs' blood.

Simple concept. You're spirit is saved forever.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless)
(Ephesians 4:13)

Spamming now?

 

[FaithAlone]

I think

(1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless)
(Ephesians 4:13)

is his scripture reference. OK, so don't answer my questions, but would you please at least comment on how you believe the scriptures in the OP don't mean you are saved forever?

To answer the "You can't lose your salvation but you can turn away" comment:

Jesus says nothing can snatch you from His hand. Nothing means ourselves. If He loses nothing doesn't that mean us? If He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified then how can we turn away? Or is it ourselves that does the sanctifying?

 

[AshenK]

I think



is his scripture reference. OK, so don't answer my questions, but would you please at least comment on how you believe the scriptures in the OP don't mean you are saved forever?

When was the last time you sinned with your spirit? Have you ever?

 

[Egghead]

I think



is his scripture reference. OK, so don't answer my questions, but would you please at least comment on how you believe the scriptures in the OP don't mean you are saved forever?

Jesus said ''I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

Is this the whole truth or is there more to be taken into account before deciding what Jesus really meant?

We know Jesus said it, but we know it isnt the whole picture.
Same thing with this.

Youre passages are true as written, just as Jesus words are.
But there is more that we have to take into account before we can see what was meant.

Hebrews 6 and 10 (among others) fill in the rest of the picture.

To answer the "You can't lose your salvation but you can turn away" comment:

Jesus says nothing can snatch you from His hand. Nothing means ourselves. If He loses nothing doesn't that mean us? If He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified then how can we turn away? Or is it ourselves that does the sanctifying?

again, what is shown MUST be taken with the rest of scripture.

We KNOW Jesus didnt just come for Israel as He seems to have been saying.
He came at that point in time to Israel to be rejected by them.
He had sheep not of that fold He had to gather also.

But if I take this point blank...

But He answered her not a word. And His disciples approached and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(Mat 15:23-24)

It only takes reading the NT to see that I cannot take this as it is written simply.

I have to see the rest of scripture to understand it.
I cannot take ONE VERSE and make it the absolute truth.

THAT is what OSAS doctrine does.

It takes only those verses that seem to back it and rejects the rest.

Maybe Ill start my own doctrine in which Jesus ONLY came for Israel.

My foundation of scripture is this...

But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(Mat 15:23-24)

 

[Egghead]

When was the last time you sinned with your spirit? Have you ever?

Does the actions of the body affect the soul/spirit?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell.

 

[FaithAlone]

again, what is shown MUST be taken with the rest of scripture.

That's why I posted so many scriptures that I believe say that we are saved forever once we are saved and can't turn away from salvation. You aren't looking at those verses along with the Bible as a whole. If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption how can we be unsealed before? If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable then how can we revoke them? If He who began a good work in me will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus was He lying? If we have already passed out of judgement and into life how can we pass back into death? We were dead in our transgressions but when we accept Christ as our Savior we pass out of judgement and are alive for once and for all. If ALL things are lawful for us (but not all things are profitable) then how in the world could we do anything to lose, I'm sorry, apostate ourselves from salvation? If there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus then how can we do anything to be condemned? If Christ keeps us then are we stronger than Him?

 

[AshenK]

Does the actions of the body affect the soul/spirit?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell.

You should be asking, Do the actions of the body/soul affect the spirit? Because Jesus hadn't died, when He said that.

 

[Egghead]

That's why I posted so many scriptures that I believe say that we are saved forever once we are saved and can't turn away from salvation. You aren't looking at those verses along with the Bible as a whole. If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption how can we be unsealed before? If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable then how can we revoke them? If He who began a good work in me will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus was He lying? If we have already passed out of judgement and into life how can we pass back into death? We were dead in our transgressions but when we accept Christ as our Savior we pass out of judgement and are alive for once and for all. If ALL things are lawful for us (but not all things are profitable) then how in the world could we do anything to lose, I'm sorry, apostate ourselves from salvation? If there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus then how can we do anything to be condemned? If Christ keeps us then are we stronger than Him?

The problem is you are ONLY taking into account those passage that agree with your doctrine and not finding out how they fit with the warnings.

If there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus then how can we do anything to be condemned?

Now HOW is that passage in Romans 8 actaully worded?

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1)

IF you are walking according to the Spirit there is no condemnation.
There IS a condition there whether some like it or not.

I'm sorry, apostate ourselves from salvation?

What does it say?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come, and having fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6)

These WERE falling away (hence the writers warnings)
These WERE repentant.
Not make-believers as some need to force into the text.

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.

Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)

Not to mention other warnings in the NT.
These are the 2 that stand out the most, in my opinion.

Now, OSASers and Calvinists have to make them say anything other than what they do, but I believe we take them alongside the ones in your OP to see the whole truth, not reword them, or say that Hebrews only applies to one group of people long since dead (which would mean anyone can reject any scripture as only applying to its originally intended listeners)

Your passages are true, just as Jesus saying He was sent only to Israel is true.
And we know there is more to be taken into account before we decide what Jesus meant, just as there is here.

We are called to rightly divide the word, not browse thru it for all the ear tickling, eyecandy we can find.

The warnings are in there for a reason.
If a man cannot fall away ever, then making false warnings is nothing short of a waste of time and a lie.

 

[Egghead]

You should be asking, Do the actions of the body/soul affect the spirit? Because Jesus hadn't died, when He said that.

So now youve divided it into yet a third item to worry about.

The body and soul can end up in hell...will this separate spirit go there too?

 

[John1335]

My apologies for such a large post; however, it seems as though many here are struggling with the concept of your salvation, the fear of losing your salvation, and what it would take to lose your salvation or the issue of if you can..

Many have tried to argue for one side or the other, and there are many convincing arguments, but I have one that has helped me tremendously, I would like to share it with you, please bear with the large post as I truly hope that it helps each of you grasp an understanding of this controversial and highly debated subject.

Once again, I apologize for such a long post, but this is very good reading which you should all read through and comment on as you like. If I can do but one thing to minister to those here who are fellow believers in Jesus Christ struggling with this issue.. I would like to share this message with you:



John 5:24

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on Him that sent me. Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but is passed from death to life.”










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John 10:27-30

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”










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Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed”










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Romans 5:8-10

“But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by His life.”










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Romans 8:1

There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus.” (qualification in remainder of verse not present in the Greek).










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1 Corinthians 1:8,9

“Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”










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Ephesians 4:30

“And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”










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Philippians 1:6

“Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”










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1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He that calleth you who also will do it.”










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2 Timothy 1:12

“……For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.”










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2 Timothy 2:19

“Nevertheless that foundation of God standeth sure having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are His.”










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Hebrews 9:12,15

“Neither by the blood of goats and calves but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us. And for this cause He is the mediator of the New Testament, but by means of death….they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”










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Hebrews 10:14

“For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are (being), sanctified.











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1 Peter 1:3-5

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, that fadeth not away reserved in Heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”













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1 John 2:19

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”











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1 John 3:5-11

“And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the Devil: for the Devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the Devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message ye heard from the beginning….."










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Jude 1

“……to them that are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.











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Jude 24

“Now to Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presense of His Glory with exceeding joy.”










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That was part one, the scriptural evidence of assurance for salvation (to those who truly possess it), but everything must be viewed as a whole, you all should read the rest of the article; as I'm sure that many of you are not as of yet convinced.



www-delusionresistance-org/christian/canachristianbedamned-html

 

[NPH]

Ha, as often as we Catholics are accused of 'necromancy' it's fun to see a protestant necroposting on this way old thread

BTW, Egghead, if you don't stop posting things that I can actually agree with they might take away your protestant union card