Salvation is an Experience

[Soyeong]

An extrinsic result is not part of the essential nature of something, such as with earning a pay check by doing a job, whereas an intrinsic result is part of the essential nature of something, such as when we do some sort of activity with a friend, then we are not rewarded with a closer relationship with them, but rather that is intrinsically part of experiencing that activity together, and our relationship with God is similar. The connection between our works and going to heaven/righteousness/eternal life/salvation is often mistaken as being an extrinsic result such as something that is earned as a wage if we do enough works, and while the Bible repeatedly denies this connection, that is often mistaken as meaning that there is no connection, but the Bible repeatedly supports an intrinsic connection.

Some verses that speak against an extrinsic connection: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21.

Some verses that nevertheless support an intrinsic connection: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Galatians 5:19-22, James 2:17-24, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by our obedience to it as a wage, the experience of living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically connected with the experience of Jesus saving us from living in disobedience to it.

The Hebrew word "yada" refer to knowledge that is gained by experience, relationship, or intimacy, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. According to John 17:3, the content of God's give of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus, which and that relationship is the intrinsic result of expressing God's nature through our obedience to His commands, not the extrinsic result of earning eternal life by our obedience as a wage. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life. So eternal life a relational experience of knowing God and His laws teach us how to have that experience through expressing His nature.

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in expressing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to know God and Jesus, who is the expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commandments are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to sin in transgression of God's law having neither seen nor known him, so again knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

our obedience to His law is the way to know God and Jesus, who is the expression of God's nature

This statement doesn't stack up.

Think of Paul's life and conversion.

He Knew and kept the Law but didn't know Jesus.

His subsequent conversion had nothing to do with keeping the Law.

 

[d taylor]

-​

In The Bible, when Eternal Life is spoken of as a here and now acquisition. That is always speaking of receiving God's free gift of eternal Life by faith in The Messiah.

When acquiring eternal life is spoken of as a future acquisition. That is referring to the reward aspect of the believers life, which is accomplished by works.

 

[Clare73]

An extrinsic result is not part of the essential nature of something, such as with earning a pay check by doing a job, whereas an intrinsic result is part of the essential nature of something, such as when we do some sort of activity with a friend, then we are not rewarded with a closer relationship with them, but rather that is intrinsically part of experiencing that activity together, and our relationship with God is similar. The connection between our works and going to heaven/righteousness/eternal life/salvation is often mistaken as being an extrinsic result such as something that is earned as a wage if we do enough works, and while the Bible repeatedly denies this connection, that is often mistaken as meaning that there is no connection, but the Bible repeatedly supports an intrinsic connection.

Some verses that speak against an extrinsic connection: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21.

Some verses that nevertheless support an intrinsic connection: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Galatians 5:19-22, James 2:17-24, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21)

Our salvation is first of all from God's penalty for our sin--his wrath (Romans 5:9) and condemnation (Romans 5:18).
It is secondarily from the power of sin.

 

[Soyeong]

This statement doesn't stack up.

Think of Paul's life and conversion.

He Knew and kept the Law but didn't know Jesus.

His subsequent conversion had nothing to do with keeping the Law.

I cited a number of verses that support that obedience to God's law is the way to know Him through expressing aspects of His nature, however, it is possible to obey God's law without knowing Him if it is obeyed in a way that does not express aspects of His nature. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so they were obeying the law while neglecting to express those aspects of God's nature that it was intended to teach us how to express. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same boat, where he had been obeying the law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had be missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.

Christ did not teach His own religion following a different God, but rather he came as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and he he practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, as followers of Christ, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and I see no reason to think that Paul becoming a follower of Christ would involve rejecting what Christ taught. On the contrary, in Acts 20:21-20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah in accordance with what Christ gave himself to accomplish (Titus 2:14), and Paul planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he had been teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it, so Jews coming to faith were not ceasing to obey the Torah. This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews. So Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as a Pharisee, and Pharisees as Torah observant, and in Acts 24:14, he testified that that he continued to worship the God of our fathers, believing everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

 

[Soyeong]

Our salvation is first of all from God's penalty for our sin--his wrath (Romans 5:9) and condemnation (Romans 5:18).
It is secondarily from the power of sin.

If someone continued to live in sin, then they could not be considered to be saved from living in sin, so living in obedience to God's law is an intrinsic part of being saving from living in transgression of it.

 

[Soyeong]

-​

In The Bible, when Eternal Life is spoken of as a here and now acquisition. That is always speaking of receiving God's free gift of eternal Life by faith in The Messiah.

When acquiring eternal life is spoken of as a future acquisition. That is referring to the reward aspect of the believers life, which is accomplished by works.

In John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, so it is referring to a present experience. The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it does nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given to them as a gift, but rather that is the way to receive it. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is also an experience, the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, and obedience to it is the way to have faith in the Messiah.

 

[d taylor]

In John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, so it is referring to a present experience. The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it does nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given to them as a gift, but rather that is the way to receive it. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is also an experience, the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, and obedience to it is the way to have faith in the Messiah.

It may be an experience (by your definition) but it is an experience that happens in a moment of time.

As long as it takes for a person to here that is is faith in The Messiah, that is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life. To here that and understand this promise and then to believe it is true. When that occurs in a person, then this person is born again and becomes a child of God.

Some people because of poor instruction/teaching have to wade through a lot of incorrect information. So for that person it may take a while to actually find the truth. While others find Eternal Life quite quickly and believe with out much searching.

All by God's grace the long road and the short path.

As 5:24 states when a person believes in The Messiah they cross over from death to life. It does not say they will eventually cross over if they do this or that or even endure to the end. The verse guaranties at the moment of faith, the believer crosses over from death to life.

 

[Ligurian]

Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life. So eternal life a relational experience of knowing God and His laws teach us how to have that experience through expressing His nature.

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law,

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.


It's worse than forsaking the Law of God... it's turning to other gods instead.
Spiritual Adultery-->Idolotry-->Harlot. There was never just a vacuum.

Jeremiah 3:1-3 [3] And thou didst retain many shepherds for a stumbling-block to thyself: thou hadst a harlot’s face, thou didst become shameless toward all.LXX

 

[Ligurian]

This statement doesn't stack up.

Think of Paul's life and conversion.

He Knew and kept the Law but didn't know Jesus.

His subsequent conversion had nothing to do with keeping the Law.

Righteousness under that law required a sin-offering.

 

[Ligurian]

-​

In The Bible, when Eternal Life is spoken of as a here and now acquisition. That is always speaking of receiving God's free gift of eternal Life by faith in The Messiah.

Aren't you forgetting the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Ιησους... which speak of rescuing the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and preaching the Gospel to them? And you're forgetting the Book of Revelation, too.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Righteousness under that law required a sin-offering.

Can you respond to my post concerning Paul please.

 

[d taylor]

Aren't you forgetting the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Ιησους... which speak of rescuing the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and preaching the Gospel to them? And you're forgetting the Book of Revelation, too.

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-foc...isunderstood-words-in-the-bible-eternal-life/

https://faithalone.org/blog/immortality-is-not-eternal-life/

https://faithalone.org/blog/reaping-eternal-life-for-work-done-galatians-68/

https://faithalone.org/blog/eternal-life-now/

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/lay-hold-on-eternal-life-2/

 

[Ligurian]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles

Gentiles is a Roman word. The Greek word is ethnos... Ethnology, race.

How likely is it that the Empire of Rome would've seen
this Kingdom of the God of Israel on Earth
as glad tidings of peace?

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

 

[Ligurian]

Aren't you forgetting the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Ιησους... which speak of rescuing the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and preaching the Gospel to them? And you're forgetting the Book of Revelation, too.

[...]faithalone[...]

So... you don't care about fulfilled prophecy?
Or you think that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Hosea are false prophets?

 

[Ligurian]

our obedience to His law is the way to know God and Jesus, who is the expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).

This statement doesn't stack up.

Think of Paul's life and conversion.

He Knew and kept the Law but didn't know Jesus.

His subsequent conversion had nothing to do with keeping the Law.

Righteousness under that law required a sin-offering.

Can you respond to my post concerning Paul please.

Romans 7:14-19 ...that's Paul in a nutshell, right?

Well, I never had that problem, so he's not writing to me.
The uncircumcision must understand his imputation doctrines.
But my mind isn't wired that way.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Romans 7:14-19 ...that's Paul in a nutshell, right?

Well, I never had that problem, so he's not writing to me.
The uncircumcision must understand his imputation doctrines.
But my mind isn't wired that way.

Some say he is referring to his pre-conversion state.

I don't agree - He writes the Law of the Spirit on our hearts and still the flesh wages war against it.

You are a sinner like the rest of us.

We are saved by grace not obedience - yet obedience brings much eternal reward.

 

[Ligurian]

[...]He writes the Law of the Spirit on our hearts[...]

We are saved by grace not obedience

Jeremiah 31:30-34 But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in My Covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the House of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.[34] And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

John 14:21-26 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father. And I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ...[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw that (for all the sins of which she was convicted, wherein the House of Israel committed adultery, and I put her away, and gave into her hands a bill of divorcement,) yet faithless Juda feared not, but went and herself also committed fornication.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX
Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me, and I was chastened. I, as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord My God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me: for because My words are in him, I will surely remember him: therefore I made haste to help him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master: Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the Earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.[10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 ...obedience... John 12:44-50.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jeremiah 31:30-34 But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in My Covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the House of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.[34] And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

John 14:21-26 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father. And I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ...[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw that (for all the sins of which she was convicted, wherein the House of Israel committed adultery, and I put her away, and gave into her hands a bill of divorcement,) yet faithless Juda feared not, but went and herself also committed fornication.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX
Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me, and I was chastened. I, as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord My God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me: for because My words are in him, I will surely remember him: therefore I made haste to help him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master: Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the Earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.[10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 ...obedience... John 12:44-50.

Thanks for the cut and paste - now would you like to talk about it ?

 

[Soyeong]

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.


It's worse than forsaking the Law of God... it's turning to other gods instead.
Spiritual Adultery-->Idolotry-->Harlot. There was never just a vacuum.

Jeremiah 3:1-3 [3] And thou didst retain many shepherds for a stumbling-block to thyself: thou hadst a harlot’s face, thou didst become shameless toward all.LXX

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and it could not accurately be described as such if it did not teach us how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature, the way to know God is through acting in accordance with his nature, and the Son is the exact expression of His nature, so the goal of everything in the Bible is to testify about how to know the Father and the Son, which is eternal life (John 17:3). In Exodus 33:13 and Matthew 19:17, eternal life can be found in the Scriptures, so in John 5:39-40, the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to know him and come enter into a relationship with him for eternal life. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father taught. Forsaking the law is also forsaking the God whose nature is testified about by it, so it is the same as turning to other gods, which is why Deuteronomy 13:1-5 contrasts going after other gods with keeping God's commandments.

Righteousness under that law required a sin-offering.

In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through a sin offering, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ.

Gentiles is a Roman word. The Greek word is ethnos... Ethnology, race.

How likely is it that the Empire of Rome would've seen
this Kingdom of the God of Israel on Earth
as glad tidings of peace?

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Speaking about the Gospel going out to the nations instead has a similar meaning. In Matthew 10:5-7, Jesus did not yet send his disciple out to the nations, but that changed with the Great Commission. It was good news for the Romans to announce a new king with a new kingdom, so the concept of the Gospel was borrowed.