Salvation by faith alone?

[Inkachu]

I'm afraid not, Vicky.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philipians 2:12)

Then tell me how the thief on the cross "worked out" his salvation?

I think that verse is grossly misinterpreted way too often.

 

[Inkachu]

Rad, isn't that what I've been saying all along? Faith without works is DEAD. It is a combination of faith and works that justifies a man. Thank you for proving my point.

Again, you're using the word "justified" instead of "saved". They aren't the same thing! I'm guessing you believe that salvation has to be continually "kept" and can be "lost". I know there are a lot of Christians who believe that, but I'm not one of them.

And that whole subject is for another thread, lol.

I'm also stepping off this thread for now It's been fun!

 

[Tinkerbell33]

You do raise an interesting question Vicky.

My answer to it would be that, out of his faith the thief asked for forgiveness and repented, that was his act.

 

[Inkachu]

How are justification and salvation two different things?

Justification happens once you've obtained salvation; they work together, but they aren't the same thing.

Here's the two definition from Encarta Encyclopedia:

Justification: In Christian theology, the way in which the relationship between God and an individual believer, presumed to have been distorted or broken by sin, is set right. The word justify means literally “to make just” or “to make right.”

Salvation: In Christianity, individuals are thought of as being saved from eternal punishment through Christ's death on the cross.

 

[Tinkerbell33]

Works are a consequence of faith but it is not how much you do but how much love you put into it.

 

[Inkachu]

OK, I'm off the thread! PM me please, with any questions or comments

 

[Tylorick]

works are produced by faith. faith comes first, then the works..

1 Thessalonians 1

2We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers. 3We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

NIV

 

[DanC922]

Again, you're using the word "justified" instead of "saved". They aren't the same thing! I'm guessing you believe that salvation has to be continually "kept" and can be "lost". I know there are a lot of Christians who believe that, but I'm not one of them.

And that whole subject is for another thread, lol.

I'm also stepping off this thread for now It's been fun!

Would you mind telling me how salvation and justification are different? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post in the thread.

 

[WileyCoyote]

It does. Read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews. Practically all the Epistles Paul wrote talked about justification by faith. So, to help you out, here are some Scriptures.

Ro. 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith."

Ro 5:1-2 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Ga 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This one probably says it the best:
Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

All of these are wonderful scriptures, but none of them say "faith only". This is the third time Ephesians 2:8-9 has been quoted. I already covered this in my OP. The problem is that there are verses in the Bible that teach that salvation is by faith, but just because it says this you can't come to the conclusion that it is by FAITH ONLY. There are other verses that say that salvation is by works as well. You have to take the entire message to heart. If I came up to you with a bowl of cereal and milk and said that the bowl had milk in it, could you come to the conclusion that there was ONLY milk in the bowl? All I said was that there was milk in the bowl. Would it make sense for you to go tell a friend that I had a bowl with only milk in it? What if that friend came up to me to find out if this was true and I told the friend that there was cereal in the bowl? The friend goes up to you and says "You are clearly wrong. There is no milk in the bowl. He told me there was cereal in the bowl." Both you and your friend make a serious mistake. You both added more to my words than I said. I never said that the bowl contained ONLY milk or ONLY cereal. I merely said that the bowl contained these ingredients. If they looked at the whole picture, they would indeed discover that the bowl contained both ingredients. Of course, at this point, the cereal would be soggy so I would have to toss it out instead of enjoy it.

This is the tragic mistake that "salvation by faith" and "salvation by works" proponents do. They only quote the verses that support their position. But the Bible supports BOTH positions. Does the Bible contradict itself? All throughout this thread, nobody has been able to give me a clear cut scripture that says that salvation is by faith alone. All you've given me is verses that says salvation is by FAITH. Some of them have the word 'works' thrown in but as I've already demonstrated, good works is not the same as an observance of the law. You can't tell me that salvation is by faith alone because of verses that tell me that salvation is by faith. You are assuming there is only milk in that bowl. No, it is a combination of both. That's the problem with a lot of saved folk. They either want to go WAY over to the right or WAY over to the left. When there are two extremes, the truth can usually be found somewhere in the middle. So accept BOTH views and enjoy a complete bowl of cereal. Just make sure you eat it before it gets soggy.

 

[leothelioness]

All of these are wonderful scriptures, but none of them say "faith only".

Really? So, Ephesians doesn't say it clearly enough?

This is the third time Ephesians 2:8-9 has been quoted

You know why? Because it contains your answer. "For by grace are ye saved through faith......Not of works lest any man should boast."

What does that mean, "lest any man should boast,"? It means that if man was saved and justified by works he would boast of his good works and it would become a contest to see who could do the most good works. It's not supposed to be that way. Man cannot be justified by anything he does, but rather by his faith in God.

Like I said before, you're only going to see in those Scriptures what you want to see.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Really? So, Ephesians doesn't say it clearly enough?


You know why? Because it contains your answer. "For by grace are ye saved through faith......Not of works lest any man should boast."

What does that mean, "lest any man should boast,"? It means that if man was saved and justified by works he would boast of his good works and it would become a contest to see who could do the most good works. It's not supposed to be that way. Man cannot be justified by anything he does, but rather by his faith in God.

Like I said before, you're only going to see in those Scriptures what you want to see.

You haven't read my OP, have you?

If good works don't accompany your faith, you don't have genuine faith. If you say you are saved but don't produce any evidence through your good works, your salvation can be questioned. The "works" talked about that can't justify us is an OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW. You can't try to keep the law to earn your salvation. GOOD WORKS are different from this. They are the evidence that you have been born again. I like to call them LOVE WORKS. As I've shown in my OP, if you don't love your brothers and sisters in the Lord, your faith won't work. And if your faith doesn't work, you are not saved. Period. I'm not seeing the verses I only want to see. I've observed BOTH sides of the argument and am in the middle. You can say that I've taken the "moderate" view of salvation. If there are verses both proclaiming that salvation is by faith and salvation is by works, which one is right? Which one has the most evidence? Let's present all the scriptures.


Salvation is by FAITH ALONE

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3:20
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.
Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?
Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.


Salvation is NOT by faith alone

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.
Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.
Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.
(Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html)


So as you can see, both groups can make a convincing argument. I have examined both sides of the argument, not only "see what I want to see". I'm convinced because of supporting scriptures that it is a combination of BOTH faith and works.

You still have failed to show me where the Bible says "salvation by faith alone". None of the scriptures listed says that. If you can show me one, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Inkachu]

Crikey, I'm really trying to stay out of this, but Wiley...a lot of the Scriptures you're using for the "works" argument aren't even talking about salvation! Sorry, but I can't keep silent when I see Scripture being mis-used in my view.

 

[rachey88]

I believe that it's not by faith alone that you can be saved. I believe that you have to have faith, confess and repent with you your mouth and make it public and then you will be truely saved. But at the same time... I think there are exceptions... because say someone has been shot and someone saw it and comes and prays with them... and the victim confesses and prays to accept Jesus as their saviour will they be saved eventhough they haven't been baptised or been able to do good things?

 

[WileyCoyote]

Crikey, I'm really trying to stay out of this, but Wiley...a lot of the Scriptures you're using for the "works" argument aren't even talking about salvation! Sorry, but I can't keep silent when I see Scripture being mis-used in my view.

Which ones, Vicky?

 

[WileyCoyote]

I'm still waiting for a scripture that says we are saved by FAITH ONLY. I will also accept FAITH ALONE. If we really were saved by faith alone, it would say it just like that in the Bible.

 

[leothelioness]

You haven't read my OP, have you?

If good works don't accompany your faith, you don't have genuine faith. If you say you are saved but don't produce any evidence through your good works, your salvation can be questioned. The "works" talked about that can't justify us is an OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW. You can't try to keep the law to earn your salvation. GOOD WORKS are different from this. They are the evidence that you have been born again. I like to call them LOVE WORKS. As I've shown in my OP, if you don't love your brothers and sisters in the Lord, your faith won't work. And if your faith doesn't work, you are not saved. Period. I'm not seeing the verses I only want to see. I've observed BOTH sides of the argument and am in the middle. You can say that I've taken the "moderate" view of salvation. If there are verses both proclaiming that salvation is by faith and salvation is by works, which one is right? Which one has the most evidence? Let's present all the scriptures.


Salvation is by FAITH ALONE

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3:20
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.
Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?
Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.


Salvation is NOT by faith alone

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.
Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.
Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.
(Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html)


So as you can see, both groups can make a convincing argument. I have examined both sides of the argument, not only "see what I want to see". I'm convinced because of supporting scriptures that it is a combination of BOTH faith and works.

You still have failed to show me where the Bible says "salvation by faith alone". None of the scriptures listed says that. If you can show me one, it would be greatly appreciated.

Okay, I'm not sure what you want to know. Are you talking about salvation or justification? We seem to be talking about two different things here. But in either case, that verse in Ephesians nails it.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Okay, I'm not sure what you want to know.

I want to know ONE place in the Bible where it says we are saved by faith only or faith alone.

 

[leothelioness]

I want to know ONE place in the Bible where it says we are saved by faith only or faith alone.

Okay, and that ONE place has been given to you time and time and time again. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."

In other words, one does not work for their salvation because it is a free gift of God by His Grace. It is completely unmerited. If you worked for it, it would no longer be a free gift nor would it be unmerited.

It is there for you to see in black and white, and I have explained it to you numerous times. If you cannot or are not willing to accept it, then there is nothing more I can do. I'm afraid I'll have to go the way of Ink and bow out of this thread.

 

[Tinkerbell33]

Yep, we are saved by faith, not by our actions but if we have faith then we will have good actions. Does that make sense to you all?

 

[vibrant]

interesting debate going on.