Saint? Clement of Alexandria

[Michael G]

There was St. Clement of Rome, who was a Pope, wasn't he?

Could you be confusing the two?

No, Clement of Rome and Clement of Alexandria are two totally different men.

 

[Michael G]

I don't even think St. Augustine is universally accepted as a saint in Orthodoxy, correct me if I'm wrong.

When I asked my priest about this very matter a few weeks ago he was very quick to point out to me the canons of a number of the ecumenical councils list St. Augustine as being a Father of the Church. He is universally accepted by the Orthodox Church as being a saint.

 

[Kristos]

Origen too is considered a great theologian...but he's not a saint. One can be a "holy man" but still hold heretical views, which is why the Church doesn't recognise all holy men as Holy men.

Ironically, Origen was his pupil. Regardless, of his official title within the Church, his positive contributions cannot be denied.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Origen too is considered a great theologian...but he's not a saint. One can be a "holy man" but still hold heretical views, which is why the Church doesn't recognise all holy men as Holy men.

Except that in Greek, that would say that he was αγιος

 

[MariaRegina]

No, Clement of Rome and Clement of Alexandria are two totally different men.

Hey, I knew that.

Bishop Clement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria - OrthodoxWiki (icon without halo)

He was not born in Egypt (Stromata, i. 1) as his name suggests; rather, Alexandria was his bishopric. Athens is named as his birthplace by the sixth-century Epiphanius Scholasticus, and this is supported by the classical quality of his Greek. His parents seem to have been wealthy pagans of some social standing. The thoroughness of his education is shown by his constant quotation of the Greek poets and philosophers. He traveled in Greece, Italy, Palestine, and finally Egypt. He became the colleague of Pantaenus, the head of the Catechetical School of Alexandria and the man who likely converted him to Christianity, and finally succeeded him in the direction of the school. His best known pupil was Origen (who was condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council. During the persecution of Septimius Severus (202 or 203) he sought refuge with Alexander, then bishop of Flaviada in Cappadocia, afterward of Jerusalem, from whom he brought a letter to Antioch in 211. After this, he died sometime in the next five years without returning to Egypt.

. . .
Charges of heresy

According to Clement, though Christ's goodness operated in the creation of the world, the Son himself was immutable, self-sufficient, and incapable of suffering. According to his interpretation, such are the characteristic qualities of the divine essence. Though the Logos is most closely one with the Father, whose powers he resumes in himself, to Clement both the Son and the Spirit are "first-born powers and first created"; they form the highest stages in the scale of intelligent being, and Clement distinguishes the Son-Logos from the Logos who is immutably immanent in God. Because of this Photius would later charge that he "degraded the Son to the rank of a creature." Separate from the world as the principle of creation, the Logos is yet in it as its guiding principle. Thus a natural life is a life according to the will of the Logos. Clement has also been accused of Docetism in his teachings on the Incarnation. According to him, the body of Christ was not subject to human needs. See the following passage from Stromateis which clearly denies Christ's full humanity:
In regard to the Savior, however, it were ridiculous to suppose that the body demanded, as a body, the necessary aids for its maintenance. For He ate, note for the sake of the body, which had its continuance from a holy power, but lest those in His company might happen to think otherwise of Him, just as aftewards some did certainily supposed that He had appeared as a mere phantasm. He was in general dispassionate; and no movement of feeling penetrated Him, whether pleasure or pain.2 Instead, Clement's Christ is a supernatural physician; He is not subject to humanity's bodily pain. The medicine which he offers is the communication of saving gnosis, leading men from paganism to faith and from faith to the higher state of knowledge. This true philosophy includes within itself the freedom from sin and the attainment of virtue. As all sin has its root in ignorance, so the knowledge of God and of goodness is followed by well-doing. Against the Gnostics Clement emphasizes the freedom of all to do good (for which he has also been called Semi-Pelagian).

Pope St. Clement of Rome

Clement of Rome - OrthodoxWiki (icon with halo)

Our father among the saints Clement of Rome (also called Clemens Romanus to distinguish him from Clement of Alexandria) was the third in succession after the Apostle Peter as bishop of Rome. Clement is known mainly for the letter he wrote to the Corinthians in about AD 96. He is counted among the apostolic fathers. His feast day is November 23 in the west, but in the east he is remembered on November 25).

See the wiki links for more information. In fact, google these names for some exciting reads.

 

[Christos Anesti]

It looks like the Anglicans continued to honor him with a feast day even after the Catholics stopped doing so.

This is the prayer associated with the day:

[SIZE=+2]"O[/SIZE] God of unsearchable wisdom, you gave your servant Clement grace to understand and teach the truth as it is in Jesus Christ, the source of all truth: Grant to your church the same grace to discern your Word wherever truth is found; through Jesus Christ our unfailing light, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen."

In the Catholic Church he still called "Saint Clement of Alexandria" but he no longer has a feast day.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Wait a minute! This Catholic web page states that he does still have a feast day in the Catholic Church. Why so much contradictory information on this subject? Maybe I will ask in the Catholic forum.

St. Clement of Alexandria
Feastday: December 4
217

Confessor and teacher at the Catechetical School in Alexandria. Egypt. Born Titus Flavius Clemens, he trained Origen and left numerous writings.

 

[Kristos]

Wait a minute! This Catholic web page states that he does still have a feast day in the Catholic Church. Why so much contradictory information on this subject? Maybe I will ask in the Catholic forum.

yep

 

[Michael G]

Wait a minute! This Catholic web page states that he does still have a feast day in the Catholic Church. Why so much contradictory information on this subject? Maybe I will ask in the Catholic forum.

Just because the Romans venerate someone as a saint does not mean the Orthodox do, even if that person is pre-schism.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Just because the Romans venerate someone as a saint does not mean the Orthodox do, even if that person is pre-schism.

True. If the Western Christians (who were Orthodox at the time) venerated him before the schism it would show that he was held by Orthodox to be a saint though wouldn't it ? I'm not sure we can pass over what the Orthodox in the West did simply because that area would later fall into schism. I believe he was also venerated by Orthodox in Alexandria as a Saint too? The OO veneration of him as a Saint has roots in the practice of pre-schism Alexandrians. At least that is what I have read.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I just got back to reading that book again and finished it. I found a part on the last two pages that I really liked. It's a saying attributed to the Apostle Matthew and it's pretty humbling.

"It is said that the apostle Matthew used to constantly preach, "If a Christian's neighbor sins, the Christian himself has sinned. For if he had conducted himself as the Word says, his neighbor would have been filled with such reverence for the Christian life that he would not sin any longer."

 

[Mary of Bethany]

True. If the Western Christians (who were Orthodox at the time) venerated him before the schism it would show that he was held by Orthodox to be a saint though wouldn't it ? I'm not sure we can pass over what the Orthodox in the West did simply because that area would later fall into schism. I believe he was also venerated by Orthodox in Alexandria as a Saint too? The OO veneration of him as a Saint has roots in the practice of pre-schism Alexandrians. At least that is what I have read.

This is true - otherwise we would not have the wealth of Saints that we have from the pre-schism British Isles!

Mary

 

[Cole C.]

I don't even think St. Augustine is universally accepted as a saint in Orthodoxy, correct me if I'm wrong.

You'd be correct, but some of his views are foundational and I personally think cannot be rejected, namely, Original Sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

this thread is over a decade old...

 

[Cole C.]

this thread is over a decade old...

Just realizing that now, lol. I'm new here.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Just realizing that now, lol. I'm new here.

haha, sorry, just saw that. and from time to time we have folks who have been here a while resurrect old threads.

 

[Cole C.]

haha, sorry, just saw that. and from time to time we have folks who have been here a while resurrect old threads.

Ok, thank you. I got to figure this site out and find recent threads.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok, thank you. I got to figure this site out and find recent threads.

you're good, it can take a bit, haha. but do feel free to stick around TAW (the Eastern Orthodox subforum).

 

[Kristos]

Is outrage!

 

[ArmyMatt]

just waiting for Rob...