Romans 9:6 ff - what is that saying?

[Spiritual Jew]

In order to be spiritual/true Israel, you must first be Israel, a necessary condition.

Where are you seeing that? I don't see that at all. I believe Paul makes it very clear that being part of spiritual Israel has nothing at all to do with being part of national Israel.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

What I see Paul saying here is that being a physical descendant of the nation of Israel and of Abraham is not what makes someone part of spiritual Israel, but rather being a child of God and child of the promise makes someone part of spiritual Israel and a spiritual child of Abraham. So, then the question is who are the children of God and of the promise who are regarded as spiritual children of Abraham? We can see that here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are the children of God and of the promise are are the spiritual seed of Abraham, so they are the ones who are part of spiritual Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because none of those scripture passages say or imply we are spiritual Israel.

You are reading that statement into them.

We may agree to disagree on how we interpret them, that is fine.

But you do agree with me that Isaac and Jacob are not your father in any way, correct?

I guess you've never read this:

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[Guojing]

I guess you've never read this:

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

I did, it did not say we are Isaac's descendants/seed.

It says we are children of promise, as Isaac was.

These 2 statements have 2 different meanings.

If you are a child of your father, as your sibling is.

Can I reason that your sibling is therefore your father?

 

[Guojing]

Where are you seeing that? I don't see that at all. I believe Paul makes it very clear that being part of spiritual Israel has nothing at all to do with being part of national Israel.

A necessary condition is not a sufficient condition, and vice versa.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

What I see Paul saying here is that being a physical descendant of the nation of Israel and of Abraham is not what makes someone part of spiritual Israel, but rather being a child of God and child of the promise makes someone part of spiritual Israel and a spiritual child of Abraham. So, then the question is who are the children of God and of the promise who are regarded as spiritual children of Abraham? We can see that here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are the children of God and of the promise are are the spiritual seed of Abraham, so they are the ones who are part of spiritual Israel.

Galatians 3:26 is about the Body of Christ.

Romans 9:6 is about Israel.

Israel and the Body of Christ are not the same. You cannot take Paul's statement in another epistle and force fit into what he was saying in Romans 9:6, that is what out of context means.

 

[Guojing]

Is Christ descended from Isaac and Jacob?

And so?

You mean you also believe you are the son of David, son of Solomon etc, just because they are part of the genealogy of Christ?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And so?

You mean you also believe you are the son of David, son of Solomon etc, just because they are part of the genealogy of Christ?

Yes, that is what being a Christian means. Christians are the body of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, that is what being a Christian means. Christians are the body of Christ.

If that is how you are reasoning, alright then.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If that is how you are reasoning, alright then.

It is how saint Paul reasons too. The Church has always reasoned that way. We are in Christ, he is the Israel of God, God's Son called out of Egypt, and so forth.

 

[Guojing]

It is how saint Paul reasons too. The Church has always reasoned that way. We are in Christ, he is the Israel of God, God's Son called out of Egypt, and so forth.

But us in the Body of Christ being son of Isaac, son of Jacob, you have to provide the scripture for those, if you want to convince your readers that "It is how saint Paul reasons too".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But us in the Body of Christ being son of Isaac, son of Jacob, you have to provide the scripture for those, if you want to convince your readers that "It is how saint Paul reasons too".

We are in Christ, and if we are His body, then we embody what Christ is. Specifically, as Christ's body, we are the children of God, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as from David, and all the significant ancestors listed in the genealogies of Saint Matthew's and Saint Luke's gospels.

 

[Guojing]

We are in Christ, and if we are His body, then we embody what Christ is. Specifically, as Christ's body, we are the children of God, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as from David, and all the significant ancestors listed in the genealogies of Saint Matthew's and Saint Luke's gospels.

Please show the scripture in which you believed Paul taught that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Please show the scripture in which you believed Paul taught that.

To find references to the "body of Christ," consult a concordance, and you will locate them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I did, it did not say we are Isaac's descendants/seed.

It says we are children of promise, as Isaac was.

These 2 statements have 2 different meanings.

If you are a child of your father, as your sibling is.

Can I reason that your sibling is therefore your father?

The point is that we (believers in the church) are spiritual descendants of Isaac.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Galatians 3:26 is about the Body of Christ.

Romans 9:6 is about Israel.

Both Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:6-8 are about the children of God who are the children of promise and regarded as the spiritual seed of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The similarities between these passages should not be ignored. Both indicate that who or what someone is physically descended from is not a factor in determining whether one is a child of God and of the promise and counted as Abraham's spiritual seed. Instead, it's determined by whether or not someone belongs to Christ. And it's determined if someone is called in or through Isaac, which all believers, Jew and Gentile, are, as shown here:

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

It's clear, that being part of the Israel of which not all who are physically descended from the nation of Israel and from Abraham are part, is based on being a child of God and of the promise, which all believers, Jew and Gentile, are because of belonging to Christ.

Israel and the Body of Christ are not the same. You cannot take Paul's statement in another epistle and force fit into what he was saying in Romans 9:6, that is what out of context means.

Spiritual Israel and the Body of Christ are the same because the criteria for being in each is to be a child of God and of the promise and to be regarded as Abraham's spiritual seed. You can't just brush it aside when I use scripture to interpret scripture. Scripture is never meant to be interpreted in isolation without taking the rest of scripture into account.

 

[Guojing]

To find references to the "body of Christ," consult a concordance, and you will locate them.

Specifically, as Christ's body, we are the children of God, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as from David, and all the significant ancestors listed in the genealogies of Saint Matthew's and Saint Luke's gospels.

 

[Guojing]

The point is that we (believers in the church) are spiritual descendants of Isaac.

So If you are a child of your father, as your sibling is.

You will conclude that you descended from your sibling.

Alright then.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So If you are a child of your father, as your sibling is.

You will conclude that you descended from your sibling.

Alright then.

The responses you have provided so far may reflect either unclear wording or theology. However, the conclusion of your interlocutors remains the same as what was previously stated, namely, since Jesus Christ is the Israel of God in His humanity, His body is likewise the Israel of God.

 

[Guojing]

The responses you have provided so far may reflect either unclear wording or theology. However, the conclusion of your interlocutors remains the same as what was previously stated, namely, since Jesus Christ is the Israel of God in His humanity, His body is likewise the Israel of God.

It is perfectly fine to have your own way of interpreting scripture.

It is different to insist that the way you interpret scripture, is the way the writer meant as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is perfectly fine to have your own way of interpreting scripture.

It is different to insist that the way you interpret scripture, is the way the writer meant as well.

Are you not arguing your own way of interpreting scripture? Isn't it you who is reading the passages and interpreting them away?

 

[Guojing]

Are you not arguing your own way of interpreting scripture? Isn't it you who is reading the passages and interpreting them away?

I did not say Paul reason the same way. I am offering my understanding of what he is saying.

If you disagree with my understanding, I am perfectly fine, as I have said to you many times.