Revelation 12

[tranquil]

There has been some interesting discussion on here about Revelation 12. I would like to present a different interpretation, with some Bible verses to support it. I welcome your thoughts and criticism! Bible verses in italics from NIV.

Firstly, most of the interpretations of Revelation 12 I have seen here relate to past events from the perspective of John. However the beginning of Revelation points to it being of future events:

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...
Revelation 1:1a

I believe instead that Revelation 12 relates to the events of the 1940s: the Second World War, the Holocaust, the formation of Israel and the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Here is why:

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."
Revelation 12:5

This son who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter appears to be Jesus (e.g. Rev 19:15). However an underlying principle to understand the symbolism of the people and beasts in Revelation - and elsewhere in the Bible, such as Daniel, is that they represent large groups of people - empires, nations or organizations. Sometimes they can reference an individual who represents the group as its' leader. A good example to show this is Daniel's explanation to Nebuchadnezzar of his dream:

"This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
"After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
Daniel 2:36-39

Nebuchadnezzar's dream was of a great statue with a head of gold, shoulders of silver and a torso of bronze. Daniel says the head of gold is Nebuchadnezzar, as king he represents his empire: Babylon. However, when he talks about the next two parts of the statue he talks about kingdoms, not their kings. The first three parts of the statue are generally understood to represent the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece.

Using this principle, the son referred to in Revelation 12 is not Jesus Christ himself, just as the head of gold was not Nebuchadnezzar, but who they represent: Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon, so represented Babylon. Jesus Christ is king of Israel, so the son being born in Revelation 12 represents the country of Israel - born in 1948.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Revelation 12:1

This is a reference to Joseph's dream:

Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
Genesis 37:9

In Joseph's dream the sun and moon were his father, Jacob, and mother, Rachel, and the eleven stars were his eleven brothers. So the twelve stars in the crown of the woman represent the twelve sons of Jacob - the twelve tribes of Israel. The woman, therefore, represents the Jews who gave birth to their country, Israel.

The enormous red dragon (later called Satan) swept a third of the stars out of the sky with its' tail. We have already seen that the stars are the Jews. So this is a reference to the Holocaust, and therefore the dragon, Satan, represents Nazi Germany at this time, with the Holocaust happening at the tail end of the Nazi reign.
Later on, in verse 15, Satan makes one further attempt to fight the woman, with a river of water from his mouth. This represents the 1948 Arab-Israeli war immediately after Israel's Declaration of Independence, with the river of water being the surrounding nations unsuccessfully invading Israel.

I think it fits together and makes sense, but please let me know what you think.

Looking through your website, I just wanted to comment on Daniel 7 and its relation to Rev 13.

The Daniel 7 4th beast has died at the 7th Trumpet.

Dan 7​

11Then I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.​

​

12As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time.​

The 1st half of the Dan 9:27 covenant (same time as the 2 witnesses 1260 days) is when the saints are given into his hand for a 'time, times, half a time' (Dan 7:25).

At Rev 13, the Dan 7 4th beast has died (he only got to have the saints for a time, times, and half a time) and then 'the rest of the beasts' are given an extension of life. The 'rest of the beasts' are the other 3 beasts mentioned in Rev 13: the leopard, bear, and lion. There is no mention of the 4th beast because it is dead.

Rev 13:5 says that the dragon gives an extension of life to the beast from the sea (the leopard, bear, and lion) for 42 months. This is shortened to the 'season and a time' of Daniel 7:12 above. This is one manner by which the days of the great tribulation are shortened from Matt 24:21-22. This 'season and a time' is literally the 70 weeks of Dan 9:24 as I described in my chart.

 

[Douggg]

As to March 2025, we will know if I have to 'start over' much sooner than that. By Oct 17, 2024, I will know as this will be the start of the fall of Babylon and will look like the end of the world (as described in the 6th Seal).

Please explain what you mean by the start of the fall of Babylon. Will look like the end of the world ?

 

[tranquil]

Please explain what you mean by the start of the fall of Babylon. Will look like the end of the world ?

Rev 17

9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen,​

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one is,​

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the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.​

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We don't need a history lesson about who the 'five that have fallen' are. That has already happened. Presumably they are: Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Medeo-Persia, and Greece. But really, it doesn't matter. I don't care.

The 'one that is' is the #6 Babylon. We are within the 'one that is' and is our current Babylon. Is this an acceptable proposition? (Maybe we can just be explicit and say the US in general, but I am totally fine with just sticking with Babylon).

The 7th king would be the one you call the 'antichrist', yes? And the 8th could be construed as the resurrected 7th king, yes?

The current Babylon, #6 king, has to be done away with to bring in the 7th king, yes or no?

When the 2nd Trumpet says that there is a 'burning mountain tossed into the sea', this is a reference to the fall of Babylon.

Jeremiah 51​

1This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I will stir up against Babylon and against the people of Leb-kamai the spirit of a destroyer.​

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2 I will send strangers to Babylon to winnow her and empty her land; for they will come against her from every side in her day of disaster.​

14The LORD of Hosts has sworn by Himself: “Surely I will fill you up with men as with locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you.”​

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24Before your very eyes I will repay Babylon and all the dwellers of Chaldea for all the evil they have done in Zion,” declares the LORD.​

25“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who devastate the whole earth, declares the LORD. I will stretch out My hand against you; I will roll you over the cliffs and turn you into a burnt mountain.​

Just in these handful of verses, we see: the 'spirit of a destroyer' (compare with the 5th Trumpet's angel Abaddon/ Apollyon / 'destroyer'). We see the 'men like locusts' (compare with the 5th Trumpet's locusts). We see the burnt mountain as in the 2nd Trumpet.

So, the destruction of the #6 king of Babylon, our current Babylon, brings in 'men like locusts' and a 'spirit of a destroyer'.

When Dan 9:26 says,

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.​

We know that the term, 'city', means Babylon: Rev 17:18 And the woman that you saw [Mystery Babylon] is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

The 'sanctuary' is the current temple - the church. And they have the 'spirit of destroying' - the city & sanctuary.

Just look at current events: are there not 'men who want to destroy' that even call themselves a 'Flood'??! Yes!! They are the Al-Aqsa Flood! 7 October attacks - Wikipedia

Then the covenant is made in Dan 9:27. This covenant is made by the #7 king of Babylon, yes? Is this reasonable or not?

When Paul says,

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasy/ rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,​

That 'day' is the start of the Trumpets, which begins the apostasy.

Why does the apostasy start at the 'day'? Because the 'sanctuary' (the current church) is being attacked/ destroyed by the people of the prince to come.

As to what the end of the world will look like according to the 6th Seal:

There is a great earthquake, the sun and moon are darkened, and giant hail falls. In addition to disease outbreaks, financial collapse, and the outbreak of war/ terror attacks.

This is just my take on that: the great EQ is the Cascadia subduction quake in the Pacific NW in the US, maybe Yellowstone going off, New York City getting nuked, etc. That is just my opinion though.

All of that aside, would not the destruction of the current Babylon constitute great tribulation? Only that would bring about the arrival of the #7 king of Babylon.

 

[Douggg]

The 'one that is' is the #6 Babylon.

Revelation 17:10 is seven kings, not kingdoms. The kingdom in power at the time of John, and is associated with the 7 mountains of Revelation 17:9 is the Roman Empire.

The seven kings are a group of related kings of the Roman Empire. i.e. that group is the Julio-Claudian family.

five are fallen
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

one is
6. Nero

the other not yet to come
7. end times little horn

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[BibleDaniel7]

The 'woman' in Rev 12:1-5 represents Mary, who did give birth to the man child;- Jesus.
But the 'woman' in Rev 12:6 represents the faithful Christian peoples, the offspring of the 'woman', as Rev 12:17 shows.

I see them as all those angels who follow Satan and are now demonic spirits.

As Armageddon will happen at the Sixth to the Seventh Bowl, Rev 16:12-21, much must take place before then.
The next Prophesied event has to be the Sixth Seal, the world changer which will commence all the prophesied end times things.

Hi Keras

Thank you again for replying and answering my questions. It seems a bit odd in your interpretation that the woman is Mary in verses 1-5, and then the woman is her offspring in verse 6, why wouldn't verse 6 mention her offspring, like it does in Rev 12:17? Are you also saying that faithful Christians are in some way offspring of Mary? If so, is that principle taught anywhere else in the Bible?

Some time ago I did a study on references to stars in the Bible, and concluded that, unless they were simply about stars, they were generally a reference to the Jews (possibly including Christians who have been grafted in - Rom 11:13-24 ). For example God promised Abraham twice that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky: Gen 15:5 Gen 22:17, and the same promise to Isaac: Gen 26:4. I already mentioned Joseph's dream in my original post. In Deu 1:10 Moses says to the Israelites: "the LORD your God has increased your numbers so that today you are as numerous as the stars in the sky." There are many more examples. Are you sure the stars in Revelation 1:4 refer to angels? I also don't think Satan and his demons fell from heaven around the time of Jesus' birth. Would you be prepared to consider that Revelation 12:4 is a reference to the Holocaust?

I agree with you that there are a number of events to happen before Armageddon. I am trying to understand this myself, which is why I am here in these forums. I saw you have a website on prophecy, I have bookmarked it and will look at it more closely in the next few days.

 

[BibleDaniel7]

I see that particular verse as Satan mobilizing a third of the angels that rebelled with him, bringing them down to earth to assist in Satan's effort to destroy baby Jesus as soon as he was born.

You are getting a lot of opinions in response to your opening post, best wishes in your quest to putting everything together.

Hi Douggg

I am very pleased to have had so many replies, I am getting plenty of food for thought and prayerful reflection. You are with Keras in your interpretation of Rev 12:4. I think it is the most common interpretation I have seen. Although as I said to Keras (without repeating here), I think stars are generally a symbol applied to the Jews in the Bible, rather than angels. And if you see the woman as Israel you have already identified the 12 stars in Revelation 12:1 with the 12 tribes, so it is strange to then say the stars in verse 4 are angels.

The next step after looking at Revelation 12 is Revelation 13, which seems to be part of the same vision. But the starting point for interpreting Revelation 13 is quite different if you think Revelation 12 happened in the first century, versus the twentieth century.

 

[keras]

Are you also saying that faithful Christians are in some way offspring of Mary? If so, is that principle taught anywhere else in the Bible?

We Protestants do not go so far as the Catholics, but yes: we are the children of Marys Son. His offspring, as Rev 12:17 refers back to Mary.

Some time ago I did a study on references to stars in the Bible, and concluded that, unless they were simply about stars, they were generally a reference to the Jews (possibly including Christians who have been grafted in

Stars can be metaphors for the faithful Christian peoples; Jew and gentile.
Isaiah 40:26-31 Lift up your eyes on high, consider the Creator of all things. He brings out His host, [people] one by one, each summoned by name, through His great power and strength, none is missing. You Israelites, do not say: Our God has forgotten us. Do you not know, have you not heard, the Lord, the Creator, does not weary and His understanding cannot be fathomed. He gives strength to the exhausted, as even the fittest grow faint, but those who trust Him will get new strength, they will soar as on eagles wings, march and not become tired. Isaiah 27:12

Isaiah 40:26 is usually translated so as to mean real stars, however the chapter commences with; ‘Comfort My people,’ and finishes with the beautiful promise of how the Lord will help His people go to their Land. Therefore in context, it must be more correct to apply ‘ His host’, to the Lord’s holy people and more logical than to think that He summons the stars, one by one, called by name? Actual;...stars set in place, Psalms 8:3

Would you be prepared to consider that Revelation 12:4 is a reference to the Holocaust?

No. That terrible event was just a continuation of the pogroms and persecution of the Jews since 70 AD.
Culminating with the Sixth Seal, which will virtually destroy Jewish Israel and only a Christian remnant will survive' Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 22:1-14