Questions about the Baha'i

[Mumin]

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[steve_bakr]

Allaah and the Prophet have shown otherwise.

And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember? (Surah al-Qamar 54:17)

And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. (Surah al-Anbiya 21:107)

So the Prophet Muhammad was sent to mankind, jinn, and all that exists. Other Prophets were only sent to their specific nations.

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (Surah ale 'Imraan 3:89)

O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise. (Surah an-Nisaa 4:170)

O mankind, there has come to you a conclusive proof from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light. So those who believe in Allah and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path. (4:174-175)

You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. (Suran ale 'Imran 3:110)

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it. (Surah at-Tawbah 9:33)

O mankind, there has to come to you instruction from your Lord and healing for what is in the breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers. (Surah Yunus 10:57)

Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray [in violation] against it. And I am not over you a manager." (Surah Yunus 10:108)

This [Qur'an] is notification for the people that they may be warned thereby and that they may know that He is but one God and that those of understanding will be reminded. (Surah Ibrahim 14:52)

Allaah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any amongst the Prophets before me. These are: -1. Allaah made me victorious by awe (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. -2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum. Therefore my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. -3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me (and was not made so for anyone else). -4. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind. -5. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection.) [Saheeh al-Bukhaari]

I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me. [Saheeh Muslim]

“This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not exclude a house made of clay or a woolen tent, but will make this religion enter it, by bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam), in a manner that glorifies Islam and humiliates disbelief.” [Al-Albani, on the condition of Muslim]

Furthermore, the Prophet Muhammad sent his companions to other lands to invite them to Islaam even though they were of different religions, cultures, and languages. He sent letters inviting kings to Islaam. This is what he said to Heraclius:

"In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

This letter is from Muhammad the slave of God and His Messenger to Heraclius, the ruler of the Byzantines.

Peace be upon him who follows the right path.

I am writing this invitation to call you to Islam. If you become a Muslim you will be safe - and God will double your reward, but if you reject this invitation of Islam you will bear the sin of having misguided your subjects. Thus do I urge you to heed the following:

“O People of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.”

Muhammad, the Messenger of God"

Egypt, Syria, Palestine, India, Persia, etc. had different languages, cultures, religions yet the Companions of the Prophet spread Islaam to them.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Plenty more to show that Islaam is meant for everyone and it is the one and only religion that God has ordained for mankind.

Islaam and the Qur'aan are not just for people who reach a so-called state of mind/heart where they can unlock special knowledge. They are for everyone. No secret knowledge that is unattainable except for the select few.

As for Ibn 'Arabi, well, he had some incredibly strange views such as saying that the people who were worshipping the calf were actually worshipping Allaah (or the people worshipping idols in the time of Noah peace be upon him were actually worshipping Allaah).

I think what Ibn Arabi said is that everyone worships the "God of their own belief," so that worshipping God is their intention, even if misled.

When I referred to the elect, I was referring to the Saints who are aware of the Absolute, or you might say, Al-Haqq.

I think the Quran is sometimes ambiguous about the People of the Book, which makes me wonder if different groups are being referred to. Some Christians were sympathetic and others may have been unsympathetic.

I believe it says at one point that the Christians who believe in the angels, the Day of Resurrection, pray regularly, give to Charity, and practice good deeds will be rewarded and will have nothing to fear.

It is true that the Quran can be polemical. But once again, I explained that, those who are aware of the Absolute, know that every religion is relative in the face of It, and many on the surface are exclusive.

Some Christians feel that Muslims are lost, and some Muslims feel that Christians are lost. But that argument just goes around in circles. Reza Shah-Kazemi points out that the highest Spirituality sees through the exclusive relativity and gets to the inner meaning of every religion.

By the way, Paradise and Hell can even be seen as relative, because they are created; and aren't they both just a projection of the nafs' fear of punishment and desire for pleasure?

The Saints I'm speaking of renounce both worlds and seek only Allah and His Presence.

 

[Mumin]

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[Niblo]

Hello Sen McGlinn:

I said there is no place where the Exalted cannot be. You replied that if this were the case there could be no evil, since evil is the absence of good.

Response:

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is absolute Goodness. It is part of His very nature, and as such is uncreated. It can never be absent.

It is the absence of created goodness - both natural and moral - that gives rise to evil. And this is the goodness you are referring to. Evil events happen - of course - but they do not, and cannot, limit the Exalted’s Omnipresence; nor oblige Him to impose limitations on Himself.

You say: ‘theologians in all the Abrahamic religions have suggested that while (the Exalted) could be fully present everywhere, in every thing, (He) has voluntarily chosen to "leave a space."’ (in order that evil might exist).

Response:

The omnipresence of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a matter of regular and general teaching, and is expressed in the Book of Psalms thus: ‘Where shall I go to escape your spirit? Where shall I flee from your presence? If I scale the heavens you are there, if I lie flat in Sheol, there you are. If I speed away on the wings of the dawn, if I dwell beyond the ocean, even there your hand will be guiding me, your right hand holding me fast.’ (139: 7-10); and again in the Book of Jeremiah: ‘“Can anyone hide somewhere secret without my seeing him?” Yahweh demands. “Do I not fill heaven and earth?” Yahweh demands.’ (23:24); and in the Qur’an: ‘Do you not see (Prophet) that Allāh knows everything in the heavens and earth? There is no secret conversation between three people where He is not the fourth, or between five where He is not the sixth, or between less or more than that without Him being with them, wherever they may be. On the Day of Resurrection, He will show them what they have done: Allāh truly has full knowledge of everything.’ (Al-Mujadala: 7).

It is often said that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can do anything He chooses; but this is not correct. What is correct is that He can do only what is in His nature to do. It is not in His nature to die, for example, and so He cannot bring about His own death.

Omnipresence is a divine attribute and, like all such attributes, is identical with the Beloved’s essence; with His very nature. He cannot withdraw Himself from any part of His creation; or ‘leave a space’ of any kind; and this is great news for us, because: ‘All creatures need to be preserved by God. For the being of every creature depends on God, so that not for a moment could it subsist, but would fall into nothingness were it not kept in being by the operation of the Divine power.’ (Summa Theological - St Thomas Aquinas: Part 1; Page 680); ‘And how could a thing subsist, had you not willed it? Or how be preserved, if not called forth by you?’ (Wisdom 11:25); ‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds’ (Al-Fatiha: 1).

Have a great day.

 

[Niblo]

Hello Susan,

Thank you for your reply.

My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote:

‘Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions. They do not cite other extant ancient writings that
support their position. They merely declare that any contradiction to the teaching of Baha'u'llah must be in error, and they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account.’

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!

You write: ‘We see the Manifestations as perfect mirrors reflecting the Names and Attributes of God. If we think of God as the sun, yes we all reflect His light in some manner or there would be no colours, but only a mirror can reflect what the sun really looks like. Of course, analogies can only take us so far.’

Bahá’u’lláh goes a lot further than that: ‘It hath, therefore, become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they who are the Day Springs of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty.... ‘ (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh: Number 19).

Response:

Here are the acknowledged attributes of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla): Absolute perfection, and to an infinite degree; absolute simplicity (being spirit, having no parts); absolute (i.e. uncreated) goodness; absolute immutability; eternal existence; omnipresence; perfection of divine knowledge; perfection of divine willing; omnipotence; supreme sovereignty and dominion over all things; infinite justice, and infinite mercy.

According to Bahá’u’lláh the ‘manifestations’ are ‘endowed with all’ of these. Does that sound like mere ‘reflection’ to you? What would you say if I were to insist (over and over) that my humble mirror, now reflecting the sun shining through my window as I write, is endowed with all the attributes of the sun?

What we see in the words of Bahá’u’lláh is not a set of ‘mirrors’ but a collection of mini-me’s.

Have a nice day!

 

[light upon light]

I would welcome help on this:

In the very last of the ‘Gleanings’ Bahá’u’lláh writes: ‘Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.’ (Gleaning 166).

This refers to 1000 years after Baha'u'llah.

 

[light upon light]

Hi Paul.

Regarding a place where God is not, of course this is not a reality.

And yet we as human beings can indeed be far from God, by turning our back on Him.

This from the Hidden Words describes the paradox:

"O MOVING FORM OF DUST!

I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance."

I would describe it thus: we can choose to be close to God, or fail to do so. That "space" which Sen was referring to was the freedom to decide love for God, or love for our self-centeredness. Of course God is equally omnipresent, but the perception of God's presence differs markedly for the creatures depending on their own choices.

EDIT:

This passage also relates on this theme:

"Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires."

 

[Mumin]

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[Niblo]

This refers to 1000 years after Baha'u'llah.

Hello Light.

Makes sense. Have edited my original post accordingly. Many thanks.

Have a great day.

 

[Niblo]

Hi Paul.

Regarding a place where God is not, of course this is not a reality.

And yet we as human beings can indeed be far from God, by turning our back on Him.

This from the Hidden Words describes the paradox:

"O MOVING FORM OF DUST!

I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance."

I would describe it thus: we can choose to be close to God, or fail to do so. That "space" which Sen was referring to was the freedom to decide love for God, or love for our self-centeredness. Of course God is equally omnipresent, but the perception of God's presence differs markedly for the creatures depending on their own choices.

EDIT:

This passage also relates on this theme:

"Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires."

Hello Light,

Agreed! Many thanks, and very best regards.

Paul

 

[Arthra]

Why Baha'is say "manifestation of God" instead of just "prophets"? What is their definition of "manifestation"?

And why do they say "manifestations reflect the attributes of God", instead of "they deliver a message" or any? which attributes are you referring to?

Thanks Mumin for an important question! Defining the concept of a "Manifestation of God" is essential. I'll offer here some definitions as we Baha'is understand it.

"A Divine Manifestation is as a mirror reflecting the light of the Sun. The light is the same and yet the mirror is not the Sun. All the Manifestations of God bring the same Light; they only differ in degree, not in reality. The Truth is one. The light is the same though the lamps may be different; we must look at the Light not at the Lamp. If we accept the Light in one, we must accept the Light in all; all agree, because all are the same. The teaching is ever the same, it is only the outward forms that change.

"The Manifestations of God are as the heavenly bodies. All have their appointed place and time of ascension, but the Light they give is the same. if one wishes to look for the sun rising, one does not look always at the same point because that point changes with the seasons. When one sees the sun rise further in the north one recognizes it, though it has risen at a different point."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 66

"Each of the Divine Manifestations has likewise a cycle, and during the cycle his laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When his cycle is completed by the appearance of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. In this way cycles begin, end, and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning. We have before stated proofs and evidences concerning this subject; there is no need of repetition."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 53

There's also a general explanation here:

Manifestations of God | What Bahá?ís Believe

From my study the Manifestation has innate knowldge ... He does not need "education" in the sense that normal humans need it.. I think some of the stories re. Jesus speaking as a babe were an attempt to approach this concept. The Manifestations also have tremendous impact on the advancement of civilization...

 

[Arthra]

Niblo wrote above:

My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote:

‘Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions. They do not cite other extant ancient writings that
support their position. They merely declare that any contradiction to the teaching of Baha'u'llah must be in error, and they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account.’

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!

My comment:

I haven't noticed that "Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions."

I think the writer should profide some example of what they mean.

Regarding the statement:

"they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account."

The Bible we regard as an inspired Holy Book...not necessarily accurate but containing Divine Inspiration. We do not believe in "corruption of the text".. I think if you review earlier posts on this thread you'll note that. There have been in our view interpretations by the divines that have mislead the people. We generally do not accept a word by word literal meaning of the Bible.

Niblo wrote:

"Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!"

I see Baha'is generally as having principles and perspectives that are based on our Writings. We also acknowledge the interpretations of these Writings by certain figures in our history such as Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Universal House of Justice can also deal with issues not included in the Writings where they affect the Baha'i community. So I don't find that Baha'is simply "...accept what they like, and reject what they please!"

 

[smaneck]

My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote

That explains it. I thought it sounded odd. Getting that sort of information from a Christian would be a little like asking a Muslim about the meaning of the Trinity. Perhaps not your best source.

‘Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions. They do not cite other extant ancient writings that support their position.

As you probably know, the concept of Prophets possessing infallibility ('ismat) is found in Islam as well. Yes, I realize that the Hebrew people did not see their Prophets that way. This is how Abdu'l-Baha explains the references to sin in connection with the Prophets of the Tanakh. Make of it, what you will:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 167-170

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!

I hope our approach is a little more nuanced than that. But if we do, how would that be any different from the way in which Muslims treat Judaism or Christianity? What we do believe is that revelation is something that has unfolded over time in accordance with people's capacity to understand.

You write: ‘We see the Manifestations as perfect mirrors reflecting the Names and Attributes of God. If we think of God as the sun, yes we all reflect His light in some manner or there would be no colours, but only a mirror can reflect what the sun really looks like. Of course, analogies can only take us so far.’

According to Bahá’u’lláh the ‘manifestations’ are ‘endowed with all’ of these. Does that sound like mere ‘reflection’ to you? What would you say if I were to insist (over and over) that my humble mirror, now reflecting the sun shining through my window as I write, is endowed with all the attributes of the sun?

I'd say I'd like to meet you and see if I can see the same thing.
Obviously if that were all Baha'u'llah was saying, I would not likely accept it. Ultimately it is the Message which proves the Messenger.

But as for what it means to be a Manifestation, I would say they are all we can understand about God humanly speaking, but I stop short of incarnation.

 

[Mumin]

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[smaneck]

My question, in other words is, why Baha'is don't speak clear? I asked "why you call it "manifestation" instead of "prophet"? And you speak unclearly again, you speak about the sun, etc. Tell me, if "manifestation" and "mirror" is "prophet", what is "sun" and "light"?

The term "manifestation" mazhar ilahi, zuhur was previously used in Shi'ite theology. Baha'is use it somewhat differently. I urge you to read the following article for a fuller understanding:

The Concept of Manifestation in the Bahá'í Writings

 

[Mumin]

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[Arthra]

That's not my question. "Manifestation" refers to "prophets". My question is why don't you say "prophets" instead of "manifestation"? And what is "sun" and "light"?

Thanks for the question!

"Sun" and "light" as used in this context refer to spiritual truth...Example:

I swear by the Sun of Truth, the light of agreement shall brighten and illumine the horizons.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 42)

"O friends of God, verily the Pen of Sincerity enjoineth on you the greatest faithfulness. By the Life of God, its light is more evident than the light of the sun! In its light and its brightness and its radiance every light is eclipsed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 46)

I think we use the term "Manifestation" as it explains better the relation between God and His Prophets and Messengers... We still use terms like prophets and messengers..

This Sun of Reality, this center of effulgences is the prophet or Manifestation of God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 11)

It is evident that the divine prophets have appeared in the world to establish love and agreement among mankind. They have been the shepherds and not the wolves. The shepherd comes forth to gather and lead his flock and not to disperse them by creating strife. Every divine shepherd has assembled a flock which had formerly been scattered.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 21)

To some the term "prophet" could be understood as a "minor prophet" rather than a Manifestation..

An example of the use of "Messenger":

Therefore we must follow and adore the virtues revealed in the messengers of God whether in Abraham, Moses, Jesus or other prophets but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 16)

 

[smaneck]

That's not my question. "Manifestation" refers to "prophets". My question is why don't you say "prophets" instead of "manifestation"? And what is "sun" and "light"?

Manifestations may be prophets, but not necessarily nor would I consider all prophets Manifestations. Prophethood is a function. "Manifestation" denotes a particular spiritual station.

 

[Niblo]

I'd say I'd like to meet you and see if I can see the same thing.

Hello Susan,

My humble mirror, now reflecting the sun shining through my window as I write, is endowed with all the attributes of the sun. It really is……..honest…………….I’m a Welshman……..would I lie?...........When can you get here?!

Yes, I was a wee bit wary of quoting someone associated with the Southern Evangelical Seminary of Charlotte, North Carolina. Mind you, I can see where he might have got his notion from, having read Bahá’u’lláh’s 19th Gleaning: ‘Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like…..’

Every belief - no matter how fantastical to the outsider - makes perfect sense to the Believer. And I’ve yet to meet a Believer who cannot justify their belief - at least to their own satisfaction - even if, in order to do so, they have to mutilate language beyond recognition, and abandon common sense altogether.

Bahá’u’lláh wasn’t stupid. He left himself - and his followers - plenty of wriggle-room when he added: ‘…….even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty....’

Oh…..regarding David L Johnson. You said: ‘Getting that sort of information from a Christian would be a little like asking a Muslim about the meaning of the Trinity.

I can give you that!

You have a good day now.

Paul.

 

[Mumin]

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