question to sura 9

[dcalling]

submission and peace has the same root in Arabic: S-L-M (iSLaM, SaLaM)

The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” peace is al-Salaam, there are some associations, maybe, but surrender and peace is definitely different. And if you want to know if Islam brings peace, just look at the world today

The Qur'an is the truth. But the hadith might be right or wrong.

You don't know if Quran is the truth. For example, when I don't know Bible/Quran etc, I have to study and decide which one is correct. The ahadith are recordings of Muhammad, it can be used as evidence. And when there are many evidences showing Muhammad didn't just defense, it means something.

2:193 Fight them until there is no (more) betrayal/misguidance and (until) worship is (acknowledged to be) for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in the religion...
9:95 ...So leave them alone; indeed they are evil; and their refuge is Hell as recompense for what they had been earning.
51:53 ... they (themselves) are a transgressing people 54 So leave them, (O Muhammad), for you are not to be blamed.
109:6 For you is your religion, and for me is my religion

See how clear the conflicts are just in the above statements? The bottom 4 is very peaceful, but the top one says gith till they acknowledge Allah. What does cease mean? cease the aggression or cease other religion? And if you look at the thing Muhammad did, he clearly violated his own words.

Allah says the Qur'an is a criterion over previous Scriptures

Muhammad said God said that. You have to resolve the conflicts first, and if Quran conflicts with itself, or if Muhammad conflicts with Quran, all are signs of man.

Let's all pray to God that we can see clearly.

 

[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

I don't want to speak about current affairs, I only tell you: look at murder rate by country on wikipedia (the top 10 are Christian countries), look at the rape rate: (Muslim countries are at the bottom), regardless countries in war, you also look at the Muslim countries in peace: (Emirates, Morocco, Indonesia, etc.), look at also violent Christian countries or in war: (Ukraine, Colombia, Mexico...), look at the full-of-blood Christian countries' history. Look at the whole picture.

The almost all of the Christian countries are not really Christian any more if you have noticed. The Murder/rape is not because those people are religious, it is because those are not religious people any more.

When I was an atheist, the #1 thing I noticed about Christians who actively approached me is their love. And if you look at the Muslims, almost the first thing you heard of is how they punished the non-Muslims or other Muslims. There was just a recent story about how 12 non-Muslims was pushed over board by Muslims.

The Qur'an is the evidence, by denifition, the word “ayah” (verse), means “evidence/sign”

You can't just use the book as evidence, you have to study the book first.

They fight first, you defend yourself, If they cease fighting, you cease, because:
2:190 “fight those who fight you but do not transgress”
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in the religion...
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

You do notice that Muhammad and most of his successors are not following it right?

Allah revealed the Qur'an, Muhammad is a Messenger. No contradiction in the Qur'an, and no conflict between Muhammad and the Qur'an, what you don't know is that only the Qur'an was preserved, among any other information. If any other information contradicts the Qur'an, the Qur'an is right, other information is wrong. If someone says “Muhammad said ...” and contradicts the Qur'an, then it might not be Muhammad's sayings. The Bible is full of contradictions, did you read my post #34?

I already answered your post, did you read my answer? And it is clear that Quran contradicted itself (or the actions of Muhammad), and nowadays Muslims started to claim Bible is corrupted after they noticed the differences, a clear divergence from Muhammad.

Jesus said "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'", that is a clear commandment from God, the new commandment that summarized all OT. Anything that not fit it after Jesus is not of God.

 

[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

It is not practical or realistic.

If your neighbor was to go to hell, Would you love him?

You have to, as only God knows if someone can be saved, don't you agree?

That is why Jesus has commanded that we should pray for our enemies.

The Gospel, with all the persecution from the start, all the translation, keep the message very straight. And it is the message of Love, how God loved us and how we should love others in the spirit of God.

 

[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

Satan is Christianity's enemy, would you pray for Satan or would you love Satan?

Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

The Bible teaches us that we can't judge others by the looks, only God knows their heart and where they go.

Look how consistent Christianity is, it is a message of love, even we can't fully follow it due to our flaws, it is a message of love, they we shall love each other. The Bible teaches not to revenge, but to forgive as how God forgive us, and when we do that, the kingdom of heaven is among us.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
(Matt 4:17)

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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[steve_bakr]

Here is the verse:
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

There is a talk told in Quran about Jesus and God, where Jesus is asking for a table of food, and the it switch to a warning from Quran that one day God will question if Jesus ever told people that Jesus told people to worship God/Jesus and Mary as deities.

And here is another verses:
They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

So in the above verse, Muhammad is clearly making sure we can all see that Messiah and Mary are just humans, he will only make such references if he think the trinity is God/Jesus/Mary, or Mary is the other God.

There was most probably a Christian sect in Arabia that deified Mary. There are Christians in the world today who do the same. You may be unaware of the great variety of Christian sects in the 7th century. It is highly unlikely that this perception was originated by Muhammad out of thin air without being exposed to such a sect.

 

[steve_bakr]

The almost all of the Christian countries are not really Christian any more if you have noticed. The Murder/rape is not because those people are religious, it is because those are not religious people any more.

When I was an atheist, the #1 thing I noticed about Christians who actively approached me is their love. And if you look at the Muslims, almost the first thing you heard of is how they punished the non-Muslims or other Muslims. There was just a recent story about how 12 non-Muslims was pushed over board by Muslims.

You can't just use the book as evidence, you have to study the book first.

You do notice that Muhammad and most of his successors are not following it right?

I already answered your post, did you read my answer? And it is clear that Quran contradicted itself (or the actions of Muhammad), and nowadays Muslims started to claim Bible is corrupted after they noticed the differences, a clear divergence from Muhammad.

Jesus said "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'", that is a clear commandment from God, the new commandment that summarized all OT. Anything that not fit it after Jesus is not of God.

There are stories of Muslims saving Christian lives. One Muslim hero of the Crusades saved 15,000 Christians. It is not permitted in Islam to kill anyone for being a Christian.

Any hadith which potrays Muhammad at variance with the Quran is a fabrication. The Quran takes precedence over ahadith because it is a direct revelation and ahadith are not.

So, why not be fair in your portrayal of Islam. Fairness is a Christian principle.

I do admit that I oppose the practice of some Muslims portraying the Bible as corrupt. They may think this helps Islam, but it does not do this at all.

 

[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

I tell you in advance that if you say “yes”, you are satanic, and you are opposing God.
If you say “no”, you are not following the command "love your enemies".

I already said, Satan is not human, the law only apply to humans (i.e. your human enemies). Jesus is telling us how to live our lives, how to deal with fellow human beings.

Jesus also said your old self has to die in order for us to go to heaven, that old self is the part of us that belong to the world, belong to Satan.

 

[dcalling]

I have a few questions more, did he say “love others” or “hate others”?

John 13:34 Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters – yes, even his own life – he cannot be my disciple.

It is very clear what this means, especially the part about HIS OWN LIFE!! It is the worldly things that they have to hate, the part about your own self has to die and be reborn.

Did he come to bring peace or not?

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you...
Luke 12:49 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Did he want you to have a sword or not?

Matthew 10:34 … I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 22:36 … if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Matthew 26:52 … for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

It is clear the sword is not a real sword (Jesus stopped any sword action during his arrest), If you read a bit down, you know it is a sword that cuts between good and evil.

Can you call “fool”?

Matthew 5:22 … but anyone who says, “you fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell
Matthew 23:17 You blind fools!...
Matthew 23:19 (KJV) Ye fools and blind...

Can you judge others?

Matthew 26:24 … it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

The people who call others fool will be in danger of the fire of hell, not God or the word of God Same as Matt 26:24, it is talking about the one who will be against Jesus.

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

You are telling contradictions, "a sword is no a sword"? What language is that?
You say you have to hate the part about his own self, so you have to hate "him", you're confirming it.
From another perspective, when you love your enemies, what do you love of them?

The sword Jesus mentioned is not a physical sword, it is the sword that cuts the bad part out of youself.

When you love your enemies, you love them as you want to save them from sin, because we are all sinners and God saved us, it is our job to let them know what they have done wrong (i.e. murder, steal).

It is very clear from the scripture you quoted, that we should not love the world, but we should love the people, let them know the truth, try our best to put them on the right path. It is very clear that God commanded us not to give up even the worst of the criminals as only God can judge their hearts, and that if we don't forgive them, God will not forgive us.

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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