Question to Polytheists/Neopagans: Which gods exist?

[awitch]

So when you do pick a deity its more from the point of view of 'working with and appreciating' rather than 'worship and don't break my rules'

Exactly.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks for this post, very interesting, and this approach to having a spiritual component in our lives sounds a lot more fulfilling than adhering to rules because the alternative is eternal punishment. It seems to give you a lot of freedom and control over your own spirituality.

Rules tend to get in the way of having fun, don't they?

 

[RoseCrystal]

Rules tend to get in the way of having fun, don't they?

Rules that depend on the God you claim made them existing, and he inspired people to write his instructions down in a book, that many different sects of christianity and Judaism don't agree on the interpretation of - it's seeming a bit of a stretch to me lately.

And most of the rules that matter are just law or human decency anyway. Don't kill (unless your child doesn't behave then, by all means, take him to the edge of town and kill them, its in gods book after all so it must be acceptable), don't steal etc, don't cheat on your wife or you'll do badly in the divorce payout. Maybe I don't need a religion and a god to be afraid of to not be a jerk.

 

[awitch]

Rules tend to get in the way of having fun, don't they?

No one is saying we don't have or shouldn't have rules.
They just don't have to come from gods because we're more than capable of figuring out it's generally wrong to lie, steal, cheat, or kill on our own. And some religions have rules that are outrageously idiotic.

 

[RoseCrystal]

@AV1611VET have you ever considered that your God likes to keep people 'in the dark'?

Don't eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge - you'll get a clue
Better stop them from building that tower - they will be able to accomplish anything if I don't
Don't speak to the dead - they might tell you something useful
Don't use horescopes or tarot cards or yoga or anything eastern - might connect to your own spirituality
Don't let them live longer than 120 years - less time to learn anything

I'm sensing a theme!

 

[AV1611VET]

They just don't have to come from gods because we're more than capable of figuring out it's generally wrong to lie, steal, cheat, or kill on our own. And some religions have rules that are outrageously idiotic.

If they're both the same, then please explain this statement:

It seems to give you a lot of freedom and control over your own spirituality.

It's like saying, "I don't need traffic laws. I know not to drive like an idiot. And it seems to give me more freedom and control over my own choices on the highway."

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sensing a theme!

Me too:

God knows us better than we know ourselves.

If God didn't exist, and man was left to run on autopilot, the Jews would be wiped off the face of the earth by those who would have justified it to the rest of mankind.

Didn't Hitler justify his actions to the satisfaction of most of those who were on the outside looking in?

As the confessional prose says:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[AV1611VET]

Rules that depend on the God you claim made them existing, and he inspired people to write his instructions down in a book, that many different sects of christianity and Judaism don't agree on the interpretation of -

Those would be the ones.

How many people do you see break the law every ... single ... day?

Cruising through STOP signs and justifying it by calling it a "rolling stop"; passing you on the highway, while you're driving the speed limit; scams; fights; etc and so on.

 

[ChetSinger]

I'm curious about how polytheists and neopagans determine which gods exist. Additionally, which historically identified gods from different cultures are the same entity worshiped under different names?

To clarify with an example, for those who adhere to the Hellenic pantheon, do all the gods of the classical Greek myths exist? Are those that exist the same entities as similar gods of other cultures (e.g., Zeus = Jupiter = Ahura Mazda, etc.)? How is this determined?

What does it mean for gods to exist?

Would you like a Biblical response? While I don't know which ones actually exist by name, there were originally 70 of them who did and who interacted with mankind. They are the ones described in these verses:

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. - Deuteronomy 32:8-9​

God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?" - Psalms 82:1​

The first verse describes the dispersion at Babel when God divided mankind into the original 70 nations (they're listed in Genesis 10). At that time he also disinherited the nations and inserted a layer of "middle management" between himself and us, with one "son of God" per nation. Each one of them was given a geographical territory and the people who lived upon it. He then created his own personal nation, called Israel, through the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The second verse describes how those gods governed us poorly, and the entire psalm is an account of God reading them the riot act. He stripped them of their immortality and prophesied that he himself would again, one day, inherit all of the nations.

That prophecy came true 2,000 years ago at the resurrection of Jesus:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."​

Those 70 sons of God, stripped of their authority over us, remain alive and active and are now humanities' enemies. They are the "principalities" spoken of by Paul:

For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.​

So, did some of the ancient gods exist? The answer is "yes", although I don't know which ones. Are they worthy of worship? The answer is "no". Are they even to be interacted with? The answer is "no", because they have made themselves enemies of the human race.

 

[awitch]

It's like saying, "I don't need traffic laws. I know not to drive like an idiot. And it seems to give me more freedom and control over my own choices on the highway."

No, that's not at all accurate.
First, practicing our religion is not reckless nor does it endanger anyone else.
Second, we're required to follow the laws of the land just like anyone else. Unlike Christians, we can't just say, "Those laws don't apply to me because I'm religious and have sincere beliefs!"

Third, a more accurate analogy would be, "I'm going to drive a blue sedan with a customized license plate and use a GPS to take the back roads. My neighbor is going to drive a green pickup truck with bumper stickers and take a toll road using directions he printed out from mapquest. Meanwhile, the guy across town is going to drive his purple SUV with a custom paintjob down the freeway and navigate with the street signs. And we'll meet up at the same place."

 

[dlamberth]

Rules tend to get in the way of having fun, don't they?

In the spiritual life, Love is the only rule that goes towards making us a more human, Human Being. And an interesting aspect of Love is that it has a funny way of freeing a person of rules. Love makes people crazy with freedom.

 

[Zoness]

This is a very interesting idea. Within this theory, do you think that if, in a hypothetical future, humans colonized other astronomical bodies, gods would come with us? Or perhaps there are already gods abounding in the cosmos away from other material sapient life. I like the idea of lonely gods of interstellar asteroids as the inspiration for modern and future mythology.

Within this theory, can gods be organized into sets based upon their reach and complexity? There are local deities; there are cosmopolitan deities; there are cosmic deities. On an ontological level, are these different types (or "sizes"?) of entity?

Sure I think that is plenty compelling!

I've encountered this idea within attempts at explaining historical Egyptian, Maya, and Nahua theology and cosmology. Wicca's reduction to a single male and female figure is interesting. Does Wicca look at gender and/or sex as a foundational attribute of divinities, or is this more of a way for practitioners to put divinities into relatable categories?

British Traditional Wicca, the tradition of Gerald Gardner, the effective founder of the religion takes the gender polarity fairly seriously. Later Wiccan traditions have chipped away at it and eclectics have a very mixed to negative opinion of it. Many opt for other polarities as its not really a requirement per se, just a useful visualization.

Does this theory tacitly assume pantheism or panpsychism or something similar?

I don't think it assumes it but its fully compatible with both, its essentially the position I hold.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Me too:

God knows us better than we know ourselves.

If God didn't exist, and man was left to run on autopilot, the Jews would be wiped off the face of the earth by those who would have justified it to the rest of mankind.

Didn't Hitler justify his actions to the satisfaction of most of those who were on the outside looking in?

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

God didn't kick Hitler's psychotic butt and save the Jews from the holocaust, man did. The whole world spoke up for the atrocities against the Jews.

We don't need a God to be good people. What about all the deaths by crazy people in Gods name? There's a lady who claims Jesus told her to cut their baby's arms off, so she did it.

And let's not overlook the likes of David Koresh, Westbro Baptist Church, Warren Jeffs, Charles Manson, and many many others, all psychos, all acting and justifying their ridiculous actions on 'what god told them', either through revelation or in the bible.

If God tells you something good it was God, if God tells you to cut the arms off your baby it wasn't God and you're crazy, if God tells you to marry teenage girls that wasn't God. You can't have it both ways.

Seems to me if there was no Abrahamic concept of God there would be a lot less war and death and crazy people arguing over who is worshiping him correctly. People have been killing each other in the name of this Abrahamic God for centuries.

The only thing these groups seem to agree on is he's 'the only really real god that's good and don't dare worship any other god - that's bad and will land you in Hell because he'll put you there - but he loves you'.

"In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him."

― Jethro Tull

 

[awitch]

God didn't kick Hitler's psychotic butt and save the Jews from the holocaust, man did. The whole world spoke up for the atrocities against the Jews.

Well, not really.
A lot of countries looked the other way.
I remember reading about a push to get the Pope to speak up and he declined.
Even the US took in less than the quota of Jews at the time using the defense that German spies might sneak in pretending to be Jews.

But yes, they were liberated eventually by people after fighting a war that consumed the planet.

The only thing these groups seem to agree on is he's 'the only really real god that's good and don't dare worship any other god - that's bad and will land you in Hell because he'll put you there - but he loves you'.

We don't have such restrictions. I can subscribe to my pantheon and learn about other religions, interact with their followers, attend their services, and even actively participate in their practices. And I have.

 

[RoseCrystal]

We don't have such restrictions. I can subscribe to my pantheon and learn about other religions, interact with their followers, attend their services, and even actively participate in their practices. And I have.

That is so cool.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Well, not really.
A lot of countries looked the other way.
I remember reading about a push to get the Pope to speak up and he declined.
Even the US took in less than the quota of Jews at the time using the defense that German spies might sneak in pretending to be Jews.

But yes, they were liberated eventually by people after fighting a war that consumed the planet.

I did read about the Pope being silent on the issue. Not good. Didn't know about the US, that's interesting.

Ok so maybe not the whole world, but enough people to end it, and certainly nothing to do with the Abrahamic God. I may be somewhat bitter towards the Abrahamic religions right now and go on slightly exaggerated tangents lol.

 

[awitch]

That is so cool.

One of my favorite true stories was when I went with a friend to a Jewish service. They went around the room, each person reading a few passages from the Talmud. When it was my turn, I just happened to get to read a line about thanking God "I wasn't like the Pagans". To this day, I imagine a fun version of the Abrahamic god pointing and excitedly telling a few surrounding angels, "Watch this! Watch this! Watch this!"

 

[awitch]

I may be somewhat bitter towards the Abrahamic religions right now and go on slightly exaggerated tangents lol.

You can always message me if you feel like you need to vent.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Those would be the ones.

How many people do you see break the law every ... single ... day?

Cruising through STOP signs and justifying it by calling it a "rolling stop"; passing you on the highway, while you're driving the speed limit; scams; fights; etc and so on.

I'd watch it but I can't see it! it says
"Video unavailable
This video contains content from SME, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."

 

[Noxot]

What does it mean for gods to exist?

I want to give my own answer. Me and the rest of my family exist. I will call it personal Transcendent polytheism, or Elohim. The only permanent and primordial being is divine being. Father already said it, the stars of Heaven are suns. Yeah they're even galaxies. The body of Christ is a bunch of stars, symbolically speaking.

The nature of the logos is that it is divine and human. All Souls exist so that they can have Mutual fulfillment in Union and communion with God. We become capacities/souls so that God can shine through us, increase us and overflow us. The Trinity is the process of God knowing and loving himself infinitely and eternally. God gives birth to God. The infinite mind contains all minds. The Lord of spirits is full of spirits.

Any existence other than such is torments and hell and trash.