Question about Once Saved Always Saved

[MichaelNZ]

I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation? What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

 

[bling]

Eph. 1: 11In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance,

We have been given a birth right that cannot be taken away, BUT:

Heb. 12: 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.


The Heb. Write is telling us not to sell our inheritance (birth right) for nothing or very little.


Gal.6: 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Paul is telling us not to give up doing good and going back to sowing after the flesh, because we can lose our inheritance (eternal life).

It is our gift from God and one of the ways you know something is yours is by the fact you can give it up or sell it. If you cannot give something up or sell it is it really your possession?

God does not take our free will away. We do not continue to do good stuff (cease the opportunities before us) because we are trying to get something or even keep it, because no one can or will take it away from us, but if we do stop sowing after the Spirit we can lose interest in God’s Love seeking a the perceived pleasures of a selfish love. If Godly type Love has no value to us we coulf give it up.

 

[heymikey80]

It's a possible, but an unstable, condition.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:9-11

Some people focus on the fact that you can't be an heir and be defiantly unrighteous. And others focus on the fact that some were like that in Corinth, but did engage in such practices.

Someone with change from the heart will change from the heart in their actions. The progress of that change is not instant, nor individualistic; the progress of that change is redemptive. Therefore a person will not always be moved by the Spirit of God to an instant or full stop. There are other redemptive concerns involved, and God alone knows what they are.

 

[hope_is_last_to_die]

salvation is only found in Christ, so while one remains in Christ they are saved. See Gal chp 5 to see that some people were severed from Christ because they made the choice to turn away from Him to the law in order to try and earn there salvation. this issue comes down to whether one believes God has given us ability to choose to accept or reject Christ.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

Just so you know, I generally consider Anglicans my brothers and sisters in Christ. I would make a distinction between OSAS (or Eternal Security) and EA, as EA is confirmation or assurance of OSAS. The distinction may be slight but I will explain...

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation?

No, however, if they are saved, will they not also produce good fruit?

What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

I suppose it's possible, however nothing we know about Hitler would indicate that he would make such a drastic change, even in death, he took his own life, as though his Creator were not the giver and taker of life. We have the story of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, which gives us hope of deathbed conversions, but I would imagine they're not as common as some might have us to believe.

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

No, the young man could be saved, but the evidence produced in his life, fornication is not from faith. It's not an unforgivable sin, but it is sin, and practiced day in out is habitual sin, or as some might say, a lifestyle of sin. The young man may have Eternal Security, but he is throwing away, fore-fitting, giving up his Eternal Assurance, which produces doubt, hurtful to relationship with God, and can easily lead down other paths, but only for a time. So far as evidence for salvation is concerned, it is by no means our justification, but can a good tree produce bad fruit? I fully believe in OSAS, but I also believe if one is saved, and they have been saved for any descent length of time, there will be genuine evidence for their profession of faith. The way I picture it, or the way I've expressed it in the past, we're like dogs on a chain, a long long chain. Sometimes we wander out far on the chain, but God will only allow us (by the length of the chain) to go so far, before He yanks us back to where He wants us to be, which reminds us that we are His, and we have been saved by grace alone, and for His glory alone.

 

[Publius]

I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation?

Where does the Bible say anything about "accepting Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal savior"? How would that not be salvation by works?

What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

Would Kristallnacht be consistent with the fruit the Bible says will follow regeneration?

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

From what you describe, the boy relied on his own efforts and not very good theology.

No matter how sincere the boy may be, none of the things you describe him doing can save him. Once saved always saved does not apply because he was never "once saved". The fornication is only an outward expression of his unregenerate state.

Are you saying that a regenerated state has no sin?

No, I'm saying what Romans and 1 John say, that one who has been born again will not continue to live a lifestyle of willful disobedience.

We all sin, therefore by the logic you seem to be implying no one is saved?

Except that I never said that so it's not the logic I'm using, but the logic you chose to infer from your own misunderstanding of what I said.

The truth is salvation has nothing to do with works.

So then, we're not created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them? Does this mean that our fruits don't matter?

Even Paul said "I continue to do the things which I know shouldn't"

As we all do. But did Paul life a lifestyle of sin? Or was he at war with his sin?

IMO that as long as you believe that Christ is the born again son of God and that you are saved by grace, you ARE saved by grace.

And its certainly your right to believe that, but it isn't Biblical. Even the demons believe that Christ is the Son of God and tremble at His name. Does that mean they're saved?

What good is belief if you don't repent? Where is the fruit of repentence if there is no change in you or evidence of the new nature?

 

[MikaylaTheJesusFreak]

My pastor told me that if you accepted christ even if you stopped believing in him, you would still go to heaven but your not going to have the same place in heaven as a Christian who has believed till the death. (I'm Baptist)

 

[Mightymenoftoday]

Where does the Bible say anything about "accepting Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal savior"? How would that not be salvation by works?



Would Kristallnacht be consistent with the fruit the Bible says will follow regeneration?



From what you describe, the boy relied on his own efforts and not very good theology.

No matter how sincere the boy may be, none of the things you describe him doing can save him. Once saved always saved does not apply because he was never "once saved". The fornication is only an outward expression of his unregenerate state.

Are you saying that a regenerated state has no sin? Because honestly if that is the case there hasn't been a regenerated person on earth since Christ ascended to heaven. We all sin, therefore by the logic you seem to be implying no one is saved?

The truth is salvation has nothing to do with works. Even Paul said "I continue to do the things which I know shouldn't" Christ has given us the gift of salvation. "Whosoever believeth in him" I think, IMO that as long as you believe that Christ is the born again son of God and that you are saved by grace, you ARE saved by grace.

 

[andreha]

I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

There's a lot of heated debate over that for sure. I know the Lord is faithful, and if we continue to rebel against His will, we are going to get disciplined. And as rebellion persists, so will harsher discipline. At some point, most of us, I think, will give in, and obey. However, I am sure that someone who rejects Christ is truly in danger of eternal damnation.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation? What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

That's a tough one. One could argue that if he truly accepted Christ, he would have not been able to follow through with what he did. On the other hand, if he was absolutely convinced in his heart that he did the right thing, he may have received grace. One thing is for sure, if he rejected Christ, even to His face, after death - his bacon would still be crackling in the fire.

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

Methinks the Spirit would impress it upon his heart to marry and conform to God's will. I think for a believer to be lost would ultimately be as hard as tearing your own arm from your body. Not because of our own strength, but because of God's faithfulness in doing whatever possible to get us to return to Him and His ways.

 

[bling]

My pastor told me that if you accepted christ even if you stopped believing in him, you would still go to heaven but your not going to have the same place in heaven as a Christian who has believed till the death. (I'm Baptist)

Where does he get that idea?

 

[heymikey80]

My pastor told me that if you accepted christ even if you stopped believing in him, you would still go to heaven but your not going to have the same place in heaven as a Christian who has believed till the death. (I'm Baptist)

We talk a lot about "acceptance", "belief", "submission", "trust" and so forth, and it's a tough thing to recognize what it is we're talking about.

Believing in Jesus is not a constant. Your faith, the depth of faith, the amount of commitment, it changes, and not always in one direction.

I tend to say it, that once you've been saved through reliance on Jesus, that salvation is a constant. It doesn't matter how your reliance on Jesus changes, because frankly God's in control of your faith if you're saved through it. The Spirit brings faith, we simply have faith the Spirit knows what He's doing.

That said, reward in heaven is readily tied to things you do. There're a number of allusions to this fact in the New Testament (1 Cor 3:10ff). Is it one motivation to good works? Probably, but not the only one.

It's important too that saving faith is accompanied by good works, given time, opportunity, and the work of the Spirit in us. Ep 2:10 comes to mind, as does "work out your salvation ... knowing God is working in you ..."

 

[crimsonleaf]

The whole question of relationships outside of marriage, and the Christian view of sin is much more complex than some would have you believe. Known to me are two people who were atheists and quickly moved into a place together. Five years later and the couple are in a highly stable monogamous relationship, engaged to marry, and both became saved in the last 12 months, the man first, then his fiancee. As a result, they have brought the planned wedding forward by a year.

They have three viable choices: They can continue their relationship (which is deep and loving), having declared their intention to remain together before God; they can stay together in abstinence; they can split until the wedding, dating in the "old fashioned" way.

The final option is financially disasterous, as the female is from another country so can't move home, and the male works from his home and an alternative would be financially impossible. The middle option could again be damaging to the relationship and overburden the couple with guilt, although I recognise it will probably be the favoured option of most on the board. The first option, to continue in a deep, loving, monogamous relationship, declared with God as witness but merely lacking the State's recognition, would, in my view, be a difficult one to speak against without having a firm definition of marriage to start with.

So, having God as a witness - is God enough? Or do we need the State to sanction the arrangement? Does God see this relationship as sinful when He can see into their hearts and know that their love is deep, and to all intents and purposes, permanent? Is fornication the purely the physical act of making love outside of State marriage, or are we exhorted to avoid promiscuity because it is demeaning to the human condition?

I understand the likely chance of a horde of proof texts following this post and calling the couple deliberate sinners, but I do genuinely wonder about God's view of the necessity for State notification (not, you'll note, approval).

 

[Harry3142]

MichaelArchangelos-

The righteousness which God requires of all those who would enter his presence is a righteousness which we cannot earn through the obeying of any set of laws and commandments. Instead, we must accept it as a gift earned by God himself on our behalf and then freely given to all who ask for it:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrtae his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God requires of us is a righteousness that is equal to his own. This means that we cannot duplicate it through our own efforts, but instead must accept it as a gift from God to us. Our unrighteousness is replaced by his righteousness, and we are therefore admitted into his presence through what he himself has already done on our behalf.

And God did not do this as an easy way out for us. He earned our righteousness for us because we were (and still are) totally incapable of living a righteous life to the extent that he demands. So it was either 'write us off' as doomed, or mount a rescue mission to quite literally save us from the consequences of our own weakness. Fortunately for us, he chose to mount a rescue mission.

Insofar as sin is concerned, the 'sliding scale' of relative seriousness is manmade, not divinely inspired. Any sin committed by us would be lethal if our righteousness depended on our own work. Just as there are certain chemicals which are so toxic that even a drop of them added to a water supply would render that water supply as too poisonous to drink, likewise any sin committed, or even a work which is not completed to the 'nth degree, would be enough to condemn us if our salvation depended on our own work

In return for his having saved us we choose to do what we can on behalf of furthering his kingdom. But we do what we can not out of fear of losing our salvation, nor out of a desire to augment that salvation with our own work and thus earn a better place for ourselves in paradise. Instead, we do it out of gratitude for what he has already done. Where we know that he doesn't approve of an action, then we ourselves don't approve of that action. Where we know that he does approve of an action, then we also approve of that action (feeding the hungry is an example of this). But in either situation we do it as our way of saying, "Thank you," to God.

BTW, I've had experience with other denominations which insisted that we must obey certain laws and commandments in order to earn our own salvation or maintain it. In each and every case, the 'laws and commandments' were designed to ensure the total acceptance and obedience of the laity to whatever agenda the heirarchy really was 'fronting' for. In one case that agenda was the accceptance of a radical organization that was using the cross of Christ as a smokescreen to hide their true motives; in another it was simply the desire of the heirarchy of that church to obtain personal power and wealth for themselves.

 

[drstevej]

With salvation comes a new birth and a new relationship. The new birth does not make us sinless. However, when we sin we fall under the discipline of Our Father. In Hebrews 12 He says he chastens all who are his kids. Such chastening may even result in loss of physical life.

So for a child of God to think sin has no consequences is flawed. We do not lose eternal life, but Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to take us to the woodshed. And if a person is not disciplined, then Scripture says he is not the Father's son.

 

[MikaylaTheJesusFreak]

Where does he get that idea?

I really don't know my mom asked him.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

With salvation comes a new birth and a new relationship. The new birth does not make us sinless. However, when we sin we fall under the discipline of Our Father. In Hebrews 12 He says he chastens all who are his kids. Such chastening may even result in loss of physical life.

So for a child of God to think sin has no consequences is flawed. We do not lose eternal life, but Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to take us to the woodshed. And if a person is not disciplined, then Scripture says he is not the Father's son.

True true

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

I really don't know my mom asked him.

I believe that there is one thing that goes unseen a lot: We do not deserve the presence of God at all. If we are to be with him in heaven it is only through the washing away of sins through Christ's blood, and Christ's blood is not less than perfect. If we do what God asks of us, as it is clear in 1 John, we can be sure we are saved. We cannot continue to live in sin, but the point of grace is that we can still always be forgiven. If we walk away and reject God, even after we have recieved that salvation, and reject his grace, we cannot be forgiven. Not because Christ's blood is not powerful enough to wash us clean, but because if we reject the only thing that can save us and forgive us, we cannot be saved or forgiven, that's logic. If we come back to him after that though, he can forgive us just as forgiven as anybody else. Nobody is more forgiven than anyone else. If we are saved we are saved, and that's a wonderful fealing

 

[Hammster]

With salvation comes a new birth and a new relationship. The new birth does not make us sinless. However, when we sin we fall under the discipline of Our Father. In Hebrews 12 He says he chastens all who are his kids. Such chastening may even result in loss of physical life.

So for a child of God to think sin has no consequences is flawed. We do not lose eternal life, but Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to take us to the woodshed. And if a person is not disciplined, then Scripture says he is not the Father's son.

Right. When debating those who believe salvation can be lost, I have noticed one thing. They don't hold to radical/total depravity. So then they think that there is some good man can do. And if man quits doing the right good things then he loses his salvation.

The truth is that man cannot do anything good in the flesh, and if God is merciful and changes him, then it is God doing the good works through him in the first place.

 

[earagun]

I am curious about the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved', AKA 'Eternal Assurance'. I am an Anglican and there are a variety of views in the Anglican Church about salvation.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their personal Saviour, is there really anything they can do that can cause them to lose their salvation? What if Hitler had knelt down and accepted Christ just before drawing up the orders for Kristallnacht?

Say a young man is exposed to the Gospel and he decides to receive Christ as his personal Saviour. He prays with real, true faith and asks Christ to come into his life. He starts to attend church and read the Bible every day. However, he is also living with his girlfriend and engaging in sexual relations with her, and he doesn't see anything wrong with that. He continues to live with her and have a sexual relationship, yet he prays daily and trusts in Christ for his salvation. Does the fact that he is committing fornication mean that he is not saved since he has received Christ with faith?

Its much like the doctrine Paul had to deal with in regards to those who were equating that if Jesus died for our sins, the more we sin the greater His feat in covering them would be, (see Romans 3:5-6) the more we are unrighteous the more we make Jesus Righteous for His ability to cover them.............again taking a biblical truth to the farthest edge will always lead to error

 

[Publius]

Right. When debating those who believe salvation can be lost, I have noticed one thing. They don't hold to radical/total depravity. So then they think that there is some good man can do. And if man quits doing the right good things then he loses his salvation.

The truth is that man cannot do anything good in the flesh, and if God is merciful and changes him, then it is God doing the good works through him in the first place.

What it always comes down to is, if you lose your salvation by your bad works, then you keep your salvation by your good works and you end up earning your salvation every day.

I've never spoken to anyone who denies the Biblical doctrine of eternal security that did not eventually have to admit that they believe in salvation by works.