Question about mortal sin.

[Gwendolyn]

Hello, everyone.

This has been bothering me for awhile, because I'm not entirely clear on it. I know that mortal sin consists of the following:

1) Grave matter
2) Committed with full knowledge of the fact that it is wrong
3) Committed with deliberate consent

However - and forgive me if this is a juvenile question, I've only truly "come home" in October, even growing up cradle - does mortal sin extend to the mind? I know Matthew 5:28 states, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (NASB), but does that mean that having lustful thoughts is a mortal sin, and therefore requires you to abstain from the Eucharist? Not necessarily having sexual urges - we are sexual beings, but we must direct them via the virtue of chastity - but having lustful thoughts about an individual enter your mind before putting a stop to them.

I'm a youth ministry leader at my parish and my teens ask this question quite often, and I never know what to tell them! I tend to be harsh, and I would constitute objectifying/fantasising about someone in that way as a more grave sin, but I don't want to say anything that isn't true as far as the Church teaches.

Thanks for your help You're wonderful!

 

[Dream]

Lust is one of the seven deadly sins, but I don't think it is categorized as a grave sin.

The thing is, lusting is not really an action, but more of a thought. When a man commits adultery, it's very easy to identify his sin. But a man having a lustful thought is not that easy to identify. There is a fine line between admiring one's beauty and lusting after them, so it's not always clear if somebody has lusted.

 

[EllenMoran]

having lustful thoughts about an individual enter your mind before putting a stop to them.

My personal understanding (and I may be wrong) is, if it is the situation you describe -- a thought popping into one's head and then being banished straightaway -- that one would not need to refrain from Communion; but, if it is a situation where the person dwells on those thoughts, it would be prudent to go to Confession first before receiving.

 

[marciadietrich]

Lust is listed as grave on every list I've ever seen... but I would say the right attitude is to know that it is a sin that precedes the overt sin of adultery.

I don't think the line is too thin between noticing beauty and lust. Lust is going to include sexual fantasizing and objectifying the person in a purposeful way because it will include consent of will and knowing what you are doing. Not just a flash of feeling reaction (an involuntary reaction that you can set aside) or thinking someone is nice looking or attractive. It might not be AS clear as adultery, but it isn't so close to admiration of beauty that you can't tell the difference.

 

[Dream]

Lust is listed as grave on every list I've ever seen... but I would say the right attitude is to know that it is a sin that precedes the overt sin of adultery.

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

It doesn't say it's a grave sin...

 

[Asimis]

I would say that acting on Lust is a grave sin but having lustful thoughts or feelings is a venial sin.

 

[Carrye]

My personal understanding (and I may be wrong) is, if it is the situation you describe -- a thought popping into one's head and then being banished straightaway -- that one would not need to refrain from Communion; but, if it is a situation where the person dwells on those thoughts, it would be prudent to go to Confession first before receiving.

This is my understanding as well. The Confessional variety would include not only dwelling on them, but relishing them. They're something that are welcome in your mind.

This is actually something I learned rather profoundly in my last confession - my priest had some great insight about sinful thoughts. For me, because of my personality, sins rarely manifest themselves in actions. Because I'm such a "heady" person, it's almost like a whole reality takes place inside my head. He reminded me of what I said above. The thoughts themselves are not sinful, but it's what you do with those thoughts that determine whether or not sin is a result.

 

[Gwendolyn]

We had a night on sexual morality and it was clear that when they were asking questions, this was about lusting - sexually fantasising about an individual. The way they asked was, "What if you just think about having sex with your boyfriend? Is that a mortal sin?" ("Think" as in fantasise, not consider. )

I told them that it is an offense against chastity to indulge the thoughts, to build on them, and then allowing them to lead you into acting on them would, of course, be a mortal sin. Then the next question was, "So, if we can't receive Communion when we are in mortal sin, does that mean that if we've thought [fantasised] about having sex, even if we knew it was wrong and stopped the thought before it got out of hand, we have to go to confession first?"

I'm glad the teens feel comfortable enough to ask questions, but I just don't know what to say because I'm not even clear on the distinction!

 

[Gwendolyn]

This is actually something I learned rather profoundly in my last confession - my priest had some great insight about sinful thoughts. For me, because of my personality, sins rarely manifest themselves in actions. Because I'm such a "heady" person, it's almost like a whole reality takes place inside my head. He reminded me of what I said above. The thoughts themselves are not sinful, but it's what you do with those thoughts that determine whether or not sin is a result.

Ahh, now there is something that I can understand, because I'm very similar to you. Relishing in the thoughts... welcoming them, regardless of the fact that you know they are wrong... that's when I would say go to confession before you receive...

 

[Skripper]

Hello, everyone.

This has been bothering me for awhile, because I'm not entirely clear on it. I know that mortal sin consists of the following:

1) Grave matter
2) Committed with full knowledge of the fact that it is wrong
3) Committed with deliberate consent

However - and forgive me if this is a juvenile question, I've only truly "come home" in October, even growing up cradle - does mortal sin extend to the mind? I know Matthew 5:28 states, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (NASB), but does that mean that having lustful thoughts is a mortal sin, and therefore requires you to abstain from the Eucharist? Not necessarily having sexual urges - we are sexual beings, but we must direct them via the virtue of chastity - but having lustful thoughts about an individual enter your mind before putting a stop to them.

I'm a youth ministry leader at my parish and my teens ask this question quite often, and I never know what to tell them! I tend to be harsh, and I would constitute objectifying/fantasising about someone in that way as a more grave sin, but I don't want to say anything that isn't true as far as the Church teaches.

Thanks for your help You're wonderful!

Boy, does the Church ever need more youth ministry leaders like you! I can get sort of cynical at times, but I believe we need a lot more of this sort of prudent, cautious approach when imparting the Faith, whether to youth or adults. I think too many in positions of teaching in the Church don't give this a second thought, don't struggle with this much at all, and instead simply opt to pass on their own "version" of things . . . right or wrong. God bless you in your efforts.

 

[Carrye]

but I just don't know what to say because I'm not even clear on the distinction!

I should say too that having those thoughts are somewhat a part of our fallen human nature. However choosing not to act on them speak of personal piety (which is cultivated) and God-given grace (often resulting from Confession).

 

[Dream]

Alright, I did some reaserch. Here's what I found:

Taken from EWTN Q&A:

If an attractive woman happens past you and for a moment you appreciate her natural beauty, that is not a mortal sin. And even if an impure thought may race across your mind without your intending it, that is not a mortal sin. But if you make an act of the will and carry it out to lust after this person, creating images in your mind assisted by the movement of your eyes, you have committed the mortal sin of lust. This sin is avoidable, for it is a conscious act of the will to seize upon the object of the eyes and hold on to it and misuse it in the imagination. In such a case, you should immediately make an act of contrition and be resolved to avoid this sin; you should refrain from Holy Communion until you have the opportunity to go to Confession. But again, distinguish between what might be a fleeting thought or something observed, and a deliberate use of your imagination in a pornographic and lustful manner. This is important, especially in a time when we are bombarded with such images, making us more vulnerable and susceptible than in centuries past. Do not be discourage, but rather be of courage and seek purity of heart, which is more readily achieved with grace and control of the eyes than you might think. Welcome to the Catholic Church,

Father Echert


And of course, we can't forget our good friend Thomas Aquinas: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/315303.htm

 

[marciadietrich]

The language on "Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes." Is nearly the same as the reason given that masturbation (next CCC paragraph is disordered) ... and the cross referece from 2351 is to 2528 which restates those who lust have already committed adultery in their heart.

It is a grave matter, which given full knowledge and consent can be a mortal sin (not saying it usually or always is, but can be ... if it is not grave matter it generally could not be mortal.)

Listed as serious (grave matter) and not venial here:
http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/examination.html

and again here:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3635

 

[marciadietrich]

sorry DT ... didn't see the last post you made quoting from EWTN, which says lust is the willful playing out in the mind and not just the flash of feeling as I and others indicated.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Yay! Thank you, everyone I am so glad that you've kindly responded so quickly. I have learned so much about my faith and about other faiths since I have begun posting here, and I am quite thankful to have such friendly and knowledgeable people who are willing to help.

 

[Dream]

The language on "Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes." Is nearly the same as the reason given that masturbation (next CCC paragraph is disordered) ... and the cross referece from 2351 is to 2528 which restates those who lust have already committed adultery in their heart.

Except the Catechism specifically states masturbation as a grave sin:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

 

[marciadietrich]

Except the Catechism specifically states masturbation as a grave sin:

Hi DT,

Just because it doesn't say it outright doesn't mean that isn't the case, it is listed there for a reason. Coveting your neighbor's wife (lust - a capital sin) is the 9th commandment precursor for the 6th commandment dont' commit adultery action. Just as coveting goods (envy -capital sin) is the 10th commandment precursor for the 7th commandment to not steal action. Grave matter is determined by violating the Ten Commandments:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger

The Ninth Commandment is to not covet your neighbors wife. Which is lusting and commiting adultery in your heart. Which is why it is listed there in 2528 "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart." (Mt 5:28) is under the 9th commandment section of the CCC. It is always listed as a serious or grave sin. Lust is not as grave as adultery, but it is still grave. It is violation of the 9th commandment, which is what leads to the greater gravity sin of adultery or the 6th commandment.

Have you found anything, outside of the lack of the word in one paragraph of the CCC, that says lust is not serious sin and potentially mortal if done with consent of will and full knowledge?