Predestination

[graciesings]

What is your stance on predestination?

Any teens here willing to discuss it?

 

[J0SHUA]

I believe God has decreed all things that come to pass.

Isaiah 14:24:
"The Lord of hosts has sworn:

'As I have planned,
so shall it be,
and as I have purposed,
so shall it stand,"

 

[graciesings]

^Great verse.

Ephesians 2:8-10 reads

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This clearly shows that we can not save ourselves, or do good on our own... God prepares our good works.

However, Isaiah 53:6 reads:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way.

The prophet Isaiah says that WE have gone astray and turned to sin, making it clear that we choose to sin. He doesn't say that God has turned us to sin: No, we have turned away from God.

God chooses good works for some of us to do, but I believe he allows/plans for us to choose our own evil.

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Forewarning: Joshua is going to dislike my distracting underlines and bolded print.
Okay, Predestination: Lets talk Romans 9:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24)



I have made the argument before, that this doesn't refer to ALL of Mankind, but rather the Israelites.

Romans 9 goes on to say " 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;

AND

Romans 10:3 American Standard Version (ASV)

3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Subject THEMSELVES also shows me that they have some say. It was THEIR free will.
______________

Now, God IS free to have mercy on WHOMEVER he chooses because he is God afterall..

We could say that Through the Israelis Unfaithfulness to God, The Gentiles are being drawn in.

"Have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! " (Romans 11:11-12)

Paul declares in verse 23, "And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again."

So, even AFTER Israel has turned away from GOD... God still gives them a chance.

"For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" (verses 32-33).

So, We can say that the Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction were ISREAL who was UNBELIEVING, and YET, Because God is rich in mercy and in LOVE They can be "Grafted in" If they change their ways. So, Romans 9 doesn't speak of predestining people to hell.

Some of these ideas (which I agree with, but am too ignorant of to know about) were taken from : Predestination: Does God Choose Your Fate, or Does He Let You Choose It? | Grace Communion International

And thats the article I'm going to continue using because that guy is clearly smarter than me on this subject.

 

[ghag17]

i stand a little bit in the middle, though i lean more to free will. the way i see it, a relationship with God is like a marriage, and in order for any marriage to work, both spouses have to choose to love each other.
of course, whether free will or predestination, i don't think salvation is dependent on which one you believe, so i focus more on other issues.

 

[J0SHUA]

However, Isaiah 53:6 reads:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way.

The prophet Isaiah says that WE have gone astray and turned to sin, making it clear that we choose to sin. He doesn't say that God has turned us to sin: No, we have turned away from God.

God chooses good works for some of us to do, but I believe he allows/plans for us to choose our own evil.

I agree. We do choose to sin. It is our sinful nature that turns us to sin, not God.

I have made the argument before, that this doesn't refer to ALL of Mankind, but rather the Israelites.

If this is true, and God does not elect all who are saved to salvation, how is that consistent with the rest of Scripture referring to believers as God's elect and chosen ones?

1 Thessalonians 1:4: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,"
1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
2 Timothy 1:9: "Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"

3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Subject THEMSELVES also shows me that they have some say. It was THEIR free will.

Well yes, we must submit ourselves to God. We can make choices. However, we cannot submit ourselves to God unless He draws us. God makes the first move in salvation, not the creature. God saves us, then we submit to Him.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Now, God IS free to have mercy on WHOMEVER he chooses because he is God afterall..

God can indeed have mercy on whomever He chooses; but if He has the power to do that, why doesn't He save everyone? In the Arminian soteriology, doesn't the almighty, all-powerful God try to save everyone, but fail? Why does God fail when He can have mercy on whomever He chooses?

 

[RileyG]

God writes the book, but we still have free will to follow him or not.

One example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was going to be betrayed by him, and he stated it would be better if he "was never born". However, he didn't trust in God's mercy and eventually led to his suicide. He could have repented and be forgiven, but instead he went into despair.

 

[siralex172]

I think God knows everything about us and he knows what we will be doing in the future (our plan) but even God has kept himself from owning free-will. Meaning our free-will is entirely our own being, God doesn't own our free-will because its free . Sure we are influenced and God controls influence but he doesn't control our self-expression.

 

[RAnonUS19B]

I stand about in the middle ofc God planned everyones future but people still have free will to follow the plan or not.

 

[J. Elias]

"I have made the argument before, that this doesn't refer to ALL of Mankind, but rather the Israelites."

If this is true, and God does not elect all who are saved to salvation, how is that consistent with the rest of Scripture referring to believers as God's elect and chosen ones?

1 Thessalonians 1:4: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,"
1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
2 Timothy 1:9: "Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"

Bit of an old thread, but chiming in here, I would say that the passage in Romans 9 indeed is referring to Israel, and the famous "potter analogy" is referring to God utilizing the covenant of Israel to bring salvation to the Gentiles.

As for how the Gentiles are then called the elect if Israel is called the elect, simply the knowledge that we are "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:11-31) would resolve this issue.

Personally, I find Molinism to be the best reconciliation of the seemingly contradicting doctrines of free will and divine election.