Prayers for the dead

[Orthodoxjay1]

So I am starting to see that Prayers for the dead are said a lot in our Greek Church, and wIle it comforting, I don't get it. Why do we say them? I have heard in the Orthodox faith, that once someone passes away, GOD Judgement is final, so what the point of prayers for the dead?

 

[~Anastasia~]

So I am starting to see that Prayers for the dead are said a lot in our Greek Church, and wIle it comforting, I don't get it. Why do we say them? I have heard in the Orthodox faith, that once someone passes away, GOD Judgement is final, so what the point of prayers for the dead?

God is not limited by time ... who is to say your prayer now cannot be answered before the person has died?

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

God is not limited by time ... who is to say your prayer now cannot be answered before the person has died?

Seems I misunderstand the Orthodox view of time, that keeps coming up in discussion on this issue for me.

 

[jckstraw72]

the dead are not yet in their final place, as Christ has not returned and judged the whole world yet. We say they are in the intermediate state -- in a foretaste of heaven and hell, awaiting their bodies. we believe our prayers can relieve the suffering of those who are suffering, and sometimes God might even deign to move someone from hell to heaven by the prayers of the Church. we pray for them, light candles for them, do good deeds in their honor, etc. in a nutshell -- no, their fates are not sealed yet.

P.S. FWIW not all of us would make the argument that we pray for the dead because God is outside of time.

 

[rusmeister]

the dead are not yet in their final place, as Christ has not returned and judged the whole world yet. We say they are in the intermediate state -- in a foretaste of heaven and hell, awaiting their bodies. we believe our prayers can relieve the suffering of those who are suffering, and sometimes God might even deign to move someone from hell to heaven by the prayers of the Church. we pray for them, light candles for them, do good deeds in their honor, etc. in a nutshell -- no, their fates are not sealed yet.

P.S. FWIW not all of us would make the argument that we pray for the dead because God is outside of time.

Agreed.
I'll add my private thought that, if we don't know the fate of someone or something, God could act (in what is the past to us), using our prayer as additional weight where there is no violation of free wills, etc., if only because He WANTS us to pray.

That obviously doesn't generally fly where we know a thing to have happened (or not happened) and pray for a reversal of a past action. (Unless our prayers, through His grace, are granted the power to raise the dead or stop the sun in the sky. I'm skeptical about that as something that is liable to happen often, though.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Seems I misunderstand the Orthodox view of time, that keeps coming up in discussion on this issue for me.

Forgive me. I don't disagree at all with what Jckstraw posted - it is more in line with what my priest said. And I know more could be said. That is my error. I wasn't wanting to have to defend. But it was really wrong of me to post without at least saying that wasn't a full answer (though it is AN answer, but neither complete nor the best one).

I hope you'll all forgive me. There's a lesson for me in there, and I hope that I may learn it.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. (At least it's a good reminder of that.)

 

[All4Christ]

Forgive me. I don't disagree at all with what Jckstraw posted - it is more in line with what my priest said. And I know more could be said. That is my error. I wasn't wanting to have to defend. But it was really wrong of me to post without at least saying that wasn't a full answer (though it is AN answer, but neither complete nor the best one).

I hope you'll all forgive me. There's a lesson for me in there, and I hope that I may learn it.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. (At least it's a good reminder of that.)

I had a very similar post written [emoji4], but it was late at night - and I know there are a few different reasonings for why we pray for the dead. I for one just read you answer as "a" reason we pray - not the only one. I've heard that school of thought, as well as the teaching @jckstraw mentioned.

@Orthodoxjay1 - another reason we pray for them is out of love. We don't know 100% what our prayers will do, but we do pray out of love for our departed Brethren in Christ and for others. Will God change the fate of someone who is experiencing a foretaste of Hell? Will it ease some sort of suffering? I don't know exactly, but I do know we pray for all in the Body of Christ, including the departed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think if we did try to say exactly what benefit our prayers might be for the dead, and really codified it precisely, we would be doing what we say Rome tends to do (like all the details with which they explain the Body and Blood in the Eucharist).

My favorite answer of all is that we do it out of love. I have learned that connection in asking for prayers from the Saints, in praying for those we love both on earth and reposed. This is where I feel the greatest benefit from it all, and I believe it pleases God when we act out of love for others. And indeed, we ourselves are benefited in that process through actively loving them. I think it all serves to more tightly bond the Body together, and I believe it fulfills both Christ's command and plan when we do so.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the dead are not yet in their final place, as Christ has not returned and judged the whole world yet. We say they are in the intermediate state -- in a foretaste of heaven and hell, awaiting their bodies. we believe our prayers can relieve the suffering of those who are suffering, and sometimes God might even deign to move someone from hell to heaven by the prayers of the Church. we pray for them, light candles for them, do good deeds in their honor, etc. in a nutshell -- no, their fates are not sealed yet.

P.S. FWIW not all of us would make the argument that we pray for the dead because God is outside of time.

indeed, and the prayers during the Liturgy are very powerful for those that have departed. and as for the second point, I would simply add that we can pray for them since God is outside of time, although that is not the primary reason.

plus it's Biblical.

 

[nutroll]

We pray for God's mercy on the departed. Repentance is what we do in this life, so we are not expecting the person to repent after death, or come to faith after death, but for God to have mercy despite their sins and their lacking faith.

If we look to all the times in Scripture where someone pleads with God, it is clear that even when God has decided something, he will take our petitions into consideration. Think of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, how Abraham pleaded with God. While God ultimately destroyed those cities, He was willing to listen to Abraham and agree not to destroy it under certain circumstances. God loves us, and He wants us to love, pray for and ask his mercy for one another. We cannot force God do anything, and we cannot change the life that our loved ones lived, but we can ask God with confidence and boldness to have mercy on their souls.

 

[Petros2015]

I'm not sure of it's origin but I came across this Akathist this morning looking for something for a friend who is trying to make peace with her father who abused her terribly and has since passed. It's definitely worth a read and might answer some of the 'what's the point' question itself.

http://www.orthodox.net/akathists/akathist-for-those-who-have-fallen-asleep.pdf

 

[RaphaCam]

The damned can benefit from our prayers, their torments may be relieved and we can even hope for a personal apocatastasis:

Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance.

(Maccabees II 12:40-42a)

"Walking in the desert one day, I found the skull of a dead man, lying on the ground. As I was moving it with my stick, the skull spoke to me. I said to it, 'Who are you?' The skull replied, 'I was high priest of the idols and of the pagans who dwelt in this place; but you are Macarius, the Spirit-bearer. Whenever you take pity on those who are in torments, and pray for them, they feel a little respite.' The old man said to him, 'What is this alleviation, and what is this torment?' He said to him, 'As far as the sky is removed from the earth, so great is the fire beneath us; we are ourselves standing in the midst of the fire, from the feet up to the head. It is not possible to see anyone face to face, but the face of one is fixed to the back of another. Yet when you pray for us, each of us can see the other’s face a little. Such is our respite.' The old man in tears said, 'Alas the day when that man was born!' He said to the skull, 'Are there punishments which are more painful than this?' The skull said to him, 'There is a more grievous punishment down below us.' The old man said, 'Who are the people down there?' The skull said to him: 'We have received a little mercy since we did not know God, but those who know God and denied Him are down below us.' Then, picking up the skull, the old man buried it.

(St. Macarius the Great; from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers)

And so can the saved, since they can be more and more deified:

The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
but, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

(St. Timothy II 1:16-18)

Furthermore we pray for the blessed ever-memorable and most holy Orthodox patriarchs, for devout kings and rightbelieving queens, for the blessed founders of this holy church and for all our Orthodox fathers, brethren, and sisters departed from this life before us, and who rest in peace here and everywhere.

(Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom; Litany of Fervent Supplication)