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Pope Gelasius and Transubstantiation???

Markie Boy

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First - I am here to discuss, not debate with an Orthodox - so no offense please. Second - Orthodox or Catholic replies only please.

So I came across this:

Pope Gelasius I (AD 492):
"Certainly the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ are a divine thing, through which we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance or nature of bread and wine does not cease to be

It seems Gelasius would not be confirming Transubstantiation. And he was apparently doing a good job refuting heretics, so it's not like he was a modernist liberal.

Would Orthodoxy agree more with the statement by Gelasius or another view?

Thank you
 

Albion

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he would not be affirming transubstantiation if you mean the substance of bread and wine ceases to be.

but we do affirm transubstantiation, just in a different way.
Since this topic comes up on CF frequently, I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate on your statement here.

How, for instance, can we call something TRANSubstantiation if the substance of the elements is not changed into something else...or it is a spiritual change but not a physical change? Or something else?
 
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HTacianas

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First - I am here to discuss, not debate with an Orthodox - so no offense please. Second - Orthodox or Catholic replies only please.

So I came across this:

Pope Gelasius I (AD 492):
"Certainly the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ are a divine thing, through which we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance or nature of bread and wine does not cease to be

It seems Gelasius would not be confirming Transubstantiation. And he was apparently doing a good job refuting heretics, so it's not like he was a modernist liberal.

Would Orthodoxy agree more with the statement by Gelasius or another view?

Thank you

The Orthodox Church would likely neither agree nor disagree with him. The bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ and it ends there.

The Western debate on the nature of the bread and wine before and after simply doesn't matter. It is because it is.

It would be as much to debate how baptism washes away sin. A person prior to baptism, at least in the case of an adult, has sin. Baptism removes sin. There is not much to be gained from debating the difference between the old sinner and the new man.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Since this topic comes up on CF frequently, I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate on your statement here.

How, for instance, can we call something TRANSubstantiation if the substance of the elements is not changed into something else...or it is a spiritual change but not a physical change? Or something else?

well, it is changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, just not at the annihilation of the bread and wine.
 
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Albion

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well, it is changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, just not at the annihilation of the bread and wine.
Thanks.
Sounds to me like the same POV as the Lutheran, then, but I am sure that there is supposed to be a difference (??) (Br,Wine,Bod,Bl--all of them)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks.
Sounds to me like the same POV as the Lutheran, then, but I am sure that there is supposed to be a difference (??) (Br,Wine,Bod,Bl--all of them)

I think that depends on the Lutheran
 
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Markie Boy

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The Orthodox Church would likely neither agree nor disagree with him. The bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ and it ends there.

The Western debate on the nature of the bread and wine before and after simply doesn't matter. It is because it is.

It would be as much to debate how baptism washes away sin. A person prior to baptism, at least in the case of an adult, has sin. Baptism removes sin. There is not much to be gained from debating the difference between the old sinner and the new man.

Totally makes sense. The idea that the RCC says "you have to agree with exactly this way", makes totally no sense - when the only answer really is what you said.

I have no idea why they insist on the details of Transubstantiation - to me it actually weakens their case, and looks prideful and a desire to control.
 
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prodromos

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First - I am here to discuss, not debate with an Orthodox - so no offense please. Second - Orthodox or Catholic replies only please.

So I came across this:

Pope Gelasius I (AD 492):
"Certainly the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ are a divine thing, through which we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance or nature of bread and wine does not cease to be

It seems Gelasius would not be confirming Transubstantiation. And he was apparently doing a good job refuting heretics, so it's not like he was a modernist liberal.

Would Orthodoxy agree more with the statement by Gelasius or another view?

Thank you
I think it would be necessary to see the quote in a fuller context before we can come to any conclusion as to what Pope Gelasius meant. Tiny snippets like that can be easily misconstrued when taken out of context.
 
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Euodius

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Transubstantiation is Aristotelian and can be explained with pancakes.

When you make pancakes you add eggs to a batter and cook the pancakes. Because the accident of the egg no longer exists by the cooking process, the pancake is not substantially egg. Therefore, pancakes are fasting friendly because there is no egg in the pancake.


Pope Gelasius I is certainly not speaking in Aristotelian terms and doesn't necessarily contradict transubstantiation.

One of the errors of the Roman system is dogmatizing the Aristotelian description of the eucharist, when the description really intends to just describe the mystery (the substance changes, but not usually the accident. This is beyond Aristotle.) Since it is required to be described in Aristotelian terms, the Catholic would consider Pope Gelasius' statement atavistic.

Transubstantiation isn't exactly wrong, but mostly irrelevant.
 
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Albion

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Pope Gelasius I is certainly not speaking in Aristotelian terms and doesn't necessarily contradict transubstantiation.
He may not be speaking with Aristotle in mind, but the statement still is not compatible with the doctrine later called transubstantiation.

One of the errors of the Roman system is dogmatizing the Aristotelian description of the eucharist, when the description really intends to just describe the mystery (the substance changes, but not usually the accident. This is beyond Aristotle.)

No, Transubstantiation has Aristotle in mind. It sees the inversion of Aristotle's teaching on substance and accidents as proving the miraculous nature of the Eucharist. Were there no Aristotle, the "magical" nature of Transubstantiation would never have been conceived of.

Remember that Transubstantiation not only posits that the elements are changed in substance but that the accidents remain. It's a miracle BECAUSE that is exactly what Aristotle said couldn't happen.
 
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Euodius

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No, Transubstantiation has Aristotle in mind. It sees the inversion of Aristotle's teaching on substance and accidents as proving the miraculous nature of the Eucharist. Were there no Aristotle, the "magical" nature of Transubstantiation would never have been conceived of.

Literally exactly what I said.
 
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Albion

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Literally exactly what I said.
I don't think so. ;) But perhaps what you meant to convey was in line with what I wrote.

You wrote, for example, that what Gelasius said doesn't necessarily contradict Transubstantiation. If you mean that he was not explicitly reacting to Aristotle's ideas when saying what he did, I could agree. But it appeared that you were saying Gelasius' comment was not in conflict with the POV we call Transubstantiation. That's a different matter.

And in any case, I certainly cannot agree that Transubstantiation is not wrong. However, I mean the Roman doctrine. My understanding is that Orthodox Christians also use the term but have a different, non-mechanical, view of the issue.
 
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Euodius

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I don't think so. ;) But perhaps what you meant to convey was in line with what I wrote.

You wrote, for example, that what Gelasius said doesn't necessarily contradict Transubstantiation. If you mean that he was not explicitly reacting to Aristotle's ideas when saying what he did, I could agree. But it appeared that you were saying Gelasius' comment was not in conflict with the POV we call Transubstantiation. That's a different matter.

And in any case, I certainly cannot agree that Transubstantiation is not wrong. However, I mean the Roman doctrine. My understanding is that Orthodox Christians also use the term but have a different, non-mechanical, view of the issue.

Yes, we are in agreement, but it seems what I said miscommunicated what I was thinking. You are saying everything I meant to convey.

When I say Transubstantiation is not wrong, I mean "not even wrong" - it's just kind of irrelevant. A big problem with Roman Catholicism is taking things that are kind of irrelevant or fringe and making them central - which was what I was trying to point out. Even if their dogma were based on correct details, making the details the central dogma is the problem - but I'm not saying the details are correct. It's a type of inversion.

The same is with their dogma of the immaculate conception. It's details that even if true tradition (although I don't think it is) are basically irrelevant, but raised to be a central dogma. Mary being without stain is acceptable and true tradition, but they dogmatize a specific details which are irrelevant to Mary's stainlessness and which are also questionable.

I cannot be a Roman Catholic because they dogmatize details I don't believe in. However, the tendency to dogmatize these details is a central and core problem. It might be acceptable (not a reason to deny communion) to believe the details the RCC has dogmatized, but they shouldn't be dogma even if true. At the very least, it raises problematic opinion to dogma. Problematic opinions are unavoidable, but they are not even heresy... but if you raise it up it does become heresy.

Another example would be the Marian Apparitions, like Fatima, which even if true they are often made the center of piety and that should not be.

Another example would be their religious artwork which became more and more beautifully detailed, but also more and more earthly or even sensual (instead of heavenly) as a result.

Another example would be their tendency to divide Christ and Mary (Sacred Heart, Sacred Face, Sacred Feet, there is even Sacred Genitalia worship which was popular with French Royalty.) This is very problematic. The heart is a detail of the human, but what is the heart without the rest of the human person? This is a confusion.

The RCC has a tendency to make the lower raised up over the higher - it's a widespread problem that afflicts everything Roman Catholic.
 
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TheLostCoin

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From
"Saint Philaret's Longer Catechism of the Orthodox Church "

315. What is Communion?

Communion is a Sacrament, in which the believer, under the forms of bread and wine, partakes of the very Body and Blood of Christ, to everlasting life.

340. How are we to understand the word transubstantiation?

In the exposition of the faith by the Eastern Patriarchs, it is said that the word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord; for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified, that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord. In like manner John Damascene, treating of the Holy and Immaculate Mysteries of the Lord, writes thus: It is truly that Body, united with Godhead, which had its origin from the Holy Virgin; not as though that Body which ascended came down from heaven, but because the bread and wine themselves are changed into the Body and Blood of God. But if thou seekest after the manner how this is, let it suffice thee to be told that it is by the Holy Ghost; in like manner as, by the same Holy Ghost, the Lord formed flesh to himself, and in himself, from the Mother of God; nor know I aught more than this, that the Word of God is true, powerful, and almighty, but its manner of operation unsearchable. (J. Damasc. Theol. lib. iv. cap. 13, § 7.)
 
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TheLostCoin

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Totally makes sense. The idea that the RCC says "you have to agree with exactly this way", makes totally no sense - when the only answer really is what you said.

I have no idea why they insist on the details of Transubstantiation - to me it actually weakens their case, and looks prideful and a desire to control.

I'm warning you now Markie Boy, tread lightly. Regardless if you become Orthodox or if you go back to Catholicism.

You have a right to criticize the pure academization of Western theology and the rendering of the entire theology into a scientific study, separating theology from monasticism and asceticism.

However, to say that academization has not happened to any degree in Orthodox theology, especially in the West, or to push this Esoteric version of Orthodoxy where any topic of theology or mystery is completely off-topic and forbidden from discussion, is in my opinion, juvenility.

That's a bold statement, but this idea that "We aren't allowed to define theology, we aren't allowed to use formulas, we aren't allowed to try to explain mystery" ridicules and mocks 2000 years of Church Fathers who did exactly that, who are canonized Saints, rather than pop-apologetic Orthodox propagandists who are not Saints. It mocks the first Theologian, Saint John the Apostle, who said "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
 
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Markie Boy

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Yes, we are in agreement, but it seems what I said miscommunicated what I was thinking. You are saying everything I meant to convey.

When I say Transubstantiation is not wrong, I mean "not even wrong" - it's just kind of irrelevant. A big problem with Roman Catholicism is taking things that are kind of irrelevant or fringe and making them central - which was what I was trying to point out. Even if their dogma were based on correct details, making the details the central dogma is the problem - but I'm not saying the details are correct. It's a type of inversion.

The same is with their dogma of the immaculate conception. It's details that even if true tradition (although I don't think it is) are basically irrelevant, but raised to be a central dogma. Mary being without stain is acceptable and true tradition, but they dogmatize a specific details which are irrelevant to Mary's stainlessness and which are also questionable.

I cannot be a Roman Catholic because they dogmatize details I don't believe in. However, the tendency to dogmatize these details is a central and core problem. It might be acceptable (not a reason to deny communion) to believe the details the RCC has dogmatized, but they shouldn't be dogma even if true. At the very least, it raises problematic opinion to dogma. Problematic opinions are unavoidable, but they are not even heresy... but if you raise it up it does become heresy.

Another example would be the Marian Apparitions, like Fatima, which even if true they are often made the center of piety and that should not be.

Another example would be their religious artwork which became more and more beautifully detailed, but also more and more earthly or even sensual (instead of heavenly) as a result.

Another example would be their tendency to divide Christ and Mary (Sacred Heart, Sacred Face, Sacred Feet, there is even Sacred Genitalia worship which was popular with French Royalty.) This is very problematic. The heart is a detail of the human, but what is the heart without the rest of the human person? This is a confusion.

The RCC has a tendency to make the lower raised up over the higher - it's a widespread problem that afflicts everything Roman Catholic.

Thank you - you summed up a lot of what I struggle with. And I'm not trying to disrespect anyone.

The part about the Sacred Heart, Feet, Face, etc. just makes my head hurt a little.

The other one is I hear of consecrating one's self to Mary and Joseph. Why would we consecrate our self - I hear it listed as "Total Consecration to Mary", and now I'm hearing of the same thing to Joseph.

It just leaves me feeling like these things say trying to follow Jesus isn't enough. That's something I'm not comfortable with.
 
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