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POLL: Was Corinthians' Glossolalia the same as the Charismatics'?

Was Corinthians' Glossolalia the same as modern Charismatics'?


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  • Poll closed .

rakovsky

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What I'd like to know is, what's wrong with j

It's Constantine who added Christianity to paganism, as if such a thing were possible. What became called Christianity at that point had little to do with the scriptures and their Christianity. You attributed the loss of God's power in Christianity to that time-frame. I just alluded to the cause and affect relationship between Constantine's religion and the loss of the move of God in those claiming His name while practicing pagan traditions. Of course as people moved further from God, even while calling themselves Christians, God stopped working in those people. As pseudo-Christianity became the law true Christianity became even further persecuted and marginalized, and the conquerors wrote the history books, so we have no record of what God actually did in that time. God's character is such that He moves mightily in those truly seeking Him, but that doesn't mean that there is a written record of God's real works in those times.
The mainstream Christian community rejected Montanism in about 185 AD, which is when the mainstream community was also rejecting tongues and frequent visions. After the Biblical era of 100 AD, we hear next to nothing about tongues happening anymore.

Constantine came another 140-230 years later, in the meantime the Christians who weren't speaking tongues were spreading the faith from a minor Judean movement to a major one across the known world while being persecuted.

Would you agree that the theory that the tongues and visions stopped in 100-185 AD because of Constantine's legalization of Christianity in 330 AD is anachronistic?
 
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The Hammer of Witches

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Tongues as they appear in the Bible was speaking in a language that the speaker did not know through the power of the Holy Spirit. This was a sign to unbelievers as well as a way to communicate the gospel. Also, it appears the gift has ceased according to this verse:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Although there are some arguments that time has not come yet, 1 Corinthians 13:10 states it will last until the arrival of the perfect one. At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

The gift of glossolalia was a sign to the nonbelievers and a way of witnessing to them in their own language so they would understand. It had a clear purpose and could be understood. The Bible further exhorts that if someone is speaking in an unknown tongue, they should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Corinthians 14:4-17 states that if someone is praying and an unknown tongue and can be interpreted, it should be translated so the whole church could be edified. Tongues in the Bible is speaking in another language, not random babbling.

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
 
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jiminpa

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Tongues as they appear in the Bible was speaking in a language that the speaker did not know through the power of the Holy Spirit. This was a sign to unbelievers as well as a way to communicate the gospel. Also, it appears the gift has ceased according to this verse:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Although there are some arguments that time has not come yet, 1 Corinthians 13:10 states it will last until the arrival of the perfect one. At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

The gift of glossolalia was a sign to the nonbelievers and a way of witnessing to them in their own language so they would understand. It had a clear purpose and could be understood. The Bible further exhorts that if someone is speaking in an unknown tongue, they should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Corinthians 14:4-17 states that if someone is praying and an unknown tongue and can be interpreted, it should be translated so the whole church could be edified. Tongues in the Bible is speaking in another language, not random babbling.

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Too bad those verses don't say anything like you claim they do.
 
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Biblicist

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Too bad those verses don't say anything like you claim they do.
Having only just finished reading his post I had come to the same conclusion where his remarks certainly showed the confusion of the humanist mindset of cessationism.

What did amuse me was with how the Hammer of Witches (and I don't know why he wants to be a tool for witches) hinted that he recognised that 1Cor 13:8 does not give any real support for the old and dated notion that this verse is supposed to saying that tongues will cease; even the humanist John McArthur realises that this particular verse does not say this - and he is a chappy whose ministry seems hellbent on undermining both the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Tongues as they appear in the Bible was speaking in a language that the speaker did not know through the power of the Holy Spirit. This was a sign to unbelievers as well as a way to communicate the gospel. Also, it appears the gift has ceased according to this verse:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Although there are some arguments that time has not come yet, 1 Corinthians 13:10 states it will last until the arrival of the perfect one. At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

The gift of glossolalia was a sign to the nonbelievers and a way of witnessing to them in their own language so they would understand. It had a clear purpose and could be understood. The Bible further exhorts that if someone is speaking in an unknown tongue, they should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Corinthians 14:4-17 states that if someone is praying and an unknown tongue and can be interpreted, it should be translated so the whole church could be edified. Tongues in the Bible is speaking in another language, not random babbling.

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Entire argument is defeated by one verse:

1 Corin 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Not all tongues are understood or even inteneded for men.
Case closed.
 
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jiminpa

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The mainstream Christian community rejected Montanism in about 185 AD, which is when the mainstream community was also rejecting tongues and frequent visions. After the Biblical era of 100 AD, we hear next to nothing about tongues happening anymore.

Constantine came another 140-230 years later, in the meantime the Christians who weren't speaking tongues were spreading the faith from a minor Judean movement to a major one across the known world while being persecuted.

Would you agree that the theory that the tongues and visions stopped in 100-185 AD because of Constantine's legalization of Christianity in 330 AD is anachronistic?
Ok, so my understanding of church history is weak. I don't actually care about when "Christianity" departed from the Bible, just that it did, and long ago. So now it appears that Christianity was already polluted when Constantine came along, that or the conquerors wrote the history books to make themselves appear to have existed before they actually did.
 
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rakovsky

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Ok, so my understanding of church history is weak. I don't actually care about when "Christianity" departed from the Bible, just that it did, and long ago. So now it appears that Christianity was already polluted when Constantine came along, that or the conquerors wrote the history books to make themselves appear to have existed before they actually did.
The reason that you should care about whether your claims are factually true or not is because of the implications for the Charismatic movement.

Supposedly one of the main proofs of Christianity's truth is that it grew to take over the Roman empire in the face of 200 years of persecution. In the meantime, 170 years of that growth and persecution was a time when "tongues" and "visions" were practically absent from the mainstream Christian community. That fact severely undermines the proposed explanation by the Charismatic movement for the cessation of "gifts" in the early Church.
 
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jiminpa

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The reason that you should care about whether your claims are factually true or not is because of the implications for the Charismatic movement.

Supposedly one of the main proofs of Christianity's truth is that it grew to take over the Roman empire in the face of 200 years of persecution. In the meantime, 170 years of that growth and persecution was a time when "tongues" and "visions" were practically absent from the mainstream Christian community. That fact severely undermines the proposed explanation by the Charismatic movement for the cessation of "gifts" in the early Church.
The explanation comes from the Bible--unbelief. That's the only reason the Bible gives for God not moving. I don't really need to know anything else. Let God be true and all men liars.
 
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rakovsky

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The explanation comes from the Bible--unbelief.
This is strange. Christian apologists commonly claim that the perseverence of the saints in 40-300 AD under persecution is major evidence for Christianity because it means their belief was sincere.

Now you are saying that the persecuted Christians, who supposedly prove the Bible's truth, were unbelievers based on the Bible.

This is very strange.
 
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jiminpa

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This is strange. Christian apologists commonly claim that the perseverence of the saints in 40-300 AD under persecution is major evidence for Christianity because it means their belief was sincere.

Now you are saying that the persecuted Christians, who supposedly prove the Bible's truth, were unbelievers based on the Bible.

This is very strange.
So, then do you believe that their perseverance supersedes the Bible?
 
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rakovsky

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So, then do you believe that their perseverance supersedes the Bible?
Do you see what I mean about there being a conflict in saying that the godpels' truth is shown by those Christians' perseverance and saying that they were unbelievers suffering for a faith that they didn't believe?
 
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Gideons300

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Here is the question I am trying to get at, but it's hard to word for a simple Yes/No poll: If Corinthians' glossolalia was the same as the modern Charismatics', and Charismatics' glossolalia is psychological in nature, then what does that say about the Corinthians' own glossolalia?


First, we must consider whether the Charismatics have the same experience as the Corinthians, or whether the Corinthians were speaking in national languages.

In other words: Were the Corinthians speaking in foreign national languages, or were both the Charismatics and Corinthians speaking phonetics that are not national languages?

One Orthodox monk writes:


Why some people think they were the same experience:
A) Some propose that the Corinthians were speaking in angels' tongues and that people cannot understand them. In 1 Corinthians 13, we read: “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass.” But this never says what exactly those tongues of angels are. It does not say whether the angels have a different phonetic pattern of speech, as in the Bible the angels' sentences are comprehensible, and secondly it does not say whether the Corinthians were speaking in angels' supposed tongues.

B) Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13-14 that when people speak in tongues "no one understandeth him". If the person was speaking in a national language, then it seems like at least someone, like a traveler from another country would understand him. One theologian said that Corinth had travelers from other countries and so someone should have been able to understand the language if it was a real language.

C) Paul warned that Corinthians should be careful to speak at most two at a time in tongues and to have a translator, because otherwise bystanders would think that they were being "maniacs". This resembles the impression that Charismatics speaking in tongues sometimes makes on critics.
But this does not prove whether the Corinthians were speaking national languages, because people talking at once in national languages could make the same impression.

D) Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that a person speaking in tongues speaks to God because no one understands the person. However, in Acts the kinds of tongues discussed were languages directed by the spirit that foreigners understood and were meant for the foreigners to do so, so 1 Corinthians 14 must be talking about a different kind of method of speech, one that no one understands. Since the prayer is directed to God, it means that God understands the speech. In this case, it means a tongue that no one understands but God, a categorization that excludes foreigners from understanding it.
But the counterargument would be that Paul was just talking about no one at Corinth understanding the tongues.

E) Another argument is that in Acts whenever the apostles spoke in tongues, they were speaking in chaotic phonetics, even at Pentecost, and that God gave foreign bystanders the miraculous ability to understand it. But if that is what is meant by speaking in tongues, then why could not Christian believers at Corinth understand tongues, while at least some bystanders at Pentecost who heard the languages were disbelievers?

F) Razare made this argument to say that it's the same thing:


G) Charismatics pray and feel sincerely and emotionally led to perform their tongues. They ask why they could be led in a mistaken spiritual direction after sincere prayer. They don't think God would allow that spiritual misdirection to happen.
Unfortunately, there are major cases of sincere believers being led in opposite directions on teachings and practices even after sincere prayer. Two examples are (1) the mutually opposing positions on infant baptism among Reformed Protestants and (2) the very opposing positions on the experience during communion meals between Lutherans/Catholics on one hand and the Salvation Army/Quakers on the other, the latter group not even observing ritual meals.

H) Paul said in 1 Cor, I speak in tongues more than any of you, not I speak in more tongues than you. So he did not mean I am educated in more languages than you. He was talking about an inspired practice of some kind.

Why other people think that the Corinthians were speaking in national tongues

A) A few Church fathers said that the Corinthians were speaking national languages. However, those Church fathers lived in a later era a few centuries removed. They were not present when the Corinthians were speaking in tongues. St. John Chrysostom wrote that they were speaking national languages in Corinth, but he said that the phenomenon was obscure for him and had ended by his time.

B) Paul spoke in tongues successfully to spread the gospel to foreigners a few times in Acts. Plus there was the case of Pentecost when speaking in tongues meant national languages. Since Paul never specifies in 1 Corinthians whether the Corinthians were speaking national languages, the default understanding of what language he had in mind could be the same experience that we see narrated in Acts, ie. one of speaking real national languages.

C) Paul further connected his tongues to the Corinthians when he said:
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1 Cor 14)​
Here he is talking about words that are not in his understanding, but as we know from Acts, Paul's tongues were understood to foreigners who spoke languages that he did not understand. So when Paul said that he speaks in tongues in this passage, he was not saying that he has studied foreign tongues and speaks them naturally. But this does not rule out either that he is speaking in national languages unknown to him.

D) Paul instructs the Corinthians to use an interpreter. For there to be an interpreter, it suggests that there was a real national language to interpret.
But Pentecostals also sometimes invite in interpreters, but that doesn't show that what the Pentecostals are interpreting is a real national language. They can just be interpreting the speaker's thoughts or emotions that are expressed in the chaotic phonetics.

E) Paul says that with no interpreter, speaking in tongues makes one sound like a barbarian. Barbarians speak foreign tongues. However, perhaps he minds that talking in chaotic speech patterns makes one sound like an uncultured barbarian, as opposed to a person from a foreign civilized nation.

F) Speaking in tongues was a gift from the spirit to spread the gospel to other nations. So it doesn't make sense why the early Christians at Corinth would be made by the Spirit to speak in phonetics that are not real foreign languages. However, this tension exists in Paul's own statement on tongues in 1 Cor 14: if tongues are for preaching to foreigners like in Acts 2 and in places where Paul uses tongues with foreigners in Acts, then why does he say that "no one understandeth him" in 1 Cor 14, unless he was talking about two kinds of tongues, the Corinthian one being a special prayer one? Maybe when he wrote about "no one understandeth him", he was just talking about no one at Corinth understanding the foreign tongues?
I hope you guys do not think bad of me for what I am going to share here. In reading the answers of posters here, many are posters I have grown to respect greatly. What I will share here will most likely ruffle a few feathers, LOL, Any who know me and what I seem to continually share knows it seems to be my specialty. Ok, here goes.

Back in 1972, after my conversion brought about by a true miracle, I stumbled across The 700 Club on tv. I was raised Baptist and yet this was different. I began to seek what they had, and three month later, at a small country Pentecostal church, I was filled with the Spirit, and spoke in tongues.

As I grew n the Lord, I was privelidged to know Leonard Ravenhill after being introduced to him through listening to the music and sharing of Keith Green. If any here are not familiar with him, look him up on YouTube. You will be blessed. He was on fire for the Lord, and what he shared hit its mark in my heart.

Leonard and David Wilkerson were mentors of Keith, and all three of them greatly influenced my walk with God. I once called Mr. Ravenhill, and because of my endless struggle with porn, I began to questionas doubts about my being filled with the same spirit they received in the book of Acts, He told me this, and it has never left me.

"Can you explain to me how 120 mostly unlearned men, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, literally turn the world upside down in one generation, and yet today, we can have 120 churches in one city claiming the same in filling, and that town not even know they are there?"

So I want to pose to you the same question. Can you offer any feasible explanation that remotely makes sense? To make it more personal, does your walk with the Lord, since being filled with the Spirit, resemble even closely the passin, the love, the dedication, the singleness of eye that our forefathers possessed.

He said one other thing to me that has hit the mark.

"If a man is filled with an evil Spirit, he does evil things. Should we, if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, not lead Holy lives, filled with the fruits of the Spirit's abiding? Ouch.

I have had to examine my own walk, and if I am totally honest, I come up woefully lacking. I share here on the Charismatic board because it is the closest thing I know to what God wants, not because of tongues but because something in us at some point in our lives wanted more of Jesus. So am I charismatic? I haven't a clue.

In my early years, I had hope. Walking into church, almost every hand carried in a well worn, thoroughly written in Bible. Highlighters marked many of the pages. How about you? Does that jog any different memories? And in the service, we were often run all over the Bible, as we were taught about God and the life we were called to live. We were hungry for more, passionate for souls, and when we sinned, deep remorse followed.

Now, fast forward to the present day, which is far closer to the day of the Lord than when we first received the Holy Spirit. As we walk into church, a few carry Bibles, and more often than not, one scripture verse is put on the overhead projector, and we are told a nice moral lesson, and the message of the forgiveness we are blessed with is told.... every single service.

We are discussing here whether our experience is genuine. I contend that we should be seeking why, even with our experience, we have grown lukewarm and content while the entire world marches toward judgment, a final and irreversible one. Our tongues may indeed be genuine. I do not know one way or another. But I do know that we, those who have sought a closer walk with the Lord than most denominations that I am aware of, have lost our way. The only problem is, we do not know it.

We, the children of God, are called to be the salt of the earth, preserving the balance between good and evil till the final days. But we have lost our savor. We have become bland, religious, earthly minded and the fire that once burned in us has become nothing more than a flickering candle.

There is an answer, and the fact that our flame still flickers assures us that God has not given up on us. But we cannot ignore our condition. What is the point of defending our experience if our hearts are far from Him? What good is praying in tongues if our passion for living for Him, and longing to do His will and walk pleasing to Him is far from our hearts? I will tell you.

Nothing.

There is an answer. An amazing, mind blowing one. God is awakening us to the truth of who we are in Him, but the first thing that must happen is acknowledging where we are, how far we have fallen, and break before Him, seeking the answer that eludes us.... how to overcome our self nature and be changed more and more into His image. We need to see ourselves as wretched men, needing everything from our Heavenly Father. Right now, truth be told, we for the most part think we are quite fine.

But here is the hard truth we do not want to admit. Our eye has not been single. Will any dispute that? We have all not walked out our time here on earth as living sacrifices, or even wanted to. Those filled with the Spirit in Acts did. Holiness, zeal, loving one another with a pure heart fervently.... these were the very things that were a direct result of their being filled with the Spirit, We need that. The burning question of the hour is...

DO WE WANT IT MORE THAN OUR NEXT BREATH?

I love you all.

Gideon
 
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jiminpa

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I hope you guys do not think bad of me for what I am going to share here. In reading the answers of posters here, many are posters I have grown to respect greatly. What I will share here will most likely ruffle a few feathers, LOL, Any who know me and what I seem to continually share knows it seems to be my specialty. Ok, here goes.

Back in 1972, after my conversion brought about by a true miracle, I stumbled across The 700 Club on tv. I was raised Baptist and yet this was different. I began to seek what the had, and three month later, at a country Pentecostal church, I was filled with the Spirit, and spoke in tongues.

As I grew n the Lord, I was privelidged to know Leonard Ravenhill after being introduced to him through listening to the music and sharing of Keith Green. If any here are not familiar with him, look him up on YouTube. You will be blessed. He was on fire for the Lord, and what he shared hit its mark in my heart.

Leonard and David Wilkerson were mentors of Keith, and all three of them greatly influenced my walk with God. I once called Mr. Ravenhill, and because of my endless struggle with porn, I began to questionas doubts about my being filled with the same spirit they received in the book of Acts, He told me this, and it has never left me.

"Can you explain to me how 120 mostly unlearned men, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, literally turn the world upside down in one generation, and yet today, we can have 120 churches in one city claiming the same in filling, and that town not even know they are there?"

So I want to pose to you the same question. Can you offer any feasible explanation that remotely makes sense? To make it more personal, does your walk with the Lord, since being filled with the Spirit, resemble even closely the passin, the love, the dedication, the singleness of eye that our forefathers possessed.

He said one other thing to me that has hit the mark.

"If a man is filled with an evil Spirit, he does evil things. Should we, if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, not lead Holy lives, filled with the fruits of the Spirit's abiding? Ouch.

I have had to examine my own walk, and if I am totally honest, I come up woefully lacking. I share here on the Charismatic board because it is the closest thing I know to what God wants, not because of tongues but because something in us at some point in our lives wanted more of Jesus. So am I charismatic? I haven't a clue.

In my early years, I had hope. Walking into church, almost every hand carried in a well worn, thoroughly written in Bible. Highlighters marked many of the pages. How about you? Does that jog any different memories? And in the service, we were often run all over the Bible, as we were taught about God and the life we were called to live. We were hungry for more, passionate for souls, and when we sinned, deep remorse followed.

Now, fast forward to the present day, which is far closer to the day of the Lord than when we first received the Holy Spirit. As we walk into church, a few carry Bibles, and more often than not, one scripture verse is put on the overhead projector, and we are told a nice moral lesson, and the message of the forgiveness we are blessed with is told.... every single service.

We are discussing here whether our experience is genuine. I contend that we should be seeking why, even with our experience, we have grown lukewarm and content while the entire world marches toward judgment, a final and irreversible one. Our tongues may indeed be genuine. I do not know one way or another. But I do know that we, those who have sought a closer walk with the Lord than most denominations that I am aware of, have lost our way. The only problem is, we do not know it.

We, the children of God, are called to be the salt of the earth, preserving the balance between good and evil till the final days. But we have lost our savor. We have become bland, religious, earthly minded and the fire that once burned in us has become nothing more than a flickering candle.

There is an answer, and the fact that our flame still flickers assures us that God has not given up on us. But we cannot ignore our condition. What is the point of defending our experience if our hearts are far from Him? What good is praying in tongues if our passion for living for Him, and longing to do His will and walk pleasing to Him is far from our hearts? I will tell you.

Nothing.

There is an answer. An amazing, mind blowing one. God is awakening us to the truth of who were are in Him, but the first thing that must happen is acknowledging where we are, how far we have fallen, and break before Him. We need to see ourselves as wretched men, needing everything from our Heavenly Father.

Our eye has not been single. Will any disputes that? We have all not walked out our time here on earth as living sacrifices. Those filled with the Spirit in Acts did. Holiness, zeal, loving one another with a pure heart fervently.... these were the very things that were a direct result of their being filled with the Spirit, We need that. The burning question of the hour is...

DO WE WANT IT MORE THAN OUR NEXT BREATH?

I love you all.

Gideon
I don't have time for the reply this deserves at the moment, so I will give the abbreviated version. For me this dispute is not about tongues, but related to your message. Can we tell God's Spirit to take a walk and take His gifts with Him, and somehow not extinguish our love? Here we have a thread attempting to sow unbelief in God's word and promises. I can't let that just go anymore than you can your message of empowering grace.
 
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rakovsky

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I never said that they were unbelievers. I said that unbelief will hinder God's work.

But, you are avoiding the big question. Do you believe that experience supersedes scripture?
Even a bigger question than that is if the scripture's story of Jesus' main miracles is true. For a long time Christians have been saying that we know they are true and not just made up in 90 ad or so because the Christians who brought us these scriptures in ad 90 to ad 300 persevered for their faith despite persecution.
But now you are basically saying No, the early Christians had major unbelief because they weren't showing the nonsense tongues and visions.
Do you understand why there might be a big problem here?
 
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Biblicist

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The mainstream Christian community rejected Montanism in about 185 AD, which is when the mainstream community was also rejecting tongues and frequent visions. After the Biblical era of 100 AD, we hear next to nothing about tongues happening anymore.
It was be difficult to imagine that the Montanist movement was the sole domain of those who allowed the Holy Spirit to speak through them. As for the Montanists themselves, they were probably only a section of the Full Gospel church of the period where their self induced notoriety brought them to the forefront of history.

Constantine came another 140-230 years later, in the meantime the Christians who weren't speaking tongues were spreading the faith from a minor Judean movement to a major one across the known world while being persecuted.

Would you agree that the theory that the tongues and visions stopped in 100-185 AD because of Constantine's legalization of Christianity in 330 AD is anachronistic?
In the time period leading up to where Emperor Constantine established himself as the first pope, we should not be surprised to see the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit being relegated to the sidelines, where the influence of Emperor/pope Constantine unarguably saw the introduction of many pagan practices which flowed through the Dark Ages of Roman (and EO) influences, which only begain to be repealed with the introduction of the Reformation; even then it took decades and a few more centuries before we saw a return to Biblical church life and ministry.
 
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rakovsky

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In the time period leading up to where Emperor Constantine established himself as the first pope, we should not be surprised to see the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit being relegated to the sidelines, .
Why should Christian apologists NOT be surprised by that if one of the main claims of those apologists is that those early pre Constantine Christians' faith is a key proof of the miracle claims in the gospel?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I hope you guys do not think bad of me for what I am going to share here. In reading the answers of posters here, many are posters I have grown to respect greatly. What I will share here will most likely ruffle a few feathers, LOL, Any who know me and what I seem to continually share knows it seems to be my specialty. Ok, here goes.

Back in 1972, after my conversion brought about by a true miracle, I stumbled across The 700 Club on tv. I was raised Baptist and yet this was different. I began to seek what they had, and three month later, at a small country Pentecostal church, I was filled with the Spirit, and spoke in tongues.

As I grew n the Lord, I was privelidged to know Leonard Ravenhill after being introduced to him through listening to the music and sharing of Keith Green. If any here are not familiar with him, look him up on YouTube. You will be blessed. He was on fire for the Lord, and what he shared hit its mark in my heart.

Leonard and David Wilkerson were mentors of Keith, and all three of them greatly influenced my walk with God. I once called Mr. Ravenhill, and because of my endless struggle with porn, I began to questionas doubts about my being filled with the same spirit they received in the book of Acts, He told me this, and it has never left me.

"Can you explain to me how 120 mostly unlearned men, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, literally turn the world upside down in one generation, and yet today, we can have 120 churches in one city claiming the same in filling, and that town not even know they are there?"

So I want to pose to you the same question. Can you offer any feasible explanation that remotely makes sense? To make it more personal, does your walk with the Lord, since being filled with the Spirit, resemble even closely the passin, the love, the dedication, the singleness of eye that our forefathers possessed.

He said one other thing to me that has hit the mark.

"If a man is filled with an evil Spirit, he does evil things. Should we, if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, not lead Holy lives, filled with the fruits of the Spirit's abiding? Ouch.

I have had to examine my own walk, and if I am totally honest, I come up woefully lacking. I share here on the Charismatic board because it is the closest thing I know to what God wants, not because of tongues but because something in us at some point in our lives wanted more of Jesus. So am I charismatic? I haven't a clue.

In my early years, I had hope. Walking into church, almost every hand carried in a well worn, thoroughly written in Bible. Highlighters marked many of the pages. How about you? Does that jog any different memories? And in the service, we were often run all over the Bible, as we were taught about God and the life we were called to live. We were hungry for more, passionate for souls, and when we sinned, deep remorse followed.

Now, fast forward to the present day, which is far closer to the day of the Lord than when we first received the Holy Spirit. As we walk into church, a few carry Bibles, and more often than not, one scripture verse is put on the overhead projector, and we are told a nice moral lesson, and the message of the forgiveness we are blessed with is told.... every single service.

We are discussing here whether our experience is genuine. I contend that we should be seeking why, even with our experience, we have grown lukewarm and content while the entire world marches toward judgment, a final and irreversible one. Our tongues may indeed be genuine. I do not know one way or another. But I do know that we, those who have sought a closer walk with the Lord than most denominations that I am aware of, have lost our way. The only problem is, we do not know it.

We, the children of God, are called to be the salt of the earth, preserving the balance between good and evil till the final days. But we have lost our savor. We have become bland, religious, earthly minded and the fire that once burned in us has become nothing more than a flickering candle.

There is an answer, and the fact that our flame still flickers assures us that God has not given up on us. But we cannot ignore our condition. What is the point of defending our experience if our hearts are far from Him? What good is praying in tongues if our passion for living for Him, and longing to do His will and walk pleasing to Him is far from our hearts? I will tell you.

Nothing.

There is an answer. An amazing, mind blowing one. God is awakening us to the truth of who we are in Him, but the first thing that must happen is acknowledging where we are, how far we have fallen, and break before Him, seeking the answer that eludes us.... how to overcome our self nature and be changed more and more into His image. We need to see ourselves as wretched men, needing everything from our Heavenly Father. Right now, truth be told, we for the most part think we are quite fine.

But here is the hard truth we do not want to admit. Our eye has not been single. Will any dispute that? We have all not walked out our time here on earth as living sacrifices, or even wanted to. Those filled with the Spirit in Acts did. Holiness, zeal, loving one another with a pure heart fervently.... these were the very things that were a direct result of their being filled with the Spirit, We need that. The burning question of the hour is...

DO WE WANT IT MORE THAN OUR NEXT BREATH?

I love you all.

Gideon
specifically, for now >>"Can you explain to me how 120 mostly unlearned men, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, literally turn the world upside down in one generation, and yet today, we can have 120 churches in one city claiming the same in filling, and that town not even know they are there?"

Yes. Almost no one today , even those "claiming" , are telling the truth. Almost no one in or out of church.
And I asked a lot of them. They admit it. They don't even try to deny it.

The price of Truth, of standing up for the Truth,
the price of telling the Truth,
is TOO MUCH for people to pay - THEY DON'T WANT TO. They Refuse. And they admit it.

And that's the LONG answer.

I knew David Wilkerson and Keith Green, as one in the body of Christ. They told the Truth. Corrie ten Boom too.
Hardly anyone else does. Not that I've seen or met or known. The 120 churches in one city don't allow Truth be told. A lot of reasons for that. The first thing I learned as part of God's Calling, after "God is Trustworthy",
is that all men are liars. That was absolutely necessary to learn, in order to believe what God teaches/ God's Word.
 
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The 120 churches in one city don't allow Truth be told. A lot of reasons for that. The first thing I learned as part of God's Calling, after "God is Trustworthy",
is that all men are liars. That was absolutely necessary to learn, in order to believe what God teaches/ God's Word.
So are you maybe saying that as you are a part of those "all men" and as the first thing that you learned was "that all men are liars", was this type of behaviour being exhibited by the "all men" who were a part of your first congregation - if so, it must have been a real doozy? We should also take this a bit further by asking, are the Twelve and Paul also liars as they are also men? As the Psalmist was applying his lament to the world around him, where even the Covenantal people of Israel were themselves unregenerate, then we should probably minimise its application to the people of God who have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Attributed to the wrong person!

specifically, for now >>"Can you explain to me how 120 mostly unlearned men, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, literally turn the world upside down in one generation, and yet today, we can have 120 churches in one city claiming the same in filling, and that town not even know they are there?"
For those who are conversant with the missionary endeavours of the past century, we would all be well aware that the Pentecostal movement (along with the many fine charismatic missionaries), that their record is well known, where even many cessationist missionary specialists will recognise (often begrudgingly) that the Pentecostal movement has shaken up many parts of the world that our Evangelical brethren have often failed to obtain a foothold.

A good example of this has been in South America, where the Roman Catholic denomination has been compelled to embrace their charismatic movement as they are obviously aware that if they stood against this move of God that Romanism would quickly dissappear from this part of the world. Whereas the Evangelical movement has made little inroads over the years, the Pentecostal movement has become a strong and powerful work in these regions - and elsewhere as well.
 
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Biblicist

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Why should Christian apologists NOT be surprised by that if one of the main claims of those apologists is that those early pre Constantine Christians' faith is a key proof of the miracle claims in the gospel?
I'm not all that sure that I am following the thrust of your post.
 
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