Paul's : Doctrine #1

[fhansen]

It's not as though we don't have examples in Scripture of why they did not obtain a right foundational standing.
They were seeking a justification of their own through the works of the law. They ignored the offering provided for sin
and were seeking to approach God with their blemished self-righteous filthy rags. No flesh will be justified in His sight; Rom 3:20
In other words, they were not united with the congregation of faith and as such are referred to as habitual sinners. (Heb 10:25)
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; Heb 5:9-12
____________________________________________________________________
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

And yet, for humanity, the Jews were chosen to, for one thing, demonstrate this very fact: that no amount of law-keeping suffices on its own-and that we'll fail at it regardless. The law, we can all learn, served as a necessary stepping stone towards the new covenant. It served as a tutor showing us what doesn't work, convicting us of the sin that we inevitably participate in as we fail at obeying the law.

 

[keepitsimple144]

And yet, for humanity, the Jews were chosen to, for one thing, demonstrate this very fact:

If you hear My voice and keep My covenant, you will be My own people. Ex 19:5

I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God; Jeremiah 24:7

that no amount of law-keeping suffices on its own-and that we'll fail at it regardless. The law, we can all learn, served as a necessary stepping stone towards the new covenant. It served as a tutor showing us what doesn't work, convicting us of the sin that we inevitably participate in as we fail at obeying the law.

The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:23-29

 

[fhansen]

The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:23-29

Yes, that's the point. God's been teaching us, His world, all along. He gave us the law because man failed to read it in his own heart. But the lesson to be learned is that, apart from God, we cannot obey the law anyway. We must turn to Him in faith, becoming His people. Then He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

 

[keepitsimple144]

Yes, that's the point. God's been teaching us, His world, all along. He gave us the law because man failed to read it in his own heart. But the lesson to be learned is that, apart from God, we cannot obey the law anyway.

Moses gave you the law, Yet none of you keeps the law. John 7:19 For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. Gal 3:21

We must turn to Him in faith, becoming His people. Then He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:13-14

 

[fhansen]

Moses gave you the law, Yet none of you keeps the law. John 7:19 For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. Gal 3:21

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:13-14

The promise of the Spirit is the gift of true righteousness, itself,
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Cor:4-6

As we walk by the Spirit. we overcome the sin that leads to death.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

 

[keepitsimple144]

The promise of the Spirit is the gift of true righteousness, itself,
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Cor:4-6

As we walk by the Spirit. we overcome the sin that leads to death.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2

 

[RandyPNW]

Yes. And another difference between the old and the new is that, as sin is dealt with, man turns away from it and to God, entering a familial relationship with Him that man was absolutely made for and that, itself, defines his justice; alienation from God being the essence or foundation of fallen man's injustice

The differences between the testaments are minor in the sense that it is the *same God* administering both of them. They are only major when viewed in light of how more important it is to have eternal atonement than temporary atonement. Both, however, are legitimate forms of atonement from God.

In both testaments Man is led to turn away from sin to God! In both testaments believers are encouraged to enter into and continue in a familial relationship with God. So I'm not sure what difference you're trying to convey here?

It is thought by many, who views things as Marcion did, that Israel was sort of a "fake people" in the OT, who presented the mere husk of the fruit, whereas the NT Church are the genuine fruit. I cannot agree with this position. There have been fake believers in both Old and New Testaments.

Again, the major difference between Old and New Testaments is not a contrast between Israel and the Church, nor opposing systems of administration. Rather, the main difference is that the initial system of administration was temporary atonement, which was intended to prepare God's People for final, or eternal, atonement.

A leads to B, and so, both A and B were part of the same stream of redemption--not opposing systems. Jesus taught the Old alongside the New, as long as the Old remained in effect.

 

[fhansen]

The differences between the testaments are minor in the sense that it is the *same God* administering both of them. They are only major when viewed in light of how more important it is to have eternal atonement than temporary atonement. Both, however, are legitimate forms of atonement from God.

In both testaments Man is led to turn away from sin to God! In both testaments believers are encouraged to enter into and continue in a familial relationship with God. So I'm not sure what difference you're trying to convey here?

The new covenant is all about reconciliation between man and God first of all, wrought by Jesus. The problem, the injustice, within fallen man lies in his separation from God, wrought by Adam. The old covenant did not address this most basic and primary injustice; it only addressed the sin that resulted from that alienated state. Once man is in communion with God, then his justification has been realized. apart from the law. IOW, we don't satisfy God's requirements for righteousness by works of the law, by fulfilling the law first- rather we turn to God first, and then He fulfills the Law in us, as we remain in Him. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Again, communion with God is the heart of the NC.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord. Jer 31:33-34

 

[fhansen]

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2

Yes, because the Spirit enables us to be righteous, apart from the law. Rom 8 continues:

"For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

 

[BNR32FAN]

So based on your viewpoint that what he wrote is exclusively for Timothy, does that mean that you're not included?
The verse states that if you remain in the faith, then you are partakers of the blessing in Christ,
if you end up denying Christ then you're on your own.
For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us;
But you have an anointing from the Holy One and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

1 John 2:19 was is written specifically about antichrists. 2 Timothy 2:12 is written specifically about Paul and Timothy both of which we already know were true believers. They were both partakers of Christ and Paul made it clear that if they were to deny Christ that He would deny them which results in condemnation.

Then you have Galatians 5:4 where Paul tells people who had received the Holy Spirit that they are severed from Christ and had fallen from grace.

“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right here Paul says that these people have received the Holy Spirit.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right here he says that they have been severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.

James 5:19-20 tells us that those who fall away are in danger of the death of their soul which only happens in the lake of fire.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Eternal security is a false doctrine that was created in the 16th century and has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles. It’s not biblical.

 

[RandyPNW]

The new covenant is all about reconciliation between man and God first of all, wrought by Jesus. The problem, the injustice, within fallen man lies in his separation from God, wrought by Adam. The old covenant did not address this most basic and primary injustice; it only addressed the sin that resulted from that alienated state.

The Old Covenant did *not,* you say, address the problem of "fallen man," the problem of "separation from God?" How absurd!

The entire Tabernacle structure was geared to deal specifically with Israel's separation from God. This was acknowledged by the erection of barriers between Israel, outside the courtyard, and God's holy presence within the courtyard.

There was even a curtain erected to separate the run of the mill priests in the Tabernacle from God's presence in the Holy of Holies. This was *all about* addressing the problem of Israel's separation from God due to sin!

Once man is in communion with God, then his justification has been realized. apart from the law. IOW, we don't satisfy God's requirements for righteousness by works of the law, by fulfilling the law first- rather we turn to God first, and then He fulfills the Law in us, as we remain in Him.

God "fulfills the Law in us?" No, God fulfilled the Law *through Christ alone!*

God does, however, enable His grace to be extended, through Christ, to us. That was the whole purpose of the Law, and it was the whole purpose of Christian redemption, as well.

God wanted to get His word into us as we comply with His nature, and not with just works alone. The works had been soiled by the stain of sin and its guilt. And so, eternal redemption could not effectively remove the guilt of sin from our works until Christ had died to cleanse our works from sin.

Justification could not be accomplished, in the eternal sense, by the Law because of the record of human sin included in all human works, including in the works of the Law. Anything the priests did under the Temple Law was necessarily contaminated by the priests' own personal guilt!

So Justification from all sin could not be accomplished by any man, all men being sinners. It had to be accomplished by Christ, not just because he was sinless, but also because being God he could forgive sin.

And so, Justification, in the Christian sense, had to be accomplished apart from the Law. But this did not mean that God was not at work with Israel under the Old Covenant. That was preparatory for what is happening now under the New Covenant.

 

[fhansen]

There was even a curtain erected to separate the run of the mill priests in the Tabernacle from God's presence in the Holy of Holies. This was *all about* addressing the problem of Israel's separation from God due to sin!

With Christ's sacrifice the veil was torn into the Holy of Holies. Now the individual had personal access. This is exactly what the OC could not accomplish and did not focus on. It focused on man's external behavior, not his state of being, his heart, that would motivate his actions.

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Ez 36:26-27

God "fulfills the Law in us?" No, God fulfilled the Law *through Christ alone!*

God does, however, enable His grace to be extended, through Christ, to us. That was the whole purpose of the Law, and it was the whole purpose of Christian redemption, as well.

"...enable His grace to be extended, through Christ, to us"?
So what does this mean? Are we now empowered, by the Spirit, to overcome sin or not? Are we now empowered, by the love He pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5), to fulfill the law or not? We are to follow Christ now in how we live our lives, by virtue of the union with God that we now have as He did continuously. By this union, sin is dealt with not only legally but spiritually and personally. Communion with God is the core of the NC. It's what Paul lacked prior to his conversion:

"...as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:6-9

There's a new righteousness that comes by faith that accomplishes what the law, by itself, cannot. A relevant quote from Augustine:
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)

 

[RandyPNW]

With Christ's sacrifice the veil was torn into the Holy of Holies. Now the individual had personal access. This is exactly what the OC could not accomplish and did not focus on. It focused on man's external behavior, not his state of being, his heart, that would motivate his actions.

You're saying that, and I've heard it many times before, but there is not a shred of evidence that it is true. It is purely a Marcion-like argument--Marcion was a heretic who had 2 gods, one of the OT and one of the NT.

Everything in the OT era was individual. This does *not* need to be proven! It certainly is true that God also dealt with nations as a whole. But this never subverted God's purpose with the individual.

When the Law prevented access to God, or to the "Tree of Life," it was simply a restatement of the original penalty for sin. Adam and Eve were separated from the garden of Eden so that they would no longer have access to the Tree of Life.

But God still provided access to Himself, for Adam and Eve, and for all those following. There has always been a dispensation of grace for those who wish to not just obey God's word in "works," but also so that they may participate in His divine nature.

They just could not have Eternal Life awarded them until Christ had washed their works of the stain of human sin. Only Christ could do this.

 

[fhansen]

You're saying that, and I've heard it many times before, but there is not a shred of evidence that it is true. It is purely a Marcion-like argument--Marcion was a heretic who had 2 gods, one of the OT and one of the NT.

It has nothing to do with two Gods. God never abandoned man after the Fall but began, patiently, working with him to ultimately bring about His plan of salvation in him. The NC is all about real change towards that end, in man, not merely the forgiveness of sin which could've been done anytime if that's all that was holding things up. As it was man needed to learn, the hard way, viscerally, for himself, that he was unavoidably sinful and learn what becoming holy was really all about, And the law, reflecting God's divine wisdom for man, was part of that education, a stepping stone to a more mature humanity that might be better prepared to receive the light when it was shown them via Christ and so, like prodigals, run from the pigsty and to the father, arriving back at their true home where the tree of life may be fed from again. It's not about two Gods; its about God's wisdom and patience in dealing with man, obstinate, ignorant, prideful, sinful man.

Again, man's main problem is his separation from God, initiated by the first sin of denying God's authority via an act of disobedience. Once man does that, his morality becomes relative, based on his own opinion, and sin inevitably flourishes which it did soon after the Fall. When man is reconciled with and returned to relationship God, then true righteousness begins to flow again, The law, which was originally written in man's heart to begin with, begins to reign but not by virtue of his own efforts but by virtue of grace, by his union with God. The law is holy, right, spiritual and good according to Paul in Rom 7; it shows us what holiness "looks like" ; the problem is with man, not the law. That's why man must be "reborn". And as Augustine, again, said,
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

 

[o_mlly]

The Apostle Paul's teaching regarding our "Soteriology".. is very unique.

Speaking to non-Jews, Pauline theology is a problem for Matthew the disciple to the Jews.

Matthew’s teaching contradicts Paul’s. Paul rejects the Torah as a means of justification, “We . . . may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal. 2:16). Possibly some of Paul’s radical followers were pushing Paul’s gospel of freedom from Torah to a virtual antinomianism: “All things are lawful for me” (1 Cor. 6:12).

Matthew, exerting a strong influence on the church, acts as a moderating force on this radical element. Matthew answers his opposition by insisting on the validity of the Law, but in a Christian way relegates Paul’s followers, those who are not up to keeping the Law, those who break the Law, to “being called the least in the kingdom” rather than condemning them to suffer eternal damnation (Mat 5:19).

 

[fhansen]

Speaking to non-Jews, Pauline theology is a problem for Matthew the disciple to the Jews.

Matthew’s teaching contradicts Paul’s. Paul rejects the Torah as a means of justification, “We . . . may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal. 2:16). Possibly some of Paul’s radical followers were pushing Paul’s gospel of freedom from Torah to a virtual antinomianism: “All things are lawful for me” (1 Cor. 6:12).

Matthew, exerting a strong influence on the church, acts as a moderating force on this radical element. Matthew answers his opposition by insisting on the validity of the Law, but in a Christian way relegates Paul’s followers, those who are not up to keeping the Law, those who break the Law, to “being called the least in the kingdom” rather than condemning them to suffer eternal damnation (Mat 5:19).

The way that this has been understood historically is to say that while no one can be justified by works of the law, this doesn't mean that the law is abolished or no longer in effect. Man must still obey but not by his own effort, which is Pelagianism, but by the Spirit now, in union with Christ, under grace and not under the law. This is Christianity. In this way a righteousness apart from the law that the law testifies to but cannot accomplish in us is affirmed (Rom 3), It means that we may obey the commandments without even hearing them (Rom 2:13). Jesus, John, James, Matthew, Peter and Paul et al are reconciled.

Paul:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

 

[keepitsimple144]

1 John 2:19 was is written specifically about antichrists. 2 Timothy 2:12 is written specifically about Paul and Timothy both of which we already know were true believers. They were both partakers of Christ and Paul made it clear that if they were to deny Christ that He would deny them which results in condemnation. Then you have Galatians 5:4 where Paul tells people who had received the Holy Spirit that they are severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. “You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ...‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The religious zealots you are referring to can't fathom whether the promised Holy Spirit is granted through faith or through their lame endeavors to earn the free gift of eternal life.

Eternal security is a false doctrine that was created in the 16th century and has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles. It’s not biblical.

Whatever makes you sleep at night. However, Christ is eternal and those who come through Him, He saves to the uttermost.
But you don't belong to Me. Those who belong to Me will never perish.

 

[RandyPNW]

It has nothing to do with two Gods. God never abandoned man after the Fall but began, patiently, working with him to ultimately bring about His plan of salvation in him. The NC is all about real change towards that end, in man, not merely the forgiveness of sin which could've been done anytime if that's all that was holding things up. As it was man needed to learn, the hard way, viscerally, for himself, that he was unavoidably sinful and learn what becoming holy was really all about, And the law, reflecting God's divine wisdom for man, was part of that education, a stepping stone to a more mature humanity that might be better prepared to receive the light when it was shown them via Christ and so, like prodigals, run from the pigsty and to the father, arriving back at their true home where the tree of life may be fed from again. It's not about two Gods; its about God's wisdom and patience in dealing with man, obstinate, ignorant, prideful, sinful man.

That isn't the Gospel. The Gospel has never been about God gradually working towards the New Covenant where He could finally reach people with the proper method. It was really the same God from beginning to end, establishing the need for Christ to come and die for sin so that atonement for sin was made and people could be redeemed from death.

God has always tried to reach men with His word. The plan didn't change--it just needed Christ to provide atonement for sin. Now that Christ has come and provided that atonement, God continues to try to reach men with His word.

The only real difference between the covenants is that in the old covenant Christ had not yet provided atonement and in the new covenant he has. And so, all of the superstructure used to convey the need for Christ's atonement could go once Christ had died on the cross. This historical act merely confirmed what God was like and what He wanted out of Man. There was no change other than that.

 

[keepitsimple144]

Speaking to non-Jews, Pauline theology is a problem for Matthew the disciple to the Jews.

Matthew’s teaching contradicts Paul’s. Paul rejects the Torah as a means of justification, “We . . . may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal. 2:16). Possibly some of Paul’s radical followers were pushing Paul’s gospel of freedom from Torah to a virtual antinomianism: “All things are lawful for me” (1 Cor. 6:12).

Matthew, exerting a strong influence on the church, acts as a moderating force on this radical element. Matthew answers his opposition by insisting on the validity of the Law, but in a Christian way relegates Paul’s followers, those who are not up to keeping the Law, those who break the Law, to “being called the least in the kingdom” rather than condemning them to suffer eternal damnation (Mat 5:19).

Paul was doing the best of his ability to keep the Torah, [Acts 26:5] but then he woke up. But your dead will live, Lord; Isaiah 26:19

They had certain points of disagreement with him about their own religion and about a certain Jesus, who had died but whom Paul affirmed to be alive. Acts 25:19 Acts 24:21 Acts 4:33

But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Rev 3:3
John 14:19 1 Cor 15:34

 

[BNR32FAN]

The religious zealots you are referring to can't fathom whether the promised Holy Spirit is granted through faith or through their lame endeavors to earn the free gift of eternal life.

Whatever makes you sleep at night. However, Christ is eternal and those who come through Him, He saves to the uttermost.
But you don't belong to Me. Those who belong to Me will never perish.

You’re not actually considering the implications of these verses of scripture. I feel like you’re overlooking them and not actually paying attention to what they’re teaching. Our theology shouldn’t be “whatever makes you sleep at night” it should be what does the Bible actually teach. If you have to overlook certain passages in order to hold on to your theology then it’s not biblical. Sound doctrine isn’t whatever we want it to be it’s what is actually taught in the scriptures and if there are passages that contradict your theology then it’s not biblical.