Palisades Fire live updates: Wildfires spread in Los Angeles, prompting mandatory evacuations, as Santa Ana winds expected to intensify

[RDKirk]

I still think it's strange how the trees didn't burn.

Healthy trees not surrounded by dry brush (kindling) resist burning.

 

[RDKirk]

Building like that is probably more expensive than the usual style of US buildings of a wooden frame with cardboard sheets between them.

Not greatly so. A fire-resistant exterior (brick or stucco), no soffits or other areas for embers to enter the attic (possible in a mild climate), metal or tile roof, removing combustible materials away from the building...those are not exceedingly expensive measures in new construction.

The problem is builders will cut any cost that doesn't have a "first-buyer" payoff. They don't see any profit in "this house will have a high resale value." There would have to be some first-buyer's incentives provided by the state government or insurance companies.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Not greatly so. A fire-resistant exterior (brick or stucco), no soffits or other areas for embers to enter the attic (possible in a mild climate), metal or tile roof, removing combustible materials away from the building...those are not exceedingly expensive measures in new construction.

The problem is builders will cut any cost that doesn't have a "first-buyer" payoff. They don't see any profit in "this house will have a high resale value." There would have to be some first-buyer's incentives provided by the state government or insurance companies.

From what I understand about the passive house designs (which admittedly isn't much) that facilitate the lack of soffits, the issue is less the raw cost of construction and more with how finicky the design and construction are to get right. I'm more familiar with the principles of designing acoustically-isolated (i.e. "soundproofed") spaces, which follow similar methodologies as the passive and net-zero housing designs and, in that world, things can be pretty binary - you either did it right, or you did it wrong. I've heard it likened to an aquarium - it either leaks or it doesn't. Even if it leaks a little, it still leaks. It's much less subjective than "those walls are straight enough" or "that moulding could've been coped better." And IME, a crew that can appreciate and follow those kinds of stringent details is going to charge more than normal, if you can even find them in the first place. I've personally had designers and builders who were supposedly knowledgable and concerned with such things completely drop the ball.

On top of that, any new construction is going to be more expensive than the same house that's not brand new. (People often don't realize it, but buildings do depreciate. It's the land underneath that appreciates.) A custom house is going to be even more expensive.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Investigators study Eaton Canyon electrical tower area as possible origin of Altadena fire​

Southern California Edison officials have so far said they do not believe their electrical equipment was responsible.

Edison under scrutiny for Eaton fire. Who pays liability will be ‘new frontier’ for California​

Six years ago, Pacific Gas & Electric filed for bankruptcy after it was found liable for sparking a succession of devastating wildfires, including the blaze that destroyed the town of Paradise and led to more than 100 deaths.

Wall Street investors lost confidence and ratings agencies threatened to downgrade California’s investor-owned utilities, prompting legislators to come up with an innovative solution: the establishment of a $21-billion wildfire fund, split equally between shareholders and utility customers.

Now, after two major wildfires have destroyed thousands of homes and left at least two dozen dead in and around Los Angeles, the state’s wildfire fund would face its first major test if another utility is found liable for sparking the blazes.

Still, even if the wildfire fund bailed out Edison, there could be grave consequences for Edison and other utility companies. If a large portion of the wildfire fund’s $21 billion was depleted, that could affect market perception of the fund, negatively affect utility company credit scores, and plunge investor-owned utilities — which cover about 80% customers across the state of California — into chaos.

[SCE stock is down ~25% from before the fire.]

The causes of the fires have yet to be determined.

Investigators looking into the Eaton fire — which caused at least 17 fatalities and damaged an estimated 7,000 structures across Pasadena and Altadena — are focusing on an area around a Southern California Edison electrical transmission tower in Eaton Canyon.

The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, the municipal utility that operates in Pacific Palisades, says it did not opt into the wildfire fund because it would have been too costly for its customers. If the large municipal utility was liable for the Palisades fire, the city of L.A. could face exorbitant financial costs. [And that fire appears to have been caused by a smoldering fireworks or otherwise human-caused fire from NYE.]

 

[RDKirk]

From what I understand about the passive house designs (which admittedly isn't much) that facilitate the lack of soffits, the issue is less the raw cost of construction and more with how finicky the design and construction are to get right. I'm more familiar with the principles of designing acoustically-isolated (i.e. "soundproofed") spaces, which follow similar methodologies as the passive and net-zero housing designs and, in that world, things can be pretty binary - you either did it right, or you did it wrong. I've heard it likened to an aquarium - it either leaks or it doesn't. Even if it leaks a little, it still leaks. It's much less subjective than "those walls are straight enough" or "that moulding could've been coped better." And IME, a crew that can appreciate and follow those kinds of stringent details is going to charge more than normal, if you can even find them in the first place. I've personally had designers and builders who were supposedly knowledgable and concerned with such things completely drop the ball.

On top of that, any new construction is going to be more expensive than the same house that's not brand new. (People often don't realize it, but buildings do depreciate. It's the land underneath that appreciates.) A custom house is going to be even more expensive.

It's not as binary for a passive fire-resistant house as it is to soundproof a room. An ember isn't going to crawl around until it finds an opening with the physical inevitability of a sound wave. An ember has a distinct and short lifespan. "Ember-resistant" is easier than "water-resistant" and much easier than "sound resistant."

But, yes, designing and building a house even "water-resistant" is more expensive than building with no concern for water resistance.

You continually come up with reasons not to do things right.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It's not as binary for a passive fire-resistant house as it is to soundproof a room. An ember isn't going to crawl around until it finds an opening with the physical inevitability of a sound wave. An ember has a distinct and short lifespan. "Ember-resistant" is easier than "water-resistant" and much easier than "sound resistant."

But, yes, designing and building a house even "water-resistant" is more expensive than building with no concern for water resistance.

You continually come up with reasons not to do things right.

Oh, I would love it if everybody did things right. I'm not trying to coming up with reasons not to do things right. I, with my cynical and dim view of contractors, was merely trying to point out reasons why they probably wouldn't go right.

 

[BCP1928]

From what I understand about the passive house designs (which admittedly isn't much) that facilitate the lack of soffits, the issue is less the raw cost of construction and more with how finicky the design and construction are to get right. I'm more familiar with the principles of designing acoustically-isolated (i.e. "soundproofed") spaces, which follow similar methodologies as the passive and net-zero housing designs and, in that world, things can be pretty binary - you either did it right, or you did it wrong. I've heard it likened to an aquarium - it either leaks or it doesn't. Even if it leaks a little, it still leaks. It's much less subjective than "those walls are straight enough" or "that moulding could've been coped better." And IME, a crew that can appreciate and follow those kinds of stringent details is going to charge more than normal, if you can even find them in the first place. I've personally had designers and builders who were supposedly knowledgable and concerned with such things completely drop the ball.

On top of that, any new construction is going to be more expensive than the same house that's not brand new. (People often don't realize it, but buildings do depreciate. It's the land underneath that appreciates.) A custom house is going to be even more expensive.

And that may be the price people have to pay in order to live in what is by nature an arid brushland prone to frequent fires.

 

[RDKirk]

And that may be the price people have to pay in order to live in what is by nature an arid brushland prone to frequent fires.

We all have to pick our poisons. It's like people in Florida who build houses on offshore sand bars...and then complain that insurance won't cover them.

 

[essentialsaltes]

2 arrested for arson in separate incidents​

Later Tuesday night, crews responded to reports of a suspect setting trash on fire, police said. The fire was extinguished. That suspect said she set fires because she enjoyed causing "chaos and destruction," police said.

[The other said he liked the smell of burning leaves.]

 

[Apple Sky]

Healthy trees not surrounded by dry brush (kindling) resist burning.

Fire proof trees in Maui

We could use these types of trees here in OZ where bush fires are always a threat. Check out this short vid , which shows cars , buildings etc all burnt , and yet among the destruction there are green trees still standing , lot's of them , amazing!! Maui Fires | Where Can We Buy Some of Those...

www.christianforums.com

 

[wing2000]

Not greatly so. A fire-resistant exterior (brick or stucco), no soffits or other areas for embers to enter the attic (possible in a mild climate), metal or tile roof, removing combustible materials away from the building...those are not exceedingly expensive measures in new construction.

The problem is builders will cut any cost that doesn't have a "first-buyer" payoff. They don't see any profit in "this house will have a high resale value." There would have to be some first-buyer's incentives provided by the state government or insurance companies.

Of course, builders will take the most profitable route. If there's enough demand, some may offer the fire resistent build design....but that's a big if. A new home buyer may prefer having the swimming pool or an extra bedroom over the fire-resistent home design.

As it is, many CA home owners who lost homes built decades ago will be hard pressed to replace those homes with the current building codes. It's likely that many are under-insured and or have no fire insurance at all. Major insurance companies have been leaving CA due to the huge claims from wild fires over the last few years.

 

[RDKirk]

Of course, builders will take the most profitable route. If there's enough demand, some may offer the fire resistent build design....but that's a big if. A new home buyer may prefer having the swimming pool or an extra bedroom over the fire-resistent home design.

Unfortunately true. For instance, here in northern Texas, the soil composition creates a well-known truism: Every house either needs foundation work, has had foundation work, or will need foundation work. However, the ultimate and permanent fix is also well-known and would be easy and relatively cheap to implement during construction...adding perhaps $5 to $10,000 to the total cost of the home. The "problem" is that the payoff won't be for 20-30 years, when the home doesn't need foundation work. So, no builder does it.

As it is, many CA home owners who lost homes built decades ago will be hard pressed to replace those homes with the current building codes. It's likely that many are under-insured and or have no fire insurance at all. Major insurance companies have been leaving CA due to the huge claims from wild fires over the last few years.

When insurance companies refuse to insure you, it means "you ain't livin' right." That should be a wake up call to change your ways.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Off topic somewhat, but I remember my father saying to me when I was young (a long time ago), "In Australia if you need flood insurance you can't get it, and if you can get it, you don't need it".

That's floods but we've had our fair share of fires as well, although nothing like the property damage in LA.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'll happily allow the GOP to 'blame' California for giving Trump the limitless credit card if that'll stop this nonsense and get an aid package put together to help people in need.

And if a little flattery is required, we all know that's the best way to Trump's heart.

California's Newsom will join GOP governors in raising flag for Trump inauguration​

California Gov. Gavin Newsom will join Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson and some GOP governors in directing U.S. flags be raised to full height on Inauguration Day

Idaho Gov. Brad Little, North Dakota Gov. Kelly Armstrong, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey, Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee and Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds noted in announcements this week that U.S. flags across their states would be relowered on Jan. 21 in honor of Carter. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott issued a similar notice on Monday.

 

[keith99]

Not greatly so. A fire-resistant exterior (brick or stucco), no soffits or other areas for embers to enter the attic (possible in a mild climate), metal or tile roof, removing combustible materials away from the building...those are not exceedingly expensive measures in new construction.

The problem is builders will cut any cost that doesn't have a "first-buyer" payoff. They don't see any profit in "this house will have a high resale value." There would have to be some first-buyer's incentives provided by the state government or insurance companies.

The vast majority of homes near me are predominantly stucco, though many have some decorative wood. Hopefully decorative wood will not be a feature in any rebuilt houses.

Many houses in Altadena were ancient. As in originally having wood shingle roofs. I think all such roofs were replaced at least a couple of decades ago. But other fire vulnerable features probably remained.

Ironically, I just had to deal with a cost cutting when built issue with my home. The builder did not put in any sanitary cleanouts. That means any clogged drain is a royal pain. Each one that should be there would only have cost a few dollars if installed during building. It costs in the hundreds to add one now. The original water cutoff entering the house was just that. One cutoff. I long ago had it upgraded to separate cutoffs for the house and outside pipes. (This does not count the utility cutoff at the meter box).

 

[iluvatar5150]

It costs in the hundreds to add one now.

Man, I wish I could get my plumber to do anything more than pull up to my house for "hundreds" of dollars.

 

[RDKirk]

The vast majority of homes near me are predominantly stucco, though many have some decorative wood. Hopefully decorative wood will not be a feature in any rebuilt houses.

Many houses in Altadena were ancient. As in originally having wood shingle roofs. I think all such roofs were replaced at least a couple of decades ago. But other fire vulnerable features probably remained.

Ironically, I just had to deal with a cost cutting when built issue with my home. The builder did not put in any sanitary cleanouts. That means any clogged drain is a royal pain. Each one that should be there would only have cost a few dollars if installed during building. It costs in the hundreds to add one now. The original water cutoff entering the house was just that. One cutoff. I long ago had it upgraded to separate cutoffs for the house and outside pipes. (This does not count the utility cutoff at the meter box).

So, California plans to force automakers to sell only electric cars by 2035. They would do better to initiate state incentives to modernize homes and neighborhoods to fire-resistant standards by 2035. Handle the problems that are truly their problems, instead of trying to fix the world.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

So, California plans to force automakers to sell only electric cars by 2035. They would do better to initiate state incentives to modernize homes and neighborhoods to fire-resistant standards by 2035. Handle the problems that are truly their problems, instead of trying to fix the world.

I feel like these two objectives are so massively different in scope and scale that you can't really compare them. The previous California EV tax credit paid out about $1.5 billion over its lifetime and subsidized about 600,000 vehicles (~$2500/vehicle). The state has about 7.5 million single-family homes, and I would guess that at least half of those were constructed prior to 1980. So, given the costs of retrofitting existing construction, you're probably looking at ~2 orders of magnitude more money (or more) to get your proposal accomplished than what was spent on the last EV tax credit.

 

[RDKirk]

I feel like these two objectives are so massively different in scope and scale that you can't really compare them. The previous California EV tax credit paid out about $1.5 billion over its lifetime and subsidized about 600,000 vehicles (~$2500/vehicle). The state has about 7.5 million single-family homes, and I would guess that at least half of those were constructed prior to 1980. So, given the costs of retrofitting existing construction, you're probably looking at ~2 orders of magnitude more money (or more) to get your proposal accomplished than what was spent on the last EV tax credit.

Then they'd better get started pronto.

How many homes were lost in these wildfires? I would argue that the impact of wildfires upon California citizens from today over the next half century will be easily more than 2 orders of magnitude greater than the impact of ending the sales of ICE vehicles upon California citizens over that same period of time.

 

[DaisyDay]

Then they'd better get started pronto.

How many homes were lost in these wildfires? I would argue that the impact of wildfires upon California citizens from today over the next half century will be easily more than 2 orders of magnitude greater than the impact of ending the sales of ICE vehicles upon California citizens over that same period of time.

The push for EV over ICE has been driven by the California smog problem as much as anthropogenic global warming. If you're young, you might not be aware of just how bad and detrimental to public health smog used to be**, so if you are figuring costs, you should also include health costs from pollution which have been greatly mitigated in the latter part of the 20th century, but which still exist.

History | California Air Resources Board

ww2.arb.ca.gov

In fact, the history of California’s pioneering efforts to reduce air pollutants dates back even further. The first recognized episodes of ‘smog’ occurred in Los Angeles in the summer of 1943. Visibility was only three blocks. People suffered from burning eyes and lungs, and nausea. The phenomenon was termed a "gas attack" and blamed on a nearby butadiene plant.​

​

But when the plant was shut down, the smog did not abate. In 1947, the Los Angeles County Air Pollution Control District – the first such body in the nation – was formed. The district regulated obvious culprits, like smoke-belching power plants and oil refineries, but still the smog persisted.​

​

It was not until the early 1950s that it became clear the automobile was the main culprit. That’s when Dr. Arie Haagen-Smit discovered the nature and causes of photochemical smog. He made the discovery while on a one-year leave of absence from Caltech, where he was a bioorganic chemistry professor. Working in a specially-equipped Los Angeles air district laboratory, he determined that two chief constituents of automobile exhaust – airborne hydrocarbons from gasoline, and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) produced by internal combustion engines – were to blame for smog. His research, highlighting the reaction of sunlight with automobile exhaust and industrial air pollution, became the foundation upon which today’s air pollution regulations are based.​

**If you would like to experience this first hand, New Delhi is one place to go.