Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[Tigger45]

Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.

You're fine discussing this topic here in this forum if you choose to.

 

[prodromos]

Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.

Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threads

 

[FenderTL5]

Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.

Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threads

I would tend to think we could stay on-topic and chase fewer rabbits from those being argumentative as well.

 

[ladodgers6]

Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threads

Thanks, I will check it out.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Why EOC is so vague about their religion makes me run for my life.

I don't think that is vague. Do you know what the difference between a parent being angry, and a parent appearing angry (perhaps purposely) to a child? Then you know what "being" is.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Edit

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

No, that is absolutely incorrect. I wish you would back-up your comment with references, instead of these blank accusations.

Contrast the work of Abraham Paul discusses, with the one James discusses.

I don't know what accusations you are referring to.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Huh? Serial killers and child molesters are essentially "GOOD"? What on earth are you talking about? You make it seem that no one is evil or bad in all of history; including Hitler who slaughtered millions of people. Your premise of the Fall is just off. Your premise of what we became; by One Act of Disobedience
which bought sin, death, and condemnation is just off. Satan is essentially "GOOD", really??? But you say that people cannot do good without God. So what are they then before God acts? Good??? How can that be if they need God? You have a misconception of the Fall. Because God created Adam in Perfect righteousness and holiness, perfectly capable of fulfilling all of God's commands. Adam had a free-will to choose to obey or disobey. And there were sanctions for disobedience and blessings if he obeyed God.
So what is sin in your religion? A time out?

Did Hitler INNATELY kill anyone? No, therefore it is not an innate (essential) quality.

Hunans are, however, innately made by God, in the image of God. God also loves us; now does God love evil? No, God loves us because we are innately good. God does not need to be reconciled to us, we need to be reconciled to God. "God so hated the world that he gave his only begotten Son." Does that sound right?

Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies.

 

[ladodgers6]

I don't think that is vague. Do you know what the difference between a parent being angry, and a parent appearing angry (perhaps purposely) to a child? Then you know what "being" is.

"APPEARING ANGRY"??? I am a parent. And if my kids are disobedient, yes I get angry. And punish them for what they have done. When I disobeyed my Mother, I got punished. But you seem to suggest that punishment or being angry is just a façade. God hates sin, and punishes people who sin. Just like n civil society. When people break the Law, they face the consequences of it through court who render the justice.

 

[ladodgers6]

Contrast the work of Abraham Paul discusses, with the one James discusses.

I don't know what accusations you are referring to.

People think that Paul & James contradict each other. And this couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[ladodgers6]

Did Hitler INNATELY kill anyone? No, therefore it is not an innate (essential) quality.

Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?

Hunans are, however, innately made by God, in the image of God. God also loves us; now does God love evil? No, God loves us because we are innately good. God does not need to be reconciled to us, we need to be reconciled to God. "God so hated the world that he gave his only begotten Son." Does that sound right?

Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies.

Yes, we believe we are made in God's image. But that image is now marred by sin. God cast us out of paradise because of it. Our suffering & misery was bought upon us all because of sin. Death & condemnation is the consequence we face because of sin.

Romans 5:8 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God loves us even WHILE we are STILL SINNERS!! That's the Gospel of Grace!!! But even here in your comments, you place the works of sinners as the condition why God loves us. And that is a error to God who justifies the ungodly. Who went home Justified the Tax Collector or the Self-Righteous Pharisee who boast about his religious works???

And for the record "CHRIST" is our reconciliation; our mediator; our surety. In Him we are reconciled to God.

I know Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies. That's the problem why you do not understand God's Grace in human bondage to sin.

 

[FenderTL5]

Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?


Yes, we believe we are made in God's image. But that image is now marred by sin. God cast us out of paradise because of it. Our suffering & misery was bought upon us all because of sin. Death & condemnation is the consequence we face because of sin.

The topic seems to be "Original Sin".
I would presume that if you are a convinced Calvinist your POV is that of 'Total Depravity' or something similar.

The fall and the consequence of Adam's sin.
The Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam and Eve committed (except them) but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. The consequences and penalties of this ancestral act are transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human is a descendant of Adam then 'no one is free from the implications of this sin' (which is human death) and that the only way to be freed from this is through baptism.

In The Orthodox Way, Bishop Kallistos Ware writes it this way:
The Orthodox tradition, without minimizing the effects of the fall, does not however believe that it resulted in a 'total depravity', such as the Calvinists assert in their more pessimistic moments. The divine image in man was obscured but not obliterated. His free choice has been restricted in its exercise but not destroyed. Even in a fallen world man is still capable of generous self-sacrifice and loving compassion. Even in a fallen world man still retains some knowledge of God and can enter by grace into communion with him. There are many saints in the pages of the Old Testament, men and women such as Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Moses, Elijah and Jeremiah; and outside the Chosen People of Israel there are figures such as Socrates who not only taught the truth but lived it. Yet it remains true that human sin -- the original sin of Adam, compounded by the personal sins of each succeeding generation -- has set a gulf between God and man such that man by his own efforts could not bridge..

..The doctrine of original sin means rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin.

 

[Christina C]

Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.

Wasn't meant to sound secretive. Just meant you would get more EO responses to your questions about Orthodoxy if you posted there. Some of the EO don't venture outside the TAW sites.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

"APPEARING ANGRY"??? I am a parent. And if my kids are disobedient, yes I get angry. And punish them for what they have done. When I disobeyed my Mother, I got punished. But you seem to suggest that punishment or being angry is just a façade. God hates sin, and punishes people who sin. Just like n civil society. When people break the Law, they face the consequences of it through court who render the justice.

I'm pretty sure God places pardon and forgiveness far beyond justice, unlike "civil society" (the world).

I think a good parent punishes his children out of love for them.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

People think that Paul & James contradict each other. And this couldn't be farther from the truth.

I never suggested they contradict each other, I said they were using the term "works" in distinct ways.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?

Was it Adam's innate quality to disobey God? Was it Lucifer's?

Yes, we believe we are made in God's image. But that image is now marred by sin. God cast us out of paradise because of it. Our suffering & misery was bought upon us all because of sin. Death & condemnation is the consequence we face because of sin.

Romans 5:8 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God loves us even WHILE we are STILL SINNERS!! That's the Gospel of Grace!!! But even here in your comments, you place the works of sinners as the condition why God loves us. And that is a error to God who justifies the ungodly. Who went home Justified the Tax Collector or the Self-Righteous Pharisee who boast about his religious works???

Innate qualities are not works, that precisely is the essence-energies distinction.

And for the record "CHRIST" is our reconciliation; our mediator; our surety. In Him we are reconciled to God.

Yes, that is the whole point of the incarnation, to reconcile humanity to God.

I know Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies. That's the problem why you do not understand God's Grace in human bondage to sin.

I don't think God judges you for your essence, but for your actions. If your essence were evil, not only would it be strange to judge you for it, it would also be strange to hold you accountable for evil actions, since you would not be responsible for them.

Now I think it is time you answered a few of my questions. How do you respond to Luther saying we should "sin boldly" and feel no contrition? This certainly doesn't sound like the Publican you just cited. How do you reconcile both Luther and Calvin being murderous, with saying that precludes someone from being a Christian? Do you draw your Christian theology from bloodthirsty heathens? How do you reconcile God hating evil, with God loving humanity, if humanity is purely and essentially evil? How do you reconcile God being unchangeable, with the doctrine that God needs catharsis in order to forgive us? How do you reconcile Christ saying the Spirit of Truth would guard the Church continuously, when your own tradition has not existed continuously for more than a few hundred years? How do you reconcile Christ giving the Church the office to absolve sins (John 20:23, Matthew 18:18), with a theology that says the Church plays no role in absolution? How do you reconcile God saying that at the Final Judgement he will judge man for his own sins, not those of his ancestors (Ezekiel 18:20), with the idea that we inherit guilt for Adam's sin?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Eh, I don't think that's entirely fair. If the Episcopal Church is worldly, it's no more so than any other branch of Western Christianity, liberal or conservative, as they all tend to define themselves in relation to modern secular society, either positively or negatively. Being in a constant state of reactionary rage seems by far the more dangerous of the two options.

I would say trying to shoehorn support for Israel or capitalism into Christianity is just as worldly, yes.

 

[ladodgers6]

The topic seems to be "Original Sin".
I would presume that if you are a convinced Calvinist your POV is that of 'Total Depravity' or something similar.

Yes I believe in the Biblical teaching of TD. BTW thanks for providing more detail.

The fall and the consequence of Adam's sin.
The Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam and Eve committed (except them) but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. The consequences and penalties of this ancestral act are transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human is a descendant of Adam then 'no one is free from the implications of this sin' (which is human death) and that the only way to be freed from this is through baptism.

Thanks again for presenting EOC position in more detail. I have some questions. First, if no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam & Eve committed, then why are we held responsible for the consequences of Adam & Eve's sin? How did Adam & Eve Fall?

Ancestral sin Wikipedia
Ancestral sin is the object of a Christian doctrine taught by the Orthodox Church as well as other Eastern Christians. Some identify it as "inclination towards sin, a heritage from the sin of our progenitors". But most distinguish it from this tendency that remains even in baptized persons, since ancestral sin "is removed through baptism".

So please explain this ancestral sin? If people are essentially good, because they are created in the image of God. Why do they sin?

In The Orthodox Way, Bishop Kallistos Ware writes it this way:
The Orthodox tradition, without minimizing the effects of the fall, does not however believe that it resulted in a 'total depravity', such as the Calvinists assert in their more pessimistic moments. The divine image in man was obscured but not obliterated. His free choice has been restricted in its exercise but not destroyed. Even in a fallen world man is still capable of generous self-sacrifice and loving compassion. Even in a fallen world man still retains some knowledge of God and can enter by grace into communion with him. There are many saints in the pages of the Old Testament, men and women such as Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Moses, Elijah and Jeremiah; and outside the Chosen People of Israel there are figures such as Socrates who not only taught the truth but lived it. Yet it remains true that human sin -- the original sin of Adam, compounded by the personal sins of each succeeding generation -- has set a gulf between God and man such that man by his own efforts could not bridge..

Calvinists believe what the Scripture teach. And in Romans 3 Paul says "NO ONE DOES GOOD". Because of our fallen condition. But a lot of people with strongly disagree with TD, because people still believe that we can climb the ladder up to God through our efforts. Like when Satan told Adam & Eve you will not surely die! And people believe this! Instead of what God said to Adam & Eve, that in the day you eat of it, you will surely die! You mention OT saints, I will mention a Promised Seed, that God sent by a Covenant of Grace. To save His people from their sins. And the OT Promise is a unfolding of the Redemptive Plan of God through History, in the person of Christ. This is the Gospel for the ungodly! I see you make no mention of such a Promise God made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham.

..The doctrine of original sin means rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin.

The Belgic Confession
The Doctrine of Original Sin (Article 15)

We believe that by the disobedience of Adam original sin has been spread through the whole human race.

It is a corruption of all nature - an inherited depravity which even infects small infants in their mother's womb, and the root which produces in man every sort of sin. It is therefore so vile and enormous in God's sight that it is enough to condemn the human race, and it is not abolished or wholly uprooted even by baptism, seeing that sin constantly boils forth as though from a contaminated spring.

Nevertheless, it is not imputed to God's children for their condemnation but is forgiven by his grace and mercy - not to put them to sleep but so that the awareness of this corruption might often make believers groan as they long to be set free from the "body of this death."

 

[ladodgers6]

Wasn't meant to sound secretive. Just meant you would get more EO responses to your questions about Orthodoxy if you posted there. Some of the EO don't venture outside the TAW sites.

I'll check it out. Thanks

 

[ladodgers6]

Was it Adam's innate quality to disobey God? Was it Lucifer's?

I know what I believe and why I believe it. Our confessions state that Adam fell by His own FREE-WILL. Nobody forced Adam & Eve to disobey and sin against God. They did it willingly. So I ask politely, why & how did Adam or Lucifer fall because of disobedience to God? When they possess innate quality? I am not trying to be difficult. I want to know if you can answer these questions or not?

Innate qualities are not works, that precisely is the essence-energies distinction.

Yes I understand your POV. But you have problems in explaining away why we and Satan sinned. Can you explain to me as if I was a 2 year old. In other words you need to spell it out for this dummy. Sorry I am slow, and need a simple explanation.

Yes, that is the whole point of the incarnation, to reconcile humanity to God.

Amen!! Why & how did Christ reconcile sinful humanity to God?

I don't think God judges you for your essence, but for your actions. If your essence were evil, not only would it be strange to judge you for it, it would also be strange to hold you accountable for evil actions, since you would not be responsible for them.

Well here's a major point that needs to be addressed. Now you mentioned earlier or I could be wrong and I got it from another EOC member. That everyone, including Satan is essentially good because they possess innate quality contrary to evil. So think about it for a moment before replying. Does evil flow from nothing within a person or the innate essence of the mind, heart, and soul? I have studied FREE-WILL for several years now. Calvinism does teach that sinners have FREE-WILL, because nobody forces us to sin. We do them willingly because that's what we love, crave, lust for.

Here's Calvin on the topic,

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

You make it seem, that people are forced against their innate quality to sin. That they do it against their WILLS? What is "WILL" then? If sin is not coming from our innate wickedness, then where does it come from? These are very important questions that need to be addressed. Can you answer it or not?

Now I think it is time you answered a few of my questions. How do you respond to Luther saying we should "sin boldly" and feel no contrition?

By all means, ask me whatever you want. I am not afraid, but only seek the truth. I know what I believe, and why I believe it. Yes, I have encountered this question many times. Luther was driving home a point to Philipp Melanchthon who was struggling with doing enough good works. Especially when he sinned. Thinking that he could get back into God's good grace with his evangelical obedience. And this is where Legalism goes far back to Satan's doctrine that He used against Adam & Eve. Both Legalism & Antinomianism has plagued the church from the beginning.

So that I explain this as clearly as I can. Paul says in Galatians that no flesh will be justified through the works of the Law; for the record, any Law; Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral. Because the fallen progeny of Adam are already under its condemnation because One Man's Act of disobedience. The are fallen through & through; not just a part of us, all of us is corrupt and fallen, including our innate quality! Which is the root of all evil; the heart, mind, soul. So for a fallen sinner to attempt to keep the whole law perfectly. Is a foolish mission.

Only by the Grace of God in Christ is what saves us. Something outside of us; meaning stop looking inward for innate quality to merit God's justice. There is nothing within us that can stand before a Holy God who demands perfect righteousness. But God gives us this righteousness in His Son which we receive it through Faith Alone. And it covers us like white robes; we clothed in Christ!

2 Corinthians 5:21 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is the cure for legalism. The Gospel of Grace is the news good that God has provided us with everything we need to be saved, and includes even OUR sanctification. Knowing and resting on Christ, even as Christians, we need to hear the Gospel of Grace everyday. Because its by the works of another; namely Christ Jesus and what he has done. Is what saves us. People have the tendency to locate their salvation in their response to the Gospel, rather than in the Gospel itself. Once we lose what saves us; Christ Jesus and his perfect works, and shift it to us in any form. We are lost. And this is precisely what Satan and demons are doing. Attempting to destroys this glorious Gospel of Grace that justified the ungodly. To some form of a do to list, or deceiving us in believing that the Gospel of Grace is not enough and we need to complete it. Well, then it becomes another Gospel, that is no Gospel at all, Paul says.

Now Once we become believers, we live to God. Paul does not deny works, like a lot people think he is contradicting James. So I will quote Paul on Romans 6. Where Paul speaks against Antinomianism-which is anti-law or that since believers under Grace they do not need the Holy Law of God. This is a misconception by most. Anyway, here's Paul:

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfa was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

And the remedy for Antinomianism is also the Gospel of Grace. Because if you understand and believe it, you will perform good works. For those who place to much emphasis on evangelical obedience which will cause issues, instead preach and listen to the Gospel of Grace everyday. Paul says in Galatians 6:9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

So Luther is sharing the Gospel of Grace with Philipp Melanchthon, because he is struggling with Legalism, like we all do. And when we do, we need the only remedy that can cure us of it, which is the whole Christ! Sorry I got long winded. I have more to share, but I will close with this for now. And I will answer the rest soon. Because I have not completely answered this question, but I will.

Please bear with me. And I promise to answer any & all questions.