Orthodox view of purgatory

[ProScribe]

What do Orthodox believers say about the RC view of purgatory? There was no clear indication of whether it is true or not.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do Orthodox believers say about the RC view of purgatory? There was no clear indication of whether it is true or not

that it is wrong. there is no third place for souls to go after death.

 

[ProScribe]

If you research what different people say about the subjekt you'll find a variety of different opinions.

 

[Knee V]

There are certain interpretations of certain elements of the doctrine of purgatory that I tend to think may not be 100% incompatible with Orthodoxy. For example, during this life it is painful to part ways with the sin in our lives. When we die, should our destination be heaven, we'll no longer have that sin with us. At what point does that sin cease to be part of us? At the point when we lose all sinfulness, is it painful like it is when we're alive, but compounded because it's a whole bunch all in one shot? Or maybe something else entirely?

I don't have the answer to those questions (and, frankly, I don't spend very much time thinking about it... it will be what it will be), but, depending on what those answers are, it may demonstrate that that aspect of the doctrine of purgatory may not be completely beyond possibility. Or maybe not.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Can it be said that those people in hades who are capable of benefiting from our prayers (as opposed to those who will stay in hades even though the Church prays for the dead) - are in a purgatory-like state? (that is: temporary suffering before they are able to be united with God) or not?

 

[Michael G]

Can it be said that those people in hades who are capable of benefiting from our prayers (as opposed to those who will stay in hades even though the Church prays for the dead) - are in a purgatory-like state? (that is: temporary suffering before they are able to be united with God) or not?

No. Orthodox do not believe in any form of purgatory what-so-ever. You can do NOTHING to work off the sins you have committed. The only way the sins you have committed can be removed from your soul is by the mercy of God. No ammount of good works on your behalf will have any effect on how merciful God is upon you.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No. Orthodox do not believe in any form of purgatory what-so-ever. You can do NOTHING to work off the sins you have committed. The only way the sins you have committed can be removed from your soul is by the mercy of God. No ammount of good works on your behalf will have any effect on how merciful God is upon you.

Actually, Catholics don't believe this either.. *sigh*
Purgatory is for the effects of sins, not for sins themselves. In fact, if someone has unforgiven mortal sin when they die, they go to hell, not Purgatory, which is only for those who are saved at the moment of death.

What I was referring to, was whether the souls that can benefit from our prayers are somehow different than those who can not.. ?

 

[Michael G]

Actually, Catholics don't believe this either.. *sigh*
Purgatory is for the effects of sins, not for sins themselves. In fact, if someone has unforgiven mortal sin when they die, they go to hell, not Purgatory, which is only for those who are saved at the moment of death.

What I was referring to, was whether the souls that can benefit from our prayers are somehow different than those who can not.. ?

There is no mortal sin. All sin is deadly and scripture makes it clear there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

The effects of your sin were all taken care of on the cross, by Christ. Nothing you can do, nothing you can pray, nothing short of the mercy of God can do anything to get you into Heaven.

Any soul can benefit from prayer. However, purgatory is a medieval invention of the Roman Catholic Church and does not exist.

 

[Nick T]

What do Orthodox believers say about the RC view of purgatory? There was no clear indication of whether it is true or not.

We do not believe in Roman Catholic Purgatory. At the false Council of Florence this was one of the major issues and St. Mark of Ephesus wrote about it.

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There is no mortal sin. All sin is deadly and scripture makes it clear there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

The effects of your sin were all taken care of on the cross, by Christ. Nothing you can do, nothing you can pray, nothing short of the mercy of God can do anything to get you into Heaven.

Any soul can benefit from prayer. However, purgatory is a medieval invention of the Roman Catholic Church and does not exist.

Some comments of your post...

1. if any soul can benefit from prayer, why would there still be hell after the Last Judgement? is that because people are not praying enough?

2. No Catholic believes that it's anything but God's mercy that saves us.. sorry..

3. effects of sin: those are imperfections and attachments. Don't we still have them after death? so what happens to them?

 

[LinuxLurker01]

3. effects of sin: those are imperfections and attachments. Don't we still have them after death? so what happens to them?

Do we still have them after death? I would think dying would be a "purification" unto itself. (Note: I am guessing here; I'm not speaking for the Church.)

 

[Rhamiel]

Monica, please do not debate with people on TAW, it would be a shame for someone to get you banned agian...

have the EO ever had a council that has said the Toll House theory is heretical?

 

[LinuxLurker01]

have the EO ever had a council that has said the Toll House theory is heretical?

On the contrary, it seems some strict traditionalists hold fast to the idea.

 

[Michael G]

Some comments of your post...

1. if any soul can benefit from prayer, why would there still be hell after the Last Judgement? is that because people are not praying enough?

2. No Catholic believes that it's anything but God's mercy that saves us.. sorry..
3. effects of sin: those are imperfections and attachments. Don't we still have them after death? so what happens to them?

1471. The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of penance.

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina norm 1).

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin" (ibid. norm 2, norm 3).

Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

1472. To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand, every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death in the state called purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain (Council of Trent [1551]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1712-1713; [1563]: 1820).

1473. The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man" (Eph. 4:22, 24).

1474. The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 5).

1478. An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and losing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the metis of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity (Indulgentarium Doctrina 5).

I am sorry, but section 1478 says you are wrong. It is the Catholic Church who grants indulgences, not God, and the indulgences are what frees the soul of the temporal effects of sin, not God's mercy.

 

[Photini]

Monica, please do not debate with people on TAW, it would be a shame for someone to get you banned agian...

have the EO ever had a council that has said the Toll House theory is heretical?

I really hope none of my fellow TAWers would report Monica. She's always well mannered and I've never gotten the vibe that she comes over here to purposely stir anything up. It's good to have OBOBers feel free to participate and keep it real when we are speculating about what they believe.

In regards to toll houses, there hasn't been any council on that, and I doubt there ever will.
Toll houses aren't a purifying process anyhow, so I don't see how it would be related to the RCC belief in purgatory.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I am sorry, but section 1478 says you are wrong. It is the Catholic Church who grants indulgences, not God, and the indulgences are what frees the soul of the temporal effects of sin, not God's mercy.

If I want to find out what the Orthodox believe, I would ask an Orthodox, not a Catholic. I think it would go both ways. It's very frustrating when non Catholics attempt to teach us what we believe. We know what we believe, that is why we believe it imagine if you saw a misrepresentation of Orthodoxy at OBOB (it's possible), came to clarify it, and I said - "no, these are not actually your beliefs". You might feel puzzled by this. I'm not saying I know everything about Catholic teachings, of course, I don't, but I tried my best to research and understand indulgences.

God gave the Church the ability to bind and lose. If indulgences are true, then God allowed them, and in that case they work only by His permission, and by His grace. If indulgences and Purgatory exist it's by God's mercy, not separate from it. This is actually a common Protestant misunderstanding.. they say the same thing about the Sacraments.. that because we think we're saved through the Sacraments, we don't believe in salvation by God's mercy. I'm sure you'd agree that's a misunderstanding, since His mercy and grace comes to us through the Sacraments. In the Catholic understanding, it's similar with indulgences.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks Photini,

well I think it would be best for me to leave this thread now, not even because I'm afraid of getting banned but because I dont find it good for me spiritually to debate topics like these. My intention in posting here before was not to debate Orthodoxy and convert you all to Catholicism but to clarify what Catholics believe on a certain issue (because sometimes we use different language and don't understand one another perfectly). I'm perfectly fine if people from TAW do the same thing at OBOB and I've seen it happen. God bless

 

[LinuxLurker01]

You seem to have good intentions, Monica, but all the clarifications in the world are not going to change the fact that there are major parts of Catholicism that we simply do not accept. I believe I've read previously that Michael was a RC seminarian at some point, so it seems strange to me to imply that perhaps he wouldn't understand basic Catholic principles...

 

[Michael G]

If I want to find out what the Orthodox believe, I would ask an Orthodox, not a Catholic. I think it would go both ways. It's very frustrating when non Catholics attempt to teach us what we believe. We know what we believe, that is why we believe it imagine if you saw a misrepresentation of Orthodoxy at OBOB (it's possible), came to clarify it, and I said - "no, these are not actually your beliefs". You might feel puzzled by this. I'm not saying I know everything about Catholic teachings, of course, I don't, but I tried my best to research and understand indulgences.

God gave the Church the ability to bind and lose. If indulgences are true, then God allowed them, and in that case they work only by His permission, and by His grace. If indulgences and Purgatory exist it's by God's mercy, not separate from it. This is actually a common Protestant misunderstanding.. they say the same thing about the Sacraments.. that because we think we're saved through the Sacraments, we don't believe in salvation by God's mercy. I'm sure you'd agree that's a misunderstanding, since His mercy and grace comes to us through the Sacraments. In the Catholic understanding, it's similar with indulgences.

Nice try. While in Roman Seminary, I had a one semester long class on the Catechism of the Catholic Church taught by a professor who alternated semesters between Rome and St. Vincent Seminary and who did a stint as rector of the seminary. I think I will trust what Fr. Kurt taught me about that book.

 

[Photini]

Also, and this is off the top of my head. Perhaps the two are not imcompatible, but it seems to me that the belief in indulgences could get in the way of Orthodox theology dealing with the Uncreated Energies of God.