Orthodox Priest on the dangers of Legalism and Selfish Spirituality

[The Liturgist]

I particularly liked the quote he thought was from St. Isaac the Syrian “God is not just, God is Love, if he were just I would be the first person condemned to Hell.

 

[Clare73]

I particularly liked the quote he thought was from St. Isaac the Syrian “God is not just, God is Love, if he were just I would be the first person condemned to Hell.

Kinda' confusing. . .is justice not one of the attributes of God?

Yes, God is love and God is just.

And his love had to satisfy his justice (on the cross) in order that he might give the mercy of his love.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Kinda' confusing. . .is justice not one of the attributes of God?

Yes, God is love and God is just.

And his love had to satisfy his justice (on the cross) in order that he might give the mercy of his love.

St Isaac also wrote: "You however have not been appointed to decree vengeance on men's deeds and works, but rather to ask mercy for the world, to keep vigil for the salvation of all, and to partake in every man's suffering, both the just and sinners.... you should make supplication [prayer] that God's mercy come upon him so that he may be changed and become conformed to God's will, and the he depart life in righteousness and not in retribution for iniquity. . . . Beseech God in behalf of sinners that they receive mercy. . . . Conquer evil men by your kind gentleness and make jealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."

A brother at Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you.’ So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him, seeing the trail of water behind him, and said, ‘What is this, Father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him.

 

[Clare73]

St Isaac also wrote: "You however have not been appointed to decree vengeance on men's deeds and works, but rather to ask mercy for the world, to keep vigil for the salvation of all, and to partake in every man's suffering, both the just and sinners.... you should make supplication [prayer] that God's mercy come upon him so that he may be changed and become conformed to God's will, and the he depart life in righteousness and not in retribution for iniquity. . . . Beseech God in behalf of sinners that they receive mercy. . . . Conquer evil men by your kind gentleness and make jealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."

A brother at Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you.’ So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him, seeing the trail of water behind him, and said, ‘What is this, Father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him.

And again. . .is justice not one of the attributes of God (Ro 3:25)?

Should the Orthodox priest have more understanding of Biblical doctrine?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

This is where Orthodox focus on God's mercy. At the beginning of the Orthodox Matins service, six penitential Psalms are read (3, 38, 63, 88, 103, and 143).

There is also a tradition in the Church which says the Six Psalms will be read to each of us by our guardian angels at the Last Judgment, and during the time of the reading the whole world will be judged. Ideally, the Psalms are read in the dark, "so that we, able to see nothing with our eyes, might listen to the Six Psalms attentively and with fear [of God] and so that everyone standing in the dark might shed a tear and release a tender sigh. For at night, and if there is no lighted candle nearby, it is difficult for people to see one another. It is for this reason that the ustav (rubric) directs: thus we pronounce the Six Psalms with all attentiveness and fear of God, as conversing with our invisible Christ God Himself, and praying over our sins." - Archbishop Benjamin

We know that Christ will return as judge and therefore we have only one prayer. Kyrie Elesion. Yarab burham. Gospodi pomilui. Lord have mercy.

The Hexapsalmos ends with

Hearken unto me, O Lord, in Thy righteousness, and enter not into judgment with Thy servant.
Hearken unto me, O Lord, in Thy righteousness, and enter not into judgment with Thy servant.

Thy good Spirit shall lead me in the land of uprightness.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia. Glory to Thee, O God. Thrice, with the sign of the Cross and a bow each time.

.

 

[Clare73]

This is where Orthodox focus on God's mercy. At the beginning of the Orthodox Matins service, six penitential Psalms are read (3, 38, 63, 88, 103, and 143).
There is also a tradition in the Church which says the Six Psalms will be read to each of us by our guardian angels at the Last Judgment, and during the time of the reading the whole world will be judged. Ideally, the Psalms are read in the dark, "so that we, able to see nothing with our eyes, might listen to the Six Psalms attentively and with fear [of God] and so that everyone standing in the dark might shed a tear and release a tender sigh. For at night, and if there is no lighted candle nearby, it is difficult for people to see one another. It is for this reason that the ustav (rubric) directs: thus we pronounce the Six Psalms with all attentiveness and fear of God, as conversing with our invisible Christ God Himself, and praying over our sins." - Archbishop Benjamin

We know that Christ will return as judge

Which is most pertinent to his mercy now.

and therefore we have only one prayer. Kyrie Elesion. Yarab burham. Gospodi pomilui. Lord have mercy.
The Hexapsalmos ends with
Hearken unto me, O Lord, in Thy righteousness, and enter not into judgment with Thy servant.
Hearken unto me, O Lord, in Thy righteousness, and enter not into judgment with Thy servant.
Thy good Spirit shall lead me in the land of uprightness.
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia. Glory to Thee, O God. Thrice, with the sign of the Cross and a bow each time.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

BTW, we do not believe that Jesus suffered to satisfy the Father's need for justice aka penal substitution. As the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is read in every Orthodox church on Pascha:

Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

 

[The Liturgist]

Which is most pertinent to his mercy now.

God is just, but even Calvinists would agree that He desires not the death of a sinner, and that his justice is effectively escaped through faith in Jesus Christ.

I recall hearing a Protestant pastor preach a sermon along the specific theme of what St. Isaac is saying, basically, that Hell is perfectly just and deserved by all of us, but God desires that we have eternal life with Him in the World to Come, and thus through faith in our Lord we can be saved.**

In other words, love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution.

Additionally, the doctrines of penal substitutionary atonement or satisfaction atonement we find in John Calvin and Anselm of Canterbury were totally unknown to the early church, and were never accepted in the Eastern churches (EO, OO, RC), where indeed in the specific case of some of the Eastern Orthodox churches, either a Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lukaris, or someone posing as him*, wrote letters embracing Calvinist theology, the specifics of it were anathematized by a local council, the Synod of Dositheus, convened by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem and attended by several other Patriarchs of autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches. They believed, especially the Theopaschites who came to dominate over the Apthartodocetae despite Emperor Justinian favoring the latter, that Christ, who is God, defeated death by becoming incarnate, dying and resurrecting, by making Himself a sacrifice, trampling down death by death, and bestowing life on those who were dead. This included saving anyone in Hades who wished it, and would be inclined to hear Christ, for example, the righteous of Israel and the gentile nations.

But aside from the proto-Universalists like Origen and some In the Church of the East and also those who believed in some form of Apokatastasis, such as St. Gregory of Nyssa, the early church generally believed that evil people would not be able to tolerate being in the presence of God and would refuse salvation. Thus in a sense the Outer Darkness is a mercy for the evil and depraved, in that it spares them from divine wrath, which is not anger, since God is impassable and immutable, but rather the experience of Divine Love and Grace when one is in opposition to God.

To understand fully Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and to a large extent Assyrian soteriology, this lecture by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, is helpful:

*This latter option was historically favored, likely due to the moral principle of Nil ni si bonum (of the dead let no ill be spoken), which was particularly salient because the Ottoman Sultan had Patriarch Cyril strangled for unknown reasons. This happened occasionally during Turkocratia, where the Sultans would execute or assassinate church leaders they felt threatened by, or in some cases due to corruption or other sordid dealings of the sort attracted by the depraved government of the Sublime Porte (the Ottoman monarchy, Janissaries, bureaucracy and system of government, which takes its name from the splendid entrance to Topkapi Palace, a much more lavish rebuilding of the Byzantine Imperial palace known as the Bucoleon).

** While the Orthodox are not Sola Fide, they are also very anti-Pelagian, following the refutation of Pelagius by St. John Cassian initially more universally adopted by the early church than that of St. Augustine, in which, contrary to Augustinian doctrine, sin is inherited but not transmitted like a venereal disease: this eliminates the necessity for a doctrine like the Immaculate Conception, because the Blessed Virgin Mary could avoid committing sins herself but would still inherit the debt of ancestral sin, and is saved by Christ as much as anyone else. However, in the Western Church, St. Augustine overtook St. John Cassian, and eventually all other Patristic figures in popularity, and this results in a skewed notion of what the early church believed, since many of St. Augustine’s ideas were not widely held by either the Roman church or its Greek, Syrian and other Eastern counterparts for the first few centuries after his death.

Indeed the only distinctly Roman practice that existed then that still exists now in the Roman Rite and other Latin rites like the Ambrosian, but not in most of the Eastern Catholic churches or the Anglican Ordinariates, is clerical celibacy for priests (but not permanent deacons or lectors). In the Eastern churches historically only bishops are celibate, and occasionally there have been married bishops (very rare), married Chorepiscopi (Choir bishops, who have limited abilities to ordain people to minor orders like Reader, but not to the major orders of Subdeacon, Deacon, Priest or Bishop, and who are essentially glorified archpriests or protopresbyters) are common in some of the Oriental churches, for example, in the Church of the East and among the St. Thomas Christians in India.

 

[The Liturgist]

BTW, we do not believe that Jesus suffered to satisfy the Father's need for justice aka penal substitution. As the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is read in every Orthodox church on Pascha:

Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

Indeed, the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is the greatest Paschal Homily, even better than that of St. Athanasius that the Copts use, on account of its brevity, doctrinal richness and emotional power. Since improving upon it is unlikely, the Eastern Orthodox reuse it every Pascha, whereas the Coptic Orthodox fortunately preserve the still very beautiful prayer of St. Athanasius, and the Syriac Orthodox priests write their own homilies, which is fitting given that the West Syriac rite gives priests enormous flexibility, with nearly 90 Eucharistic prayers, and variable elements within those prayers and other liturgical services such as Vespers and Matins, for example, a choice between different prayers of the form known as the Husoyo, as our friend @coorilose can attest.

St. Chrysostom is also known for preaching at length, which he tended to do at the ninth hour, which I rather like; I think long sermons should happen in the Divine Office, ideally in the Hours, which are by themselves extremely short, rather than at Matins, Vespers or Compline, which might take too long, whereas Eucharistic homilies should be compact and mystical as opposed to cerebral, but still rational, since in all cases we are obliged to serve Reason, which is one of the meanings of the Logos, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God we know as Jesus Christ through His incarnation (John 1:1-17, which is the second of two Gospels read at the Eastern Orthodox Paschal liturgy, during the Eucharist, the first being the shorter ending of Mark during the part of the liturgy known as Paschal Matins.*


*For those interested in a liturgical excursus: in the Byzantine Rite as used by the Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Melkite Catholics, etc, there are seven Resurrection Gospels which are read at Matins on a repeating cycle that begin with the ending of Mark, and include lessons from the four Gospels, starting on Pascha, and one of these are read at Matins on a seven week cycle on most Sundays throughout the year, occasionally there being a proper Gospel which is read instead if memory serves. This is in addition to and separate from the eight week cycle of Tones (Modes, like in Gregorian chant), each of which has its own hymns which are the default except, for example, during Lent or Eastertide, when the hymnals known as the Triodion and Pentecostarion are used, and on feast days fixed to a specific date like the Transfiguration, the Dormition of the Theotokos, the Exaltation of the Cross, Christmas, or Theophany, when the Menaion is used. Specifically how these hymns are integrated is controlled bY a rule book known as the Typikon, of which there is the traditional Studite-Sabaite Typikon, originally used in monasteries, and used today by the Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian, Belarussian and certain other churches, such as ROCOR, and the monasteries on Mount Athos, and I think the Jerusalem Patriarchate, or at least the Holy Sepulchre, an older version of this that is used by the Russian Old Rite Orthodox or Old Believers (changing the Typikon and the way the sign of the cross was made caused a radical change in the appearance of Russian Orthodox services, causing a schism which has sadly only partially healed), and the Violakis Typikon, a greatly simplified set of rules used by most Greek Orthodox, and the Antiochians, and this was in theory inspired by the old Cathedral Typikon used at Hagia Sophia until the Venetian invasion in 1204, but actually the Cathedral Typikon was quite different.

The interesting thing about the Typikon is that it the Studite-Sabaite Typikon used by the Athonite monks and the more traditional Orthodox churches like the Serbians and ROCOR, is that it repeats on a 537 year cycle, so essentially no two Orthodox liturgies one might attend in ones life would be identical. This is because there are several different ways the fixed feasts, the movable feasts, and the ordinary Sundays and weekdays after the end of the Pentecostarion the Sunday after All Saints Day (the second Sunday after Pentecost) interact with each other, and the eight week cycle of hymns in the Octoechos, and the seven week cycle of Resurrection Gospels. Thus simple rules combine to create a complex system.

However, most of this complexity goes into Matins, which is either celebrated along with Vespers, Compline and Prime at All Night Vigils, which due to abbreviations takes two and a half hours, or is celebrated before the liturgy where it takes an hour, again due to abbreviations. The Russians and Ukrainians often do All Night Vigils every Saturday evening (which becomes Sunday on liturgical time as soon as Vespers happens), while Greeks and Romanians like to do a shorter one hour Vespers or on occasion a slightly longer Great Vespers, and then Orthros (Matins) before the Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy, the principle Eucharistic service, is highly invariant in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, with fewer parts changing than in the Roman missal or especially the old Gallican liturgies such as the Mozarabic Rite, where the entire Mass can be radically altered by changes in the propers from Sunday to Sunday. There are fewer propers that influence the Divine Liturgy, but they do exist, for example, the Scripture lessons, certain hymns, and whether to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or the longer Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, or a Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, or the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory.

 

[Clare73]

God is just, but even Calvinists would agree that He desires not the death of a sinner, and that his justice is effectively escaped through faith in Jesus Christ.

By which I know you mean his justice is satisfied/paid, not that we "escape" it, anymore than we "escape" jail by paying our traffic fine.
Damnation and jail are avoided, not by escaping justice, but by complying with justice's requirements.

I recall hearing a Protestant pastor preach a sermon along the specific theme of what St. Isaac is saying, basically, that Hell is perfectly just and deserved by all of us, but God desires that we have eternal life with Him in the World to Come, and thus through faith in our Lord we can be saved.**

In other words, love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution.

You don't think that Justice--impartially giving everyone what he is owed, not playing favorites--is not as important to God as Love?
Would you want to live where there is no justice?
If love rejoices with the truth, it certainly rejoices with justice (which is practice of truth, giving each what he is owed).

 

[Mark Quayle]

And again. . .is justice not one of the attributes of God (Ro 3:25)?

Should the Orthodox priest have more understanding of Biblical doctrine?

I try to avoid it, but I'm guilty of doing the same kind of thing sometimes. I hope I don't go so far as to contradict scripture or good solid doctrine, like he does. But I don't think he doubts God is just. He's just trying to make a point, and it's a good point. But there are better ways to make it.

What bothers me is when someone comes up with a self-made "this is how things fit together" of their own derivation, to the point where they have to contradict Scripture, or render the text inappropriately. I'm guessing the Orthodox priest didn't mean to do that, but just to make the point, he is trying to present a softer side of God. As even the Bible says, "mercy triumphs over judgment." But yeah, I agree, he is putting together a line of thinking that is not presenting both sides of the coin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@The Liturgist said:
I recall hearing a Protestant pastor preach a sermon along the specific theme of what St. Isaac is saying, basically, that Hell is perfectly just and deserved by all of us, but God desires that we have eternal life with Him in the World to Come, and thus through faith in our Lord we can be saved.**

In other words, love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution.

By which I know you mean his justice is satisfied/paid, not that we "escape" it, anymore than we "escape" jail by paying our traffic fine.
Damnation and jail are avoided, not by escaping justice, but by complying with justice's requirements.

You don't think that Justice--impartially giving everyone what he is owed, not playing favorites--is not as important to God as Love?
Would you want to live where there is no justice?
If love rejoices with the truth, it certainly rejoices with justice (which is practice of truth, giving each what he is owed).

The "Simplicity of God" says that God is not made of parts. His justice is not without his mercy, and vice versa. While Scripture says "Mercy triumphs over judgement.", it doesn't quite say it triumphs over justice. I don't think one is more important than the other; his full justice was taken out upon his Son, instead of upon his undeserving Elect. If this was a strategic game, one could say he made an astounding move there, without violating any of the rules of the game.

 

[Clare73]

I try to avoid it, but I'm guilty of doing the same kind of thing sometimes. I hope I don't go so far as to contradict scripture or good solid doctrine, like he does. But I don't think he doubts God is just. He's just trying to make a point, and it's a good point. But there are better ways to make it.

What bothers me is when someone comes up with a self-made "this is how things fit together" of their own derivation, to the point where they have to contradict Scripture, or render the text inappropriately. I'm guessing the Orthodox priest didn't mean to do that, but just to make the point, he is trying to present a softer side of God. As even the Bible says, "mercy triumphs over judgment." But yeah, I agree, he is putting together a line of thinking that is not presenting both sides of the coin.

Mercy triumphs over judgment, but not without paying the price of justice, on the cross, where justice was satisfied in order that mercy could triumph.

I see the justice of God as the "governing" attribute, because all must be in conformity with it, including love and mercy.
It is not justice that conforms to love and mercy, it is love and mercy that conform to justice.
There is no mercy that has not been bought and paid for to justice, at a high price.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

You aren't seeing the entire picture of Orthodox belief. On the Sunday of the Last Judgement, we are reminded of what we will face on the last day.

When Thou shalt come, O most righteous Judge, * to execute the just
judgment, * seated on Thy throne of glory, * the frightening river of fire will
draw all mankind * before Thy judgment seat; * the heavenly powers will stand
beside Thee, * and in fear mankind will be judged according to the deeds that
each has done. * With faith we entreat Thee O Christ, * since Thou art
compassionate * spare us then, and grant us a place among those who are saved.

The books will be opened * and the deeds of all mankind will be revealed *
before the dread judgment seat; * the whole vale of sorrow shall echo * with the
fearful and despairing sounds of lamentation, * at seeing all who have sinned
being sent by Thy just judgment * to everlasting torment, weeping in vain. *
Therefore we beseech Thee, O compassionate One: * Spare us who hymn Thy
praises, ** for Thou alone art plenteous in mercy.

The trumpets shall sound and the tombs shall be emptied, * and all mankind
shall be raised in trembling. * Those that have done good shall rejoice in
gladness, * awaiting to receive their reward; * those that have sinned shall
tremble and in grief lament, * as they are separated from the chosen and sent to
torment. * O Lord of glory, be merciful to us as Thou art compassionate, ** and
grant us to dwell * with those that have loved Thee.

I lament and weep when I contemplate the eternal fire, * the outer darkness
and Tatar, * the dread worm and the unceasing gnashing of teeth, * and the
anguish that shall befall those who have sinned immeasurably, * by their
wickedness arousing Thee to anger O supremely good One. * Among them I,
the miserable one, am first: ** But, O Judge in Thy mercy save me, for Thou art
lovingly compassionate.

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist said:
I recall hearing a Protestant pastor preach a sermon along the specific theme of what St. Isaac is saying, basically, that Hell is perfectly just and deserved by all of us, but God desires that we have eternal life with Him in the World to Come, and thus through faith in our Lord we can be saved.**

In other words, love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution.

The "Simplicity of God" says that God is not made of parts. His justice is not without his mercy, and vice versa. While Scripture says "Mercy triumphs over judgement.", it doesn't quite say it triumphs over justice. I don't think one is more important than the other; his full justice was taken out upon his Son, instead of upon his undeserving Elect. If this was a strategic game, one could say he made an astounding move there, without violating any of the rules of the game.

The problems with your argument are that no one made it before Anselm of Canterbury, or in the exact form you use, the early Reformed churches, and also that it unwittingly contradicts either the Simplicity of God or the doctrine of the Trinity and of the Incarnation, on this basis:

The Son of God is fully God. Therefore, while you could argue that God took out His full justice on Himself in the person of the Son, it cannot be said to be a case of the Son being chastised for our sins by the angry Father, for as Christ Himself said, “a house divided against itself cannot stand.” The doctrine of the Trinity is that all three divine Persons are equally God, so one person punishing another even consensually as a vicarous penal substitute contradicts this, it contradicts the principle of God is Love, also stated by Christ, it contradicts the unity of the divine essence between God the Father and God the Son, in that as the Incarnate Logos said, “I and the Father are one.”

It also clashes with my preferred triadological-soteriological model, which was expressed by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in the book The Orthodox Way as God being an eternal union of perfect love shared by three persons united into one being, the Son begotten by the unoriginate Father and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, but all three are God, and furthermore, since Christ commands us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect, it represents a model for life that we are called to make our lives an icon of, in our relations with our family, our neighbor, our fellow members of the Church, and all of humanity insofar as this is possible, which is why I use the famous icon that symbolizes the Trinity (but does not depict it) by Amdrei Rublev as my avatar - the Trinity cannot be depicted because Eastern Orthodox canon law and Oriental Orthodox canon law and the tradition of both churches prohibits icons that depict the Father, since the Father is seen only through the Son (some icons exist in violation of this, and some icons exist which appear to violate this but actually depict Christ Pantocrator as seen by Isaiah as the Ancient of Days, which we can assert was the Son based on other verses).

And this also stresses why the relatively recent doctrinal innovation of penal substitutionary atonement and its predecessor, the Satisfaction Theology of St. Anselm of Canterbury, is such a problem, because it is through the only begotten Son and Word of God that we can perceive the Father. However, the Son is fully God.

I have to confess a preference for the names God the Son, and also the Son of Man, and the Divine Logos, in reference to Christ Jesus, and am greatly comforted when the liturgy says things like the Eastern Orthodox Divine Office “Come, let us fall down and worship Christ our God.” When people only talk about Jesus Christ as the Son of God, which is a preference of most Western liturgical texts, I lament to note, although not as problematic as the filioque-implicit phrase “in the unity of the Holy Spirit”, although such a phrase is admittedly used together with a reference to the Father and the Son to convey the Trinity,I feel that there is a risk of inadvertently slipping into a psuedo-Arian mindset, even if one fully avows and affirms the Trinity. And this in turn leads to thinking of Jesus Christ and God the Father separately, when in fact they are distinct but entirely inseparable, since they share the divine nature of the Father and are coequal, coeternal and fully God. Jesus Christ is also fully human, and his humanity and divinity exist without change, confusion or division, in a state of hypostatic union.

Thus we can assert, as Fr. John Behr did, that God died on the cross in order to show us what it means to be human, in his 2008 lecture The Shocking Truth of Orthodoxy.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

You don't think that Justice--impartially giving everyone what he is owed, not playing favorites--is not as important to God as Love?
Would you want to live where there is no justice?
If love rejoices with the truth, it certainly rejoices with justice (which is practice of truth, giving each what he is owed).

Is the opening paragraphs of Johnathon Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" what you desire?

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours.​

​

You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else that you did not got to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God provoking his pure eye by your sinful, wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.​

 

[IoanC]

100% religious laxism + humanism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problems with your argument are that no one made it before Anselm of Canterbury, or in the exact form you use, the early Reformed churches, and also that it unwittingly contradicts either the Simplicity of God or the doctrine of the Trinity and of the Incarnation, on this basis:

The Son of God is fully God. Therefore, while you could argue that God took out His full justice on Himself in the person of the Son, it cannot be said to be a case of the Son being chastised for our sins by the angry Father, for as Christ Himself said, “a house divided against itself cannot stand.” The doctrine of the Trinity is that all three divine Persons are equally God, so one person punishing another even consensually as a vicarous penal substitute contradicts this, it contradicts the principle of God is Love, also stated by Christ, it contradicts the unity of the divine essence between God the Father and God the Son, in that as the Incarnate Logos said, “I and the Father are one.”

It also clashes with my preferred triadological-soteriological model, which was expressed by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in the book The Orthodox Way as God being an eternal union of perfect love shared by three persons united into one being, the Son begotten by the unoriginate Father and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, but all three are God, and furthermore, since Christ commands us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect, it represents a model for life that we are called to make our lives an icon of, in our relations with our family, our neighbor, our fellow members of the Church, and all of humanity insofar as this is possible, which is why I use the famous icon that symbolizes the Trinity (but does not depict it) by Amdrei Rublev as my avatar - the Trinity cannot be depicted because Eastern Orthodox canon law and Oriental Orthodox canon law and the tradition of both churches prohibits icons that depict the Father, since the Father is seen only through the Son (some icons exist in violation of this, and some icons exist which appear to violate this but actually depict Christ Pantocrator as seen by Isaiah as the Ancient of Days, which we can assert was the Son based on other verses).

And this also stresses why the relatively recent doctrinal innovation of penal substitutionary atonement and its predecessor, the Satisfaction Theology of St. Anselm of Canterbury, is such a problem, because it is through the only begotten Son and Word of God that we can perceive the Father. However, the Son is fully God.

I have to confess a preference for the names God the Son, and also the Son of Man, and the Divine Logos, in reference to Christ Jesus, and am greatly comforted when the liturgy says things like the Eastern Orthodox Divine Office “Come, let us fall down and worship Christ our God.” When people only talk about Jesus Christ as the Son of God, which is a preference of most Western liturgical texts, I lament to note, although not as problematic as the filioque-implicit phrase “in the unity of the Holy Spirit”, although such a phrase is admittedly used together with a reference to the Father and the Son to convey the Trinity,I feel that there is a risk of inadvertently slipping into a psuedo-Arian mindset, even if one fully avows and affirms the Trinity. And this in turn leads to thinking of Jesus Christ and God the Father separately, when in fact they are distinct but entirely inseparable, since they share the divine nature of the Father and are coequal, coeternal and fully God. Jesus Christ is also fully human, and his humanity and divinity exist without change, confusion or division, in a state of hypostatic union.

Thus we can assert, as Fr. John Behr did, that God died on the cross in order to show us what it means to be human, in his 2008 lecture The Shocking Truth of Orthodoxy.

I'm going to try to reduce the argument quite a bit, including your objections, a bit for the sake of brevity and clarity.

The Liturgist said:
In other words, love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution.

Mark Quayle said:
The "Simplicity of God" says that God is not made of parts. His justice is not without his mercy, and vice versa. While Scripture says "Mercy triumphs over judgement.", it doesn't quite say it triumphs over justice. I don't think one is more important than the other; his full justice was taken out upon his Son, instead of upon his undeserving Elect. If this was a strategic game, one could say he made an astounding move there, without violating any of the rules of the game.

The Liturgist said:
The problems with your argument are...that it unwittingly contradicts either the Simplicity of God or the doctrine of the Trinity and of the Incarnation, on this basis:
The Son of God is fully God. Therefore, while you could argue that God took out His full justice on Himself in the person of the Son, it cannot be said to be a case of the Son being chastised for our sins by the angry Father, for as Christ Himself said, “a house divided against itself cannot stand.” The doctrine of the Trinity is that all three divine Persons are equally God, so one person punishing another even consensually as a vicarous penal substitute contradicts this, it contradicts the principle of God is Love, also stated by Christ, it contradicts the unity of the divine essence between God the Father and God the Son, in that as the Incarnate Logos said, “I and the Father are one.”

First, I want to say that, for the sake of argument, I had ignored the word 'retribution' in your statement that "love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution", as distinct from 'justice'.

Second, it is perhaps relevant that I had intended my remarks as a commentary or addition to what @Clare73 had written, and not directly against your statement that "love and forgiveness are more important to God than retribution".

Third, I will admit your statement is 'empirically' valid in what we see God doing for our sakes —that is, that God has NOT assessed his judgement upon us; he has not treated us as we deserve, so from the point of view of the redeemed, God has shown love above his demonstration of retribution.

(But enough with the numbers). I'm not entirely sure I followed your argument that what I had said in some sense contradicted the Simplicity of God and/or the Doctrine of the Trinity. That is, I don't see how Penal Substitution objects to the Simplicity of God and the Doctrine of the Trinity, any more than your statement that "God took out his full justice on Himself in the person of the Son".

I'll leave it there for now, (though there are other objections you have, that I also did not follow well), except to mention that while what I believe may not have been formally stated before your referenced beginnings of the Penal Substitution Theory —I only intended what is written in Scripture:

"But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

 

[Clare73]

The problems with your argument are that no one made it before Anselm

Does not the NT make that argument?

Death is the penalty of sin (Ro 6:23),
the death of all the animal sacrifices--the pattern for the true atoning sacrifice--was penalty for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43),
Christ died as the sin offering penalty for our sins (Ro 8:3, 1 Co 15:3-4, 2 Co 5:21),
he was delivered over to (the penalty of) death for our sin Ro 4:25).

Does not the "Gospel of Isaiah" 43. . .v. 5 (as in Lk 23:16, 22), 10, etc. make that argument. . .or the Messianic Psalm 22?

of Canterbury, or in the exact form you use, the early Reformed churches, and also that it unwittingly contradicts either the Simplicity of God or the doctrine of the Trinity and of the Incarnation, on this basis:

The Son of God is fully God. Therefore, while you could argue that God took out His full justice on Himself in the person of the Son, it cannot be said to be a case of the Son being chastised for our sins by the angry Father, for as Christ Himself said, “a house divided against itself cannot stand.”

Is the house divided when the Son is in agreement with the Father's will?

The doctrine of the Trinity is that all three divine Persons are equally God, so one person punishing another even consensually as a vicarous penal substitute contradicts this,

Is that in agreement with the NT. . .some of it presented here?

it contradicts the principle of God is Love,

Or does it demonstrate that principle. . .in that God would sacrifice his only begotten Son for the sake of his adopted sons?

also stated by Christ, it contradicts the unity of the divine essence between God the Father and God the Son, in that as the Incarnate Logos said, “I and the Father are one.”
It also clashes with my preferred triadological-soteriological model, which was expressed by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in the book The Orthodox Way as God being an eternal union of perfect love shared by three persons united into one being, the Son begotten by the unoriginate Father and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, but all three are God, and furthermore, since Christ commands us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect, it represents a model for life that we are called to make our lives an icon of, in our relations with our family, our neighbor, our fellow members of the Church, and all of humanity insofar as this is possible, which is why I use the famous icon that symbolizes the Trinity (but does not depict it) by Amdrei Rublev as my avatar - the Trinity cannot be depicted because Eastern Orthodox canon law and Oriental Orthodox canon law and the tradition of both churches prohibits icons that depict the Father, since the Father is seen only through the Son (some icons exist in violation of this, and some icons exist which appear to violate this but actually depict Christ Pantocrator as seen by Isaiah as the Ancient of Days, which we can assert was the Son based on other verses).

And this also stresses why the relatively recent doctrinal innovation of penal substitutionary atonement and its predecessor, the Satisfaction Theology of St. Anselm of Canterbury, is such a problem, because it is through the only begotten Son and Word of God that we can perceive the Father. However, the Son is fully God.

Did Anselm consider the OT sacrifices which were the pattern of Christ's atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25), where the OT sacrifices were penalty for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43)?

Do you think Anselm trumps Scripture?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Liturgist said:
it contradicts the principle of God is Love,

Or does it demonstrate it. . .in that he would sacrifice his only begotten Son for his adopted sons?

And, in that through this means, his only begotten Son would acquire his Bride.