Ordained Pastor? No really?

[eldermike]

The Pastoral Epistles are 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and also Titus. These books were written too Pastors. The word pastor means flock leader, head elder. It is sometimes confused with "preacher". Pastors are called to preach but not all "preachers" are called to lead a flock (pastor), some are pure Evangelist'. Since there is no flock for a TV pastor, then they are actually "preachers. A good example of this is Paul, He called himself a preacher. Timothy was a pastor, so was James and others, they lead a flock of Believers. Preaching is only one duty of a Pastor.

Strictly speaking all preachers preach the same thing. "Paul told Timothy to preach no other doctrine than the one I gave you."

We have the word of God for the purpose of never being tricked by a preacher. All preaching should line up with Gods word.

God chooses Pastors, they are called. In my denomination they are ordained by a flock. There is no requirement for education although most have at least a BA in ministry. But, it's not required in my denomination.

Blessings

 

[Dewjunkie]

Coastie,

I understand your frustration, I share it with you. My personal irritation is with Jerry Falwell and his off the cuff remarks that I believe many times stem from his own personal feelings instead of a Christ-like love for fellow humans. It saddens me that so many people won't give Christianity a chance because of the bad name it has gotten in the media. Do you think the media did any stories about the many Christians from my church who came over and donated countless hours of their time after their jobs and on their days off to help me remodel my house to make it handicap accesible for my wife? Of course not, that wouldn't get them ratings.

I think the problem now is that with the advent of so many non-demoninational churches, there isn't any kind of "check system" for ordination. If a single church has no ties to any other Bible believing body, and ordains ministers as they see fit, then who determines the criteria? And who's to say that the criteria won't change when the next ordinand comes to board? That's how we get so many "Christian" ministers who don't have any full understanding about the scriptures or theology or Biblical history. There also some groups who "ordain" people who are going to study for the ministry. So because they intend to study the Bible, they get to call themselves ordained.

My father is an ordained Nazarene pastor. He attended Nazarene Bible College in Colorado Springs for 3 years. (The Nazarene Church also has a Seminary in Kansas City, MO.) He had to take many Bible courses, church history, speech, world literature, church administration, counseling, psychology, courses on other denominations and religions, just to name a few. Graduating from college did NOT automatically get him ordained. In the Nazarene church, a person wishing to be ordained has to be nominated by the ordination board (usually 11-13 other ministers who grill them for 2 days), prove they have the knowledge, and then the District Assembly (which is reperesentatives from every church on the district) has to vote for acceptance. If ANYONE in the Assembly thinks that the person is not fit for ministry, they can raise an issue and have it investigated. Once the Assembly has accepted the nomination, the General Superintendent who oversees the Assembly makes the final decision. Once ordained, a person can lose his or her ordination at any time for amoral conduct, un-Biblical teachings, etc. My mom is an Ordained Deacon, she had to study the same things as my dad, but she did it through home study. She still had to go through the same process for ordination when she completed the study. But, as a Deacon, she cannot be a head pastor of a church except in emergency situations. My mom is a Minister of Music.

As long as there are people who call themselves Christians, but refuse to be Christ-like, we are going to face these concerns and frustrations. People who go to Mass on easter and Christmas call themselves Catholic. People who only darken the door of a church on Christmas, Easter, or when they need something call themselves Christians. It is sad, and it will always be a hinderance in the work of God.

 

[Blessed-one]

How can Christians be heard without the voistrous minority of extremists and extreme Left Winger Christians nullifying our efforts?

i think we see the difference between Christians and Catholics, at least they're organised enough to get one interpretation of the bible (right?) and they have a head to sort things out whereas we don't.

but i don't think we should be too concerned about it, eventually the real things of Christianity will come out. False teachings won't stand to time and questions, and don't you think God will deal with whoever that's spreading lies about Him?

i think the answer lies in witnessing and showing love to others. If we called up the false preacher, it's just going to attract more media attention and who knows what will happen? or we may have a great bible debate.... um.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by coastie
My problem is with the one's who use the title but are not in fact teaching God's word.

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

 

[coastie]

Yes, Education and witnessing is the all-encompassing answer. It always is and always will be. But you have a really good point Blessed-one. Christians nitpicking little differeneces between denominations is counter-productive to the over-all goal to winning souls for God.

I figure with our current media and resources to get the word of God out, we could be more productive in our education of the uneducated (for lack of better rhetoric).

I prefer to not take a passive approach (not implying that you are). I think that this should be dealt with aggressively because this is warfare. I am not suggesting a state of iron fisted Christian rulers, but that Christians need to really start getting out there and not relying on a rare missionary or evangelist to educate the unbelieving on Jesus' gospel of LOVE.

Christianity prophesied to win, but that is no reason to non-chalantly say "we should just witness to others and trust in God". We should do that and push it to the next level. We need to show love instead of condemnation. We need to cease with the complaining about the liberal-this and anti-Christian that and change it.

I think that with all of the beating that Christians have taken in this country over the last twenty-odd years, we need a serious pep-talk.

Zach

 

[coastie]

I understand your frustration, I share it with you. My personal irritation is with Jerry Falwell and his off the cuff remarks that I believe many times stem from his own personal feelings instead of a Christ-like love for fellow humans.

And then there are others that just agree with him out of a knee jerk reaction. I have no doubt that he is a great man, and he has won many hearts for God, and he does teach love, but the media capitalizes on mistakes and/or contextual misrepresentation.

It saddens me that so many people won't give Christianity a chance because of the bad name it has gotten in the media.

No way. Christians are the bad guys and any opposer of Christianity is wise, unbiased, and loving.

BLECK

I think the problem now is that with the advent of so many non-demoninational churches, there isn't any kind of "check system" for ordination.... then who determines the criteria? And who's to say that the criteria won't change when the next ordinand comes to board? .....There also some groups who "ordain" people who are going to study for the ministry. So because they intend to study the Bible, they get to call themselves ordained.

I agree with that paragraph in it's entirety, except for the non-denominational movement. I see no problem with that. I see some stupid mistakes made and I see some pastors making up some ridiculous new ploys to attract new members. I was originally Lutheran, I liked the order and discipline, then I attended soem other denominations and felt unproductive. Currently I am in a non-denominatinal church that is very basic, serious, and mentally stimulating. All teaching is taught with the Bible. The pastor doesn't go on long winded screaming fits about this and that but wrather reads scripture then expands by cross-referencing with other scripture.

By and large, I see the non-denominational movement actually moving toward becoming a denomination or (best case scenario) actually serving in some capacity to unify biblical denominations, by exposing a need for organization in the protestant branches.

As for ordaining, thank you. I am familiar with the proccess, I have Pastors (of a couple different denominations) in my family. I've had a pretty good taste of different denominations and seldom find one who's doctrine I adimately disagree with.

As long as there are people who call themselves Christians, but refuse to be Christ-like, we are going to face these concerns and frustrations. People who go to Mass on easter and Christmas call themselves Catholic. People who only darken the door of a church on Christmas, Easter, or when they need something call themselves Christians. It is sad, and it will always be a hinderance in the work of God.

Yes, but, like I eluded to in my previous post, I believe this problem goes beyond this.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by eldermike
The Pastoral Epistles are 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and also Titus. These books were written too Pastors. The word pastor means flock leader, head elder. It is sometimes confused with "preacher". Pastors are called to preach but not all "preachers" are called to lead a flock (pastor), some are pure Evangelist'. Since there is no flock for a TV pastor, then they are actually "preachers. A good example of this is Paul, He called himself a preacher. Timothy was a pastor, so was James and others, they lead a flock of Believers. Preaching is only one duty of a Pastor.

Strictly speaking all preachers preach the same thing. "Paul told Timothy to preach no other doctrine than the one I gave you."

We have the word of God for the purpose of never being tricked by a preacher. All preaching should line up with Gods word.

God chooses Pastors, they are called. In my denomination they are ordained by a flock. There is no requirement for education although most have at least a BA in ministry. But, it's not required in my denomination.

Blessings

What denomination are you?  Just curious because I was under the impression that only Presbyterians had Elders.  I am PCA.

Anyone can be a pastor, qualification for said job varies from denom to denom.  The Rev. Jesse Jackson started his own church, thus he is a Rev.  Do I agree with this practice?  NO!  My denom has strict guidelines.  To be a pastor in the PCA you have to work hard, prove yourself and spend many years in Seminary.  As it should be.

 

[Dewjunkie]

coastie,

I wasn't at all bashing non-denominational churches. We have an excellent one in our secluded little berg, and they do wonderful things. I have no doubt that a church can be spirit-filled and winning lost souls without a demoninational name on the door. My use of the referrence was to imply that without a standard set of rules governing the process and requirements for ordination, just about anyone can find a place to get ordained.

Also, you are correct that the problems run much deeper than my few points, but without mass revival, we can't possibly begin to solve even the simplest ones.

 

[eldermike]

What denomination are you? Just curious because I was under the impression that only Presbyterians had Elders. I am PCA.

I am Southern Baptist. I am an ordained Elder. Many Baptist's churches call leaders Elders, some call all leaders Elders, some have Elders and Deacons. It depends on how they see the word Bishop, mostly from 1'st Tim.

As far as requirments for formal education I believe that most seacrh committees have requirments for a degree in ministry but it's left to the local church. As Paul told Timothy; choose men with the following requirments................(no need to list them here). He did include Seminary in the list. So adding those requirments is our doing, it's not from God. I say all of this having attended Seminary myself.

Blessings

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by eldermike
I am Southern Baptist.
Blessings

 

Some of your past posts have lead me to believe that you were reformed (ie. predestination/election).  No?

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
coastie,

I wasn't at all bashing non-denominational churches. We have an excellent one in our secluded little berg, and they do wonderful things. I have no doubt that a church can be spirit-filled and winning lost souls without a demoninational name on the door. My use of the referrence was to imply that without a standard set of rules governing the process and requirements for ordination, just about anyone can find a place to get ordained.

Also, you are correct that the problems run much deeper than my few points, but without mass revival, we can't possibly begin to solve even the simplest ones.

I agree, and am sometimes disheartened by the denominational rifts. We only disagree on minor details between denominations, and probably 99.99% of the differences make no difference to your salvation.

There is a need for organization, however, I feel that many Christians are wary of too much organization for fear that it will lead to a one world religion... however, it is my contention is that unification under Christ and Christ alone is where we will find our strength, not in arguing of minor details and allwoing church leaders to re-interpret doctrine on a moments notice.

As for a mass revival, I pray that I see a day when this comes to pass.

 

[eldermike]

Some of your past posts have lead me to believe that you were reformed (ie. predestination/election). No?

I hold a difficult to explain understanding of election. I do not put up much of a battle to defend my views on election because I actually don't believe any of us have it all right. I am a defender of freedom in Christ, OSAS and very quick to defend against any form of works as a part of salvation. So, when I defend election it's because the other side has real issue that get all wraped up in works. My ministry is about grace and freedom from slavery. I believe we all have a purpose and once that is discovered works are a natural outcome of doing what was the will of God for our lives.

I do not believe that all men will be saved. I don't believe that God created some men to send them to hell. I believe that God gave us all a way to come to Him. But because of our pride some will not make it. I beleive that God knows who they are. I also believe that God in some cases calls men to Him, giving them no escape from His grace. I do not know why. So, I believe in predestination for some, circumstances for others and mans pride gets the rest.

None of this is important next to the issue of works salvation, to me that is mans pride.

I could be any denonimation, I am not driven to teach any tradition. I teach grace.

Blessings