Once again, for the newcomers, 1000 is more often symbolic than literal

[eclipsenow]

Sometimes in the Old Testament there is a literal counting use that uses 1000. "There were four thousand men" is pretty literal - the context makes it so.

Sometimes in the Old Testament there is a literal counting use that uses 1000. Imagine something like "There were four thousand men" which is pretty literal - the context makes it so. But what about when the Old Testament uses it as a metaphor for a big number? If we investigate the following uses of "A thousand" we can see that they often use it symbolically the way we use the phrase "A gazillion". This is why when we come to Revelation - the most symbolic book of the bible with Jesus depicted as a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns - I cannot read 1000 literally. It just isn't used that way in Jewish apocalyptic symbolism.

There are just too many instances where a thousand is literary and symbolic, not literal or about an actual number. So what are they?

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
= Is the literal futurist really going to argue that God only owns a thousand hills? What about the other million or so on Earth?

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
= God was *only* going to grow his people a thousand times - from the literal number of people standing before Moses that day? What happened to more than the stars in the sky and grains of sand on a beach?


Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???


Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
= Well, which is it? Forever, or a thousand generations / 40,000 years?

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
= Is one day at church better than 1000 days aka 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."
= Is it a thousand or ten-thousand? Is it a gazillion or ten gazillion?

Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
= You mean there are limits on God's kingdom - it will ONLY grow 1000 times in size from Isaiah's lifetime?

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”
I love this one - as I've been a soldier. The image of a Sampson having a bookkeeper counting his kills is just hilarious. "997, 998, 999, 1000 - that's it Sampson! You're done for the day! Stand down Sampson - I'm writing this down!"


Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
Could Job's 'friends' actually answer his suffering 1 time in a thousand, or is the emphasis of this story that they had NO answers - only God had the authority to answer Job (and decided not to tell Job the real reason anyway. Job was just to trust God anyway, without an answer!)

You can see from the above why I chuckle a bit when futurists insist the 1000 in the most symbolic book in the bible is 'literal' - an actual number. That's just absurd.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You can see from the above why I chuckle a bit when futurists insist the 1000 in the most symbolic book in the bible is 'literal' - an actual number. That's just absurd.

You have presented the choice between "A": a literal thousand years, and "B": a symbolic figure. What if there is a third choice "C" as well? Meaning BOTH a literal thousand years, which is also highly symbolic as well?

I say this because the Revelation 20 millennium is said to have a point when it has "expired", and is "finished". If you are claiming that this expiration date for the millennium is purely symbolic, then I hate to see what you do with expiration dates on the foods that you purchase. Do you ignore those expiration dates? I hope not.

 

[ewq1938]

Sometimes in the Old Testament there is a literal counting use that uses 1000. "There were four thousand men" is pretty literal - the context makes it so.

Except when the context is a thousand of years, that's suddenly not literal. In the NT, chilioi (G5507) is always exactly one thousand of something. I can even prove it:


The following scriptures are from the E-sword bible program, specifically the KJV+ which gives the Strong's numbers for every word side by side with the English words. It might look confusing but it is important to show the English/Greek words and how they are used in scripture.



Proving the thousand years of Revelation 20 is exactly 1000 years.

The Greek word chilias "thousand" G5505 is only used in scripture when there is multiples of thousands of something:


Luk_14:31 OrG2228 whatG5101 king,G935 goingG4198 to make warG4820 G1519 G4171 against anotherG2087 king,G935 sitteth not downG2523 G3780 first,G4412 andG2532 consultethG1011 whetherG1487 he beG2076 ableG1415 withG1722 tenG1176 thousandG5505 to meetG528 him that comethG2064 againstG1909 himG846 withG3326 twentyG1501 thousand?G5505

Act_4:4 HowbeitG1161 manyG4183 of them which heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 believed;G4100 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of theG3588 menG435 wasG1096 aboutG5616 fiveG4002 thousand.G5505

1Co_10:8 NeitherG3366 let us commit fornication,G4203 asG2531 someG5100 of themG846 committed,G4203 andG2532 fellG4098 inG1722 oneG3391 dayG2250 three and twenty thousand.G5140 G1501 G5505

Rev_5:11 AndG2532 I beheld,G1492 andG2532 I heardG191 the voiceG5456 of manyG4183 angelsG32 round aboutG2943 theG3588 throneG2362 andG2532 theG3588 beastsG2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of themG846 wasG2258 ten thousand times ten thousand,G3461 G3461 andG2532 thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505

Rev_7:4 AndG2532 I heardG191 theG3588 numberG706 of them which were sealed:G4972 and there were sealedG4972 an hundred and forty and four thousandG1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 ofG1537 allG3956 the tribesG5443 of the childrenG5207 of Israel.G2474
Rev_7:5 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of JudaG2455 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ReubenG4502 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of GadG1045 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:6 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of AserG768 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of NepthalimG3508 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ManassesG3128 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:7 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of SimeonG4826 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of LeviG3017 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of IssacharG2466 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:8 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ZabulonG2194 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of JosephG2501 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of BenjaminG958 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505

Rev_11:13 AndG2532 the sameG1565 hourG5610 wasG1096 there a greatG3173 earthquake,G4578 andG2532 theG3588 tenth partG1182 of theG3588 cityG4172 fell,G4098 andG2532 inG1722 theG3588 earthquakeG4578 were slainG615 of(G3686) menG444 sevenG2033 thousand:G5505 andG2532 theG3588 remnantG3062 wereG1096 affrighted,G1719 andG2532 gaveG1325 gloryG1391 to theG3588 GodG2316 of heaven.G3772

Rev_14:1 AndG2532 I looked,G1492 and,G2532 lo,G2400 a LambG721 stoodG2476 onG1909 theG3588 mountG3735 Sion,G4622 andG2532 withG3326 himG846 an hundred forty and four thousand,G1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 havingG2192 hisG848 Father'sG3962 nameG3686 writtenG1125 inG1909 theirG848 foreheads.G3359

Rev_14:3 AndG2532 they sungG103 as it wereG5613 a newG2537 songG5603 beforeG1799 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 beforeG1799 theG3588 fourG5064 beasts,G2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 no manG3762 couldG1410 learnG3129 that songG5603 butG1508 theG3588 hundred and forty and four thousand,G1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 which were redeemedG59 fromG575 theG3588 earth.G1093

Rev_21:16 AndG2532 theG3588 cityG4172 liethG2749 foursquare,G5068 andG2532 theG3588 lengthG3372 (G848) isG2076 as largeG5118 asG3745 theG3588 breadth:G4114 andG2532 he measuredG3354 theG3588 cityG4172 with theG3588 reed,G2563 twelveG1427 thousandG5505 (G1909) furlongs.G4712 TheG3588 lengthG3372 andG2532 theG3588 breadthG4114 andG2532 theG3588 heightG5311 of itG846 areG2076 equal.G2470


Yet when the number is only one single thousand of something or one thousand plus another number that's less than two thousand, the Greek word chilioi G5507 is used:


2Pe_3:8 But,G1161 beloved,G27 be not ignorantG2990 G3361 of thisG5124 one thing,G1520 thatG3754 oneG3391 dayG2250 is withG3844 the LordG2962 asG5613 a thousandG5507 years,G2094 andG2532 a thousandG5507 yearsG2094 asG5613 oneG3391 day.G2250

Rev_11:3 AndG2532 I will giveG1325 power unto myG3450 twoG1417 witnesses,G3144 andG2532 they shall prophesyG4395 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days,G2250 clothedG4016 in sackcloth.G4526

Rev_12:6 AndG2532 theG3588 womanG1135 fledG5343 intoG1519 theG3588 wilderness,G2048 whereG3699 she hathG2192 a placeG5117 preparedG2090 ofG575 God,G2316 thatG2443 they should feedG5142 herG846 thereG1563 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days.G2250

Rev_14:20 AndG2532 theG3588 winepressG3025 was troddenG3961 withoutG1854 theG3588 city,G4172 andG2532 bloodG129 cameG1831 out ofG1537 theG3588 winepress,G3025 even untoG891 theG3588 horseG2462 bridles,G5469 by the space ofG575 a thousand and six hundredG5507 G1812 furlongs.G4712

Rev_20:2 AndG2532 he laid hold onG2902 theG3588 dragon,G1404 that oldG744 serpent,G3789 whichG3739 isG2076 the Devil,G1228 andG2532 Satan,G4567 andG2532 boundG1210 himG846 a thousandG5507 years,G2094

Rev_20:3 AndG2532 castG906 himG846 intoG1519 theG3588 bottomless pit,G12 andG2532 shut him up,G2808 G846 andG2532 set a sealG4972 uponG1883 him,G846 thatG2443 he should deceiveG4105 theG3588 nationsG1484 noG3361 more,G2089 tillG891 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 should be fulfilled:G5055 andG2532 afterG3326 thatG5023 heG846 mustG1163 be loosedG3089 a littleG3398 season.G5550

Rev_20:4 AndG2532 I sawG1492 thrones,G2362 andG2532 they satG2523 uponG1909 them,G846 andG2532 judgmentG2917 was givenG1325 unto them:G846 andG2532 I saw theG3588 soulsG5590 of them that were beheadedG3990 forG1223 theG3588 witnessG3141 of Jesus,G2424 andG2532 forG1223 theG3588 wordG3056 of God,G2316 andG2532 whichG3748 had notG3756 worshippedG4352 theG3588 beast,G2342 neitherG3777 hisG846 image,G1504 neitherG2532 G3756 had receivedG2983 his markG5480 uponG1909 theirG848 foreheads,G3359 orG2532 inG1909 theirG848 hands;G5495 andG2532 they livedG2198 andG2532 reignedG936 withG3326 ChristG5547 a thousandG5507 years.G2094

Rev_20:5 ButG1161 theG3588 restG3062 of theG3588 deadG3498 lived not againG326 G3756 untilG2193 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 were finished.G5055 ThisG3778 is theG3588 firstG4413 resurrection.G386

Rev_20:6 BlessedG3107 andG2532 holyG40 is he that hathG2192 partG3313 inG1722 theG3588 firstG4413 resurrection:G386 onG1909 suchG5130 theG3588 secondG1208 deathG2288 hathG2192 noG3756 power,G1849 butG235 they shall beG2071 priestsG2409 of GodG2316 andG2532 of Christ,G5547 andG2532 shall reignG936 withG3326 himG846 a thousandG5507 years.G2094

Rev_20:7 AndG2532 whenG3752 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 are expired,G5055 SatanG4567 shall be loosedG3089 out ofG1537 hisG846 prison,G5438

Mar 5:13 AndG2532 forthwithG2112 JesusG2424 gave them leave.G2010 G846 AndG2532 theG3588 uncleanG169 spiritsG4151 went out,G1831 andG2532 enteredG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 swine:G5519 andG2532 theG3588 herdG34 ran violentlyG3729 downG2596 a steep placeG2911 intoG1519 theG3588 sea,G2281 (they(G1161) wereG2258 aboutG5613 two thousand; )G1367 andG2532 were chokedG4155 inG1722 theG3588 sea.G2281

Here we have a Greek word G1367 dischilioi. "Dis" means two or twice and chilioi (G5507) means a thousand so this word means two thousand. Naturally then if there was one chilioi (G5507) it would be exactly a thousand just as it is in every occurrence of the word in the NT.


This is indisputable evidence that the thousand years is exactly a thousand years.



Rev_11:3 AndG2532 I will giveG1325 power unto myG3450 twoG1417 witnesses,G3144 andG2532 they shall prophesyG4395 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days,G2250 clothedG4016 in sackcloth.G4526

G5507 always means exactly one thousand like it does here. To mean more it needs to have more added to it. Here we have G5507 as exactly one thousand and then 260 added to that one thousand to form 1260. Guess what? If we removed the 260 we would have how many? Exactly one thousand, G5507.

So when we have G5507 alone, it is exactly one thousand. And when scripture speaks of "thousands" in the plural it uses chilias G5505 not G5507.

Rev_5:11 AndG2532 I beheld,G1492 andG2532 I heardG191 the voiceG5456 of manyG4183 angelsG32 round aboutG2943 theG3588 throneG2362 andG2532 theG3588 beastsG2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of themG846 wasG2258 ten thousand times ten thousand,G3461 G3461 andG2532 thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505

If Revelation 20's thousand years was thousands of years like Amillennialism claims, the word needed would be chilias G5505 especially the double appearance of the word as found in Revelation 5:11, "thousands of thousands" which is truly an unknown amount. G5507 strictly means only one thousand and no more. It cannot mean 1001, nor an unknown number of thousands or millions etc.

I'll use an example to further explain the difference of the two words.

G5505 is like a thousand dollar bill. There is just one in your hand but it's worth a thousand dollars and the word is written in the singular because of this.

G5507 (the Greek word found multiple times in Revelation 20) is like having one thousand dollar bills. That's worth the same exact amount, but it's a plural word because there is a thousand singles of something rather than one thing that equals a thousand. Imagine in your left hand a thousand dollar bill, and in your right hand a thousand one dollar bills. Same amount but the way each amount is represented is different. G5507 is plural in this sense, not that it means more than a thousand or multiples of thousands like 2000. Some Amill's will falsely claim G5507 is plural because it means an unknown amount but that shows ignorance of the Greek language and how numbers are represented.


Amillennialism will falsely claim that chilioi G5507 can have a symbolic meaning but that is false. It is never used in such a way in the Greek manuscripts. The Greek language doesn't have numbers like other languages have, as in non-alphabet characters. The language uses letters to form words that represent numbers. The only way to express and unknown amount is by using "thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505" but that is not used in Revelation 20.

In Greek if one wanted to say they had 1,000 of something, chilioi G5507 would be used. Revelation 20's "a thousand years" is exactly 1,000 years, not 999, not 1,001, not 2,000.

 

[Trusting in Him]

I don't have any problem about this! It is God's word, if that's what he says, are you going to argue with God? Show me where the bible says that what God says is only symbolic. Some peple like to say that the book of revelation is only symbolic, well perhaps it more literal than the like to suggest. How many of us know better than God.

Oh foolish and slow to believe! What is faith if it is not to trust and believe in God fully?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Except when the context is a thousand of years, that's suddenly not literal. In the NT, chilioi (G5507) is always exactly one thousand of something. I can even prove it:


The following scriptures are from the E-sword bible program, specifically the KJV+ which gives the Strong's numbers for every word side by side with the English words. It might look confusing but it is important to show the English/Greek words and how they are used in scripture.



Proving the thousand years of Revelation 20 is exactly 1000 years.

The Greek word chilias "thousand" G5505 is only used in scripture when there is multiples of thousands of something:


Luk_14:31 OrG2228 whatG5101 king,G935 goingG4198 to make warG4820 G1519 G4171 against anotherG2087 king,G935 sitteth not downG2523 G3780 first,G4412 andG2532 consultethG1011 whetherG1487 he beG2076 ableG1415 withG1722 tenG1176 thousandG5505 to meetG528 him that comethG2064 againstG1909 himG846 withG3326 twentyG1501 thousand?G5505

Act_4:4 HowbeitG1161 manyG4183 of them which heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 believed;G4100 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of theG3588 menG435 wasG1096 aboutG5616 fiveG4002 thousand.G5505

1Co_10:8 NeitherG3366 let us commit fornication,G4203 asG2531 someG5100 of themG846 committed,G4203 andG2532 fellG4098 inG1722 oneG3391 dayG2250 three and twenty thousand.G5140 G1501 G5505

Rev_5:11 AndG2532 I beheld,G1492 andG2532 I heardG191 the voiceG5456 of manyG4183 angelsG32 round aboutG2943 theG3588 throneG2362 andG2532 theG3588 beastsG2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of themG846 wasG2258 ten thousand times ten thousand,G3461 G3461 andG2532 thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505

Rev_7:4 AndG2532 I heardG191 theG3588 numberG706 of them which were sealed:G4972 and there were sealedG4972 an hundred and forty and four thousandG1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 ofG1537 allG3956 the tribesG5443 of the childrenG5207 of Israel.G2474
Rev_7:5 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of JudaG2455 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ReubenG4502 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of GadG1045 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:6 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of AserG768 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of NepthalimG3508 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ManassesG3128 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:7 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of SimeonG4826 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of LeviG3017 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of IssacharG2466 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505
Rev_7:8 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of ZabulonG2194 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of JosephG2501 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505 OfG1537 the tribeG5443 of BenjaminG958 were sealedG4972 twelveG1427 thousand.G5505

Rev_11:13 AndG2532 the sameG1565 hourG5610 wasG1096 there a greatG3173 earthquake,G4578 andG2532 theG3588 tenth partG1182 of theG3588 cityG4172 fell,G4098 andG2532 inG1722 theG3588 earthquakeG4578 were slainG615 of(G3686) menG444 sevenG2033 thousand:G5505 andG2532 theG3588 remnantG3062 wereG1096 affrighted,G1719 andG2532 gaveG1325 gloryG1391 to theG3588 GodG2316 of heaven.G3772

Rev_14:1 AndG2532 I looked,G1492 and,G2532 lo,G2400 a LambG721 stoodG2476 onG1909 theG3588 mountG3735 Sion,G4622 andG2532 withG3326 himG846 an hundred forty and four thousand,G1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 havingG2192 hisG848 Father'sG3962 nameG3686 writtenG1125 inG1909 theirG848 foreheads.G3359

Rev_14:3 AndG2532 they sungG103 as it wereG5613 a newG2537 songG5603 beforeG1799 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 beforeG1799 theG3588 fourG5064 beasts,G2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 no manG3762 couldG1410 learnG3129 that songG5603 butG1508 theG3588 hundred and forty and four thousand,G1540 G5062 G5064 G5505 which were redeemedG59 fromG575 theG3588 earth.G1093

Rev_21:16 AndG2532 theG3588 cityG4172 liethG2749 foursquare,G5068 andG2532 theG3588 lengthG3372 (G848) isG2076 as largeG5118 asG3745 theG3588 breadth:G4114 andG2532 he measuredG3354 theG3588 cityG4172 with theG3588 reed,G2563 twelveG1427 thousandG5505 (G1909) furlongs.G4712 TheG3588 lengthG3372 andG2532 theG3588 breadthG4114 andG2532 theG3588 heightG5311 of itG846 areG2076 equal.G2470


Yet when the number is only one single thousand of something or one thousand plus another number that's less than two thousand, the Greek word chilioi G5507 is used:


2Pe_3:8 But,G1161 beloved,G27 be not ignorantG2990 G3361 of thisG5124 one thing,G1520 thatG3754 oneG3391 dayG2250 is withG3844 the LordG2962 asG5613 a thousandG5507 years,G2094 andG2532 a thousandG5507 yearsG2094 asG5613 oneG3391 day.G2250

Rev_11:3 AndG2532 I will giveG1325 power unto myG3450 twoG1417 witnesses,G3144 andG2532 they shall prophesyG4395 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days,G2250 clothedG4016 in sackcloth.G4526

Rev_12:6 AndG2532 theG3588 womanG1135 fledG5343 intoG1519 theG3588 wilderness,G2048 whereG3699 she hathG2192 a placeG5117 preparedG2090 ofG575 God,G2316 thatG2443 they should feedG5142 herG846 thereG1563 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days.G2250

Rev_14:20 AndG2532 theG3588 winepressG3025 was troddenG3961 withoutG1854 theG3588 city,G4172 andG2532 bloodG129 cameG1831 out ofG1537 theG3588 winepress,G3025 even untoG891 theG3588 horseG2462 bridles,G5469 by the space ofG575 a thousand and six hundredG5507 G1812 furlongs.G4712

Rev_20:2 AndG2532 he laid hold onG2902 theG3588 dragon,G1404 that oldG744 serpent,G3789 whichG3739 isG2076 the Devil,G1228 andG2532 Satan,G4567 andG2532 boundG1210 himG846 a thousandG5507 years,G2094

Rev_20:3 AndG2532 castG906 himG846 intoG1519 theG3588 bottomless pit,G12 andG2532 shut him up,G2808 G846 andG2532 set a sealG4972 uponG1883 him,G846 thatG2443 he should deceiveG4105 theG3588 nationsG1484 noG3361 more,G2089 tillG891 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 should be fulfilled:G5055 andG2532 afterG3326 thatG5023 heG846 mustG1163 be loosedG3089 a littleG3398 season.G5550

Rev_20:4 AndG2532 I sawG1492 thrones,G2362 andG2532 they satG2523 uponG1909 them,G846 andG2532 judgmentG2917 was givenG1325 unto them:G846 andG2532 I saw theG3588 soulsG5590 of them that were beheadedG3990 forG1223 theG3588 witnessG3141 of Jesus,G2424 andG2532 forG1223 theG3588 wordG3056 of God,G2316 andG2532 whichG3748 had notG3756 worshippedG4352 theG3588 beast,G2342 neitherG3777 hisG846 image,G1504 neitherG2532 G3756 had receivedG2983 his markG5480 uponG1909 theirG848 foreheads,G3359 orG2532 inG1909 theirG848 hands;G5495 andG2532 they livedG2198 andG2532 reignedG936 withG3326 ChristG5547 a thousandG5507 years.G2094

Rev_20:5 ButG1161 theG3588 restG3062 of theG3588 deadG3498 lived not againG326 G3756 untilG2193 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 were finished.G5055 ThisG3778 is theG3588 firstG4413 resurrection.G386

Rev_20:6 BlessedG3107 andG2532 holyG40 is he that hathG2192 partG3313 inG1722 theG3588 firstG4413 resurrection:G386 onG1909 suchG5130 theG3588 secondG1208 deathG2288 hathG2192 noG3756 power,G1849 butG235 they shall beG2071 priestsG2409 of GodG2316 andG2532 of Christ,G5547 andG2532 shall reignG936 withG3326 himG846 a thousandG5507 years.G2094

Rev_20:7 AndG2532 whenG3752 theG3588 thousandG5507 yearsG2094 are expired,G5055 SatanG4567 shall be loosedG3089 out ofG1537 hisG846 prison,G5438

Mar 5:13 AndG2532 forthwithG2112 JesusG2424 gave them leave.G2010 G846 AndG2532 theG3588 uncleanG169 spiritsG4151 went out,G1831 andG2532 enteredG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 swine:G5519 andG2532 theG3588 herdG34 ran violentlyG3729 downG2596 a steep placeG2911 intoG1519 theG3588 sea,G2281 (they(G1161) wereG2258 aboutG5613 two thousand; )G1367 andG2532 were chokedG4155 inG1722 theG3588 sea.G2281

Here we have a Greek word G1367 dischilioi. "Dis" means two or twice and chilioi (G5507) means a thousand so this word means two thousand. Naturally then if there was one chilioi (G5507) it would be exactly a thousand just as it is in every occurrence of the word in the NT.


This is indisputable evidence that the thousand years is exactly a thousand years.



Rev_11:3 AndG2532 I will giveG1325 power unto myG3450 twoG1417 witnesses,G3144 andG2532 they shall prophesyG4395 a thousand two hundred and threescoreG5507 G1250 G1835 days,G2250 clothedG4016 in sackcloth.G4526

G5507 always means exactly one thousand like it does here. To mean more it needs to have more added to it. Here we have G5507 as exactly one thousand and then 260 added to that one thousand to form 1260. Guess what? If we removed the 260 we would have how many? Exactly one thousand, G5507.

So when we have G5507 alone, it is exactly one thousand. And when scripture speaks of "thousands" in the plural it uses chilias G5505 not G5507.

Rev_5:11 AndG2532 I beheld,G1492 andG2532 I heardG191 the voiceG5456 of manyG4183 angelsG32 round aboutG2943 theG3588 throneG2362 andG2532 theG3588 beastsG2226 andG2532 theG3588 elders:G4245 andG2532 theG3588 numberG706 of themG846 wasG2258 ten thousand times ten thousand,G3461 G3461 andG2532 thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505

If Revelation 20's thousand years was thousands of years like Amillennialism claims, the word needed would be chilias G5505 especially the double appearance of the word as found in Revelation 5:11, "thousands of thousands" which is truly an unknown amount. G5507 strictly means only one thousand and no more. It cannot mean 1001, nor an unknown number of thousands or millions etc.

I'll use an example to further explain the difference of the two words.

G5505 is like a thousand dollar bill. There is just one in your hand but it's worth a thousand dollars and the word is written in the singular because of this.

G5507 (the Greek word found multiple times in Revelation 20) is like having one thousand dollar bills. That's worth the same exact amount, but it's a plural word because there is a thousand singles of something rather than one thing that equals a thousand. Imagine in your left hand a thousand dollar bill, and in your right hand a thousand one dollar bills. Same amount but the way each amount is represented is different. G5507 is plural in this sense, not that it means more than a thousand or multiples of thousands like 2000. Some Amill's will falsely claim G5507 is plural because it means an unknown amount but that shows ignorance of the Greek language and how numbers are represented.


Amillennialism will falsely claim that chilioi G5507 can have a symbolic meaning but that is false. It is never used in such a way in the Greek manuscripts. The Greek language doesn't have numbers like other languages have, as in non-alphabet characters. The language uses letters to form words that represent numbers. The only way to express and unknown amount is by using "thousands of thousands;G5505 G5505" but that is not used in Revelation 20.

In Greek if one wanted to say they had 1,000 of something, chilioi G5507 would be used. Revelation 20's "a thousand years" is exactly 1,000 years, not 999, not 1,001, not 2,000.

Revelation 20:2-7 mentions chília étee – or thousand years – six times. Much debate has surrounded round whether this passage indicates a literal thousand years, or is an indefinite period, in keeping with the symbolic nature of the Apocalypse. Most of the old Roman Catholic and Protestant theologians believed it represented an indefinite or symbolic time-period. Notwithstanding, many of the “modern theologians” have taken a hyper-literalist line on the issue because many of the Bible versions simply say “a thousand years.”

The Premillennialist makes much about a literal 1,000-year reign, yet, the terms “one thousand” and “a thousand” (singular) aren’t found anywhere in the original Greek rendering of Revelation 20. Rather, we find the Greek plural word chilia repeated in all the different references there. This word [5507] carries an indefinite sense of thousand and is found six times in Revelation 20 and twice in 2 Peter 3. The word chilia is a “nominative and accusative plural neuter” of chilioi, which is the masculine form of this adjective. Both “-a” and “-oi” are plural endings in the Greek language. Greek is an inflected language in which adjectives have to match the nouns they modify in gender and number. In the case before us, the word chilia precedes the plural noun “years,” thus the adjective “thousand” has to be plural because its meaning is inherently plural.

Chillias [5505] is singular
Chillia [5507] is plural

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men were five thousand.”

It seems quite strange for Premillennialism to build such a mammoth theological edifice on such a flimsy foundation. We must question the wisdom of insisting on a singular ‘one thousand years’ when it is not anywhere in the text or found in the original. It would appear, the indefinite nature of this plural word would give more force to the Amillennial position than the Premillennial one.

 

[Douggg]

You can see from the above why I chuckle a bit when futurists insist the 1000 in the most symbolic book in the bible is 'literal' - an actual number. That's just absurd.

The thousand years of Revelation 20 is literal because it is a prison sentence.

However, the one hour in Revelation is metaphoric to mean a short time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The thousand years of Revelation 20 is literal because it is a prison sentence.

However, the one hour in Revelation is metaphoric to mean a short time.

Seems like you are cherry-picking what suits your theology. Premil normally does that. Amils acknowledge how both are figurative. That is called consistent hermeneutics.

 

[Douggg]

Seems like you are cherry-picking what suits your theology. Premil normally does that. Amils acknowledge how both are figurative. That is called consistent hermeneutics.

Premil considers context.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Premil considers context.

Not so! That is not my experience of Premil.

 

[Douggg]

Not so! That is not my experience of Premil.

You used hermeneutics. I used context.

 

[eclipsenow]

You have presented the choice between "A": a literal thousand years, and "B": a symbolic figure. What if there is a third choice "C" as well? Meaning BOTH a literal thousand years, which is also highly symbolic as well?

I say this because the Revelation 20 millennium is said to have a point when it has "expired", and is "finished". If you are claiming that this expiration date for the millennium is purely symbolic, then I hate to see what you do with expiration dates on the foods that you purchase. Do you ignore those expiration dates? I hope not.

Of course it will end - what kind of argument is that? It's a gazillion years - but it is finite. Sampson killed a gazillion of the enemy - but it was still finite. Where the use of gazillion and forever are linked because it's about God's character - that's an even better argument for the indefinite open ended symbolism of a "thousand" where the context tells us what it means. Rev 20 says the gazillion years IS finite because it WILL come to an end - which is pretty much the whole point of Revelation. We are reminded again and again of the gospel promise that this 'thousand years' we are in will end one day in the gospel hope of Jesus return.

But it's not BOTH symbolic and literal - that's not how Revelation works. Indeed, while there is a reality of our gospel hope of the Lord's return, I do not think the Lord's return is described literally. It's literary - it's symbolic (even though the event will be real) because John was making various theological points as he described it.

 

[eclipsenow]

This is indisputable evidence that the thousand years is exactly a thousand years.

First, what on earth are you doing using the KJV to prove anything? We have much earlier and better texts now. The KJV has an important place in history, but seriously, it's time to move on.

Second, I've already granted that when counting the number of men or soldiers the number can be literal. But the moment it moves to time, we see more instances where it is figurative for forever or a really long time.

Third, you have a few instances in the NT of counting people and then suddenly move to Revelation to prove LITERAL use of a thousand? Seriously? This is where numbers are the least likely to be literal - just as John was not literally saying Jesus is a lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes. What he was actually saying in theological symbolism is that we are to trust him because he died for us, and he has perfect power (7 horns) and perfect knowledge (7 eyes).

EG: You use 144,000 as literal, but it's one of the most symbolic numbers in the whole bible. The number 144,000 is like saying "God's going to save the perfectly full number of his people". It's 12 times 12 times a gazillion! It's the Tribes times the Apostles times a really huge number! I mean, how much more symbolic can you get?

So NO that is not indisputable evidence.

 

[ewq1938]

First, what on earth are you doing using the KJV to prove anything?

I am actually using the Greek language to prove what "thousand" of something means and does not mean.

Second, I've already granted that when counting the number of men or soldiers the number can be literal. But the moment it moves to time, we see more instances where it is figurative for forever or a really long time.

Not in the Greek language. The word John used is a word that means exactly a thousand of something. It can be years, men, rocks, anything.

This is where numbers are the least likely to be literal

That's a false assumption. Revelation uses exact numbers all the time:

Revelation 7:4

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



Revelation 7:5

from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:6

from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:7

from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:8

from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.



Revelation 11:13

And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.




Revelation 14:1

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.



Revelation 14:3

And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.



Revelation 20:2

And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;



Revelation 20:3

and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.



Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.



Revelation 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.



Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



Revelation 20:7

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

EG: You use 144,000 as literal, but it's one of the most symbolic numbers in the whole bible. The number 144,000 is like saying "God's going to save the perfectly full number of his people". It's 12 times 12 times a gazillion! It's the Tribes times the Apostles times a really huge number! I mean, how much more symbolic can you get?

The 144k are exactly that many people, 144,000...12k from each tribe. I mean, how much more exact can you get?

 

[eclipsenow]

I am actually using the Greek language to prove what "thousand" of something means and does not mean.

Good for you - I'm using the whole bible to show how the Hebrew and Jewish people used the number.
I'm also using this fantastically important concept called CONTEXT!

Not in the Greek language. The word John used is a word that means exactly a thousand of something. It can be years, men, rocks, anything.

Assertion is not proof - you're just re-asserting - without proof.
It's not my fault you don't understand CONTEXT.

That's a false assumption. Revelation uses exact numbers all the time:

This is a false reassertion.
Futurist's simply reassert false things all the time.

Every single one of those verses SCREAMS symbolism - especially given their context in the most symbolic book of the bible.

The 144k are exactly that many people, 144,000...12k from each tribe. I mean, how much more exact can you get?

Yeah - that's where I'm shaking my head in disbelief at how much more SYMBOLIC can you get?
You need to read the opening post again, once a day, for the next few weeks for it to sink in. Unless you think God's faithfulness to his people is finite?

You need to look at Revelation in a new light - unless you think Jesus literally is a space-lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But it's not BOTH symbolic and literal - that's not how Revelation works. Indeed, while there is a reality of our gospel hope of the Lord's return, I do not think the Lord's return is described literally. It's literary - it's symbolic (even though the event will be real) because John was making various theological points as he described it.

There is self-contradiction is this paragraph itself. The Lord's return is "symbolic" - but it's also a "real" event. What is that but allowing that something in Revelation can be BOTH symbolic and also literal? Same thing with the thousand years that is both literal and symbolic. That is often the way Revelation works. As was correctly stated above...

The 144k are exactly that many people, 144,000...12k from each tribe. I mean, how much more exact can you get?

A highly symbolic number of 144,000 First-fruits Jewish saints which is also a literal number.

The fabricated "gazillion" amount is never found in scripture. It tends to max out by calculating with multiples of "myriads", which is ten thousand.

 

[eclipsenow]

There is self-contradiction is this paragraph itself. The Lord's return is "symbolic" - but it's also a "real" event. What is that but allowing that something in Revelation can be BOTH symbolic and also literal? Same thing with the thousand years that is both literal and symbolic. That is often the way Revelation works. As was correctly stated above...

No - I'm saying it's REAL - the Lord's return - but John uses commonly acknowledged apocalyptic symbols to describe it.

The period between Jesus Resurrection and Return is also REAL - we are in it now and have been for 2000 years. (Acts 2, Hebrews 1 both say we are in the Last Days - and have been since then.)

It's REAL. There is chaos in nature, tyrants that abuse the church, etc. It's REAL. And it's taking a long time - 2000 years and counting. That really is a gazillion years! The one thing it's NOT is a literal 1000 years - and every silly futurist prediction that tries to read that literally and predict something FAILS and discredits the church.

A highly symbolic number of 144,000 First-fruits Jewish saints which is also a literal number.

This is the kind of horrific prediction and theology that comes out of literalistic, legalistic readings of symbolic sermons. (Which is what John's letter is - not a timetable of last days events but a sermon to his generation about suffering.) It's applicable to John's generation and applicable to ours. And it's a symbol of the hope we have that the entirety of God's people, both from his 12 tribes and his 12 apostles TIMES A GAZILLION will be there!

 

[ewq1938]

You need to look at Revelation in a new light - unless you think Jesus literally is a space-lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.

I understand what is a metaphor and what is not a metaphor. Cardinal numbers are literal in Revelation because they are in the Greek language.

 

[eclipsenow]

I understand what is a metaphor and what is not a metaphor. Cardinal numbers are literal in Revelation because they are in the Greek language.

Absolute rubbish. The Hebrews used 1000 as a literary device for 'a long period of time' or 'a gazillion'. So Alexander the Great conquers the land and people end up speaking Greek. But they drop all their culture and rich history of language and numerical symbols because of that? Did the number 7 stop meaning anything as well?

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???

Oh no - if this was translated into the Greek Septuagint, it means God's faithfulness runs out in 40,000 years!

Also, Jesus literally has 7 eyes and 7 horns.
Because, Greek, or something....

 

[ewq1938]

Absolute rubbish. The Hebrews used 1000 as a literary device for 'a long period of time' or 'a gazillion'. So Alexander the Great conquers the land and people end up speaking Greek. But they drop all their culture and rich history of language and numerical symbols because of that? Did the number 7 stop meaning anything as well?

The Greek culture was not adopted and the Hebrew culture dropped. You can't take things from another religion, language and culture and mash it into the Greek language and culture. In Greek, chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Greek culture was not adopted and the Hebrew culture dropped.

Agreed - that's my argument - thanks for having my back. They kept their own religion and largely their own culture - although anyone that asserts there is no Greek culture in the NT needs to rethink their position and read a bit more. But they were Hebrews - writing in Greek.

So they used Greek to express Hebrew thoughts.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand?

You can't take things from another religion, language and culture and mash it into the Greek language and culture.

Why not?
Why did they speak Greek?
Why was the NT written in Greek, referring to and quoting OT prophets that wrote in Hebrew but were translated into Greek?

They were using Hebrew culture in the Greek.

In Greek, chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.

Reassertion is not argument. Repetition is not argument.
You just keep copying and pasting that and ignoring my counter arguments.

Also, ignoring this verse.

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???

Oh no - if this was translated into the Greek Septuagint, it means God's faithfulness runs out in 40,000 years!