"On The Jews And Their Lies" By Martin Luther

[JeffreyLloyd]

...This book was written in response to a Jewish paper written against Christianity. The quote you present is specifically refering to Jews speaking against Christianity, just as everywhere else in this book, when he speaks of their lies, etc., he is refering to their blasphemous mocking of Christ, speaking against Christianity, and conversion of Christians, which Luther rightly sees as a supreme evil.

So you would say an "amen" to everything Luther wrote in the book, even in the context of what you said?

Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

 

[Lotar]

So you would say an "amen" to everything Luther wrote in the book, even in the context of what you said?

No, I'm not Southern Baptist.

I think Luther at times went to far in this book, I do not deny that, but, it is taken by many to mean things that it was not intended to mean. I would say that my objections to it is more with how it was later used and exploited than with the actual content. I could not in good conscience condemn Luther because the Nazis later used parts of it as propaganda, something he would never had imagined.

Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

No, I do not. As far as I know, it was lost and no longer exists.

 

[Moros]

Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

The Talmud.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

The Talmud.

Is that supposed to be a joke?

 

[Lotar]

Is that supposed to be a joke?

"Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a harlot: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
"Those who read the Gospels are doomed to Hell". (Sanhedrin 90a, 100b, pp.601-602, 680).

 

[Lotar]

"Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men. Shabbath 104b

She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters. Sanhedrin 106a

Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old. Sanhedrin 106

Yeshu the Nazarene was executed because he practiced sorcery. Sanhedrin 43a

On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)? Sanhedrin 43a

Christians ("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations. Rosh Hashanah 17a

Jews must destroy the books of the Christians. Shabbath 116a (p. 569).

 

[Lexluther]

You most likely would not, as in context it only appears discrimatory when looked at through the eyes of the sensitive (and perhaps at times hyper-sensitive) post-holocaust Christian world.

Yes, I would. You're alleging that I only care about discrimination if it's against someone who's had genocide leveled against them? Or what? Martin Luther wrote the following in "Jews and their Lies":

"I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. ... Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. .. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ... Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam."No. No, Lotar, I would never condone or even try to rationlize a statement like that. Not if it were set against a satanic cult, much less Judaism or Mohammadans.

 

[Lotar]

Yes, I would. You're alleging that I only care about discrimination if it's against someone who's had genocide leveled against them? Or what? Martin Luther wrote the following in "Jews and their Lies":

"I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. ... Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. .. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ... Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam."No. No, Lotar, I would never condone or even try to rationlize a statement like that. Not if it were set against a satanic cult, much less Judaism or Mohammadans.

Then you a better than most. This is one point where I do agree that Luther went too far, but if you continue, you will see what seperates him from the popular sentiment of the day; that he told them to not harm the Jews or curse them.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

"Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a harlot: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
"Those who read the Gospels are doomed to Hell". (Sanhedrin 90a, 100b, pp.601-602, 680).

Those are really from the Talmud? wow

 

[Lotar]

Those are really from the Talmud? wow

It makes his reaction, and conclusion that all copies should be siezed and burned a little more understandable, doesn't it?

That's also why King Phillip had all copies siezed and burned before the third crusade.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

It makes his reaction, and conclusion that all copies should be siezed and burned a little more understandable, doesn't it?

I'll give you the context makes a little more sense... however his language is still a bit strong.

 

[Lotar]

I'll give you the context makes a little more sense... however his language is still a bit strong.

Agreed.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Wow this thread really took off, aye?

I'll give you the context makes a little more sense...

however his language is still a bit strong.

I agree with you Jeffrey, his language was very harsh. Had I been in his shoes I don't know what would have come out of my pen. Hopefully I could have ended it like he did...

​

"O God, heavenly father,

relent and let your wrath over them be sufficient and come to an end, for the sake of your dear Son." (Luther, On the Jews and their Lies)​

​

​

​

 

[LordsRanger]

As with everything Luther wrote, he must be read in context, Luther used exageration quite often as a litterary tool in his works. If the word Jew in this book were replaced with Mohammedan nobody would bat an eye.

Perhaps Luther went overboard from time to time, but you must also look at the times in which he lived. Luther was often critisized for being to nice to the Jews. Abe Lincon was a bigot by today's standard, but we don't judge him as so because of the context of the times, as such, I do not try to judge Martin Luther by today's standards either.

I don't disagree. He did like the Jews for quite a long time, but when they would not convert, he turned sore on them.

 

[SPALATIN]

The book is horrible and I can't see how anyone could defend it. Here are some quotes from the text:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools . . ."

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people. "

". . . their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain. "

"If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies -- that is, longer than two thousand years."

Well for one thing the Luther felt that the Jews had the benefit of the Gospel now written in the language they spoke and yet they still wouldn't come to faith therefore he had no time for them and felt they should be put in their own little area of land. I don't think that he hated them but he certainly had no time for them in context of those who would hear the word and come to faith.

He certainly did not wish for them to die and ask the Princes to have them killed as Hitler did.

That is how I defend it.