Omnipotent, Omniscient, Free Will

[Tyler35]

I have questions around omniscient and omnipotent. I do believe God is both of these, but I do not believe in hard determinism. I read a lot of articles from folks who know a lot about this stuff, and have beliefs on both sides. I also see folks writing formula looking explanations. I guess my issue is, it seems folks are really trying to figure this out and by doing so they tend to put God in a box. For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will? Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them? I just don’t understand how God knowing 100% all things you will ever do means that it is a requirement that He predetermined you would do those things…
A hypothetical example I have is if someone got into a Time Machine and went into the past. They would know exactly what their or someone else’s decisions would be at every moment. That in my eyes does not take away from their old self’s free will, just that they know what their old self would be freely choosing. They could also introduce themselves to their old self and then their old self would freely make different decisions altering their future. This is just an earthly example btw.

God can do anything, and everything, but we seem to try to define what is or isn’t possible by our own logic. For instance if we say something isn’t logical so that cannot have happened that way, what that person is technically saying is God couldn’t have done it that way.
So when someone says God is omniscient and omnipotent (which I believe as well) and then they say so that means we can’t have free will because He knows everything in advance. First I still don’t understand entirely the logic on that, but second if that person is saying God can’t be omnipotent, omniscient, and humans free will at the same time…then that person is technically saying God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient.

What are y’all’s thoughts here? I have OCD btw, so this stuff really messes with my head most likely more than others and I am actually kind of struggling. I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

God structured our relationship with Him this way so that we can choose between loving Him or hating Him. Here is scripture to help:

• Proverbs 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

Blessings.

 

[zippy2006]

I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

The difficulty is that there are different arguments with respect to this question. Let's set out proposition P: <If God knows what we will do, then our actions are not free>. There are many positions related to P. Some will accept P but defend human freedom by denying that God knows what we will do (Open Theism). There are also a variety of compatibilist and incompatibilist positions.

One of the hinges of the debate turns on the question of how God knows future contingents (including "what we will do"). Your own solution assumes that God knows future contingents via simple foreknowledge. This idea comes from Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy and is generally premised on the claim that because God is outside of time he is therefore simultaneously present to all moments of time. As you say, this no more invalidates human freedom than witnessing events in a time machine would invalidate human freedom.

Yet the hard determinist will generally deviate from Boethius, and posit a causal mechanism by which God knows future contingents. That's to say that the hard determinist will answer the 'how' question differently than Boethius did. As an analogy, we might note that someone who understands the programming of a robot, such as a Roomba vacuum, will know what the robot will do in the near future. In this case their knowledge is based on a complete causal account of how the robot deterministically behaves, and this sort of how-explanation does invalidate the freedom of the robot. Hard determinists in the theological sphere tend to view things in this manner, which, again, is different from Boethius' account.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am aware the modern theology has a foundational structure for God and how we are to understand him. This foundation is mostly based on the "General attributes of God" including some of those which the OP mentioned. Omnipotence, Omniscience. Also are immutability, impassibility, and others. These are all theological concepts used by men to try and understand God. Let me suggest that this is way out of line with the foundational principles by which God wants us to understand Him. Also consider that the general attributes of God may actually be leading you away from and confusing you about the truth about God.
Getting straight to the point, read Hebrews 5:12-6:3.

I will list briefly some concepts to get started

The names of the Basics of the Word about God:

• "the first principles of the oracles of God" 5:12
• "the word of righteousness" 5:13
• "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" 6:1

And the specific doctrines of the first principles:

1. "repentance from dead works" 6:1
2. "faith toward God" 6:1
3. "doctrine of baptisms" 6:2
4. "laying on of hands" 6:2
5. "resurrection of the dead" 6:2
6. "eternal judgment" 6:2

As stated, these are the first principles of the oracles of God. This is the elementary principles of doctrine. The milk. The baby food.
The phraseology of 6:1 indicates that the higher, meat doctrine will be build upon these, and from these.
Finally to the point. You will notice that there is no talk of the "omni" principles, the general attributes of God. They are not there.
So to state it simply, if you want to come to an accurate understanding of God using the principle's and teachings that He has listed, then start here. Let me suggest that if you start with the principles made up by men, that is the "general attributes of God" then you may find yourself at a roadblock. Why? Because of verse 3 of chapter 6. We are told to go on to the more mature teachings, and if we start and learn these first principles listed above, we will be well on our way to that goal. However verse three says something very important:

Hebrews 6:3 KJV
3. And this will we do (go on to the mature teachings), if God permit.

The implication is that if we do not learn these first principles of the oracles of God listed above, then God may not permit us to move on to the higher, mature principles.


So for the moment forget about the theological concepts of the omni principles, sovereignty, impassibility, and such. Start where God wants you to start, and in fact requires you to start. If you really want to understand God, Christ, and spiritual things, start here:

1. "repentance from dead works" 6:1
2. "faith toward God" 6:1
3. "doctrine of baptisms" 6:2
4. "laying on of hands" 6:2
5. "resurrection of the dead" 6:2
6. "eternal judgment" 6:2

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I have questions around omniscient and omnipotent. I do believe God is both of these, but I do not believe in hard determinism. I read a lot of articles from folks who know a lot about this stuff, and have beliefs on both sides. I also see folks writing formula looking explanations. I guess my issue is, it seems folks are really trying to figure this out and by doing so they tend to put God in a box. For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will? Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them? I just don’t understand how God knowing 100% all things you will ever do means that it is a requirement that He predetermined you would do those things…
A hypothetical example I have is if someone got into a Time Machine and went into the past. They would know exactly what their or someone else’s decisions would be at every moment. That in my eyes does not take away from their old self’s free will, just that they know what their old self would be freely choosing. They could also introduce themselves to their old self and then their old self would freely make different decisions altering their future. This is just an earthly example btw.

God can do anything, and everything, but we seem to try to define what is or isn’t possible by our own logic. For instance if we say something isn’t logical so that cannot have happened that way, what that person is technically saying is God couldn’t have done it that way.
So when someone says God is omniscient and omnipotent (which I believe as well) and then they say so that means we can’t have free will because He knows everything in advance. First I still don’t understand entirely the logic on that, but second if that person is saying God can’t be omnipotent, omniscient, and humans free will at the same time…then that person is technically saying God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient.

What are y’all’s thoughts here? I have OCD btw, so this stuff really messes with my head most likely more than others and I am actually kind of struggling. I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

God knows but need not push. He gives grace, the Spirit, and words, circumstances we are born in...
There are moments when it seems God comes from the eternal and everpresent and engages with people and plays it live, to determine their futures. God knew creation would be good, but had to see it for Himself and said it was good.
In Genesis 6 He regrets making mankind but For the eight. Later He encounters Abram a few times, Abram puts His faith in them, God, and they engage, the future as determined by God then involves Abram having faith and asking wisely... God breathes out an ah and makes His name Abraham with an altered future, in which later Moses and Jesus come. And then comes the law and grace and Truth.

God approaches Moses to kill because he did not circumcise his son, but at the last minute his wife does. Moses engages a great deal with God in our four dimensions, in linear time. Sees His back, knows Him face to face in Spirit, speaks into the fire and listens.

Jesus was the rise and fall of many.

Paul would look non believers in the eye and engage. Conscience to conscience. When you pray, and use your faith and conscience, you can change your future. Paul mentioned our times and place of birth in Acts, and there speaks of spiritual eyes being opened, to find our place in God's Kingdom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have questions around omniscient and omnipotent. I do believe God is both of these, but I do not believe in hard determinism. I read a lot of articles from folks who know a lot about this stuff, and have beliefs on both sides. I also see folks writing formula looking explanations. I guess my issue is, it seems folks are really trying to figure this out and by doing so they tend to put God in a box. For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will? Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them? I just don’t understand how God knowing 100% all things you will ever do means that it is a requirement that He predetermined you would do those things…
A hypothetical example I have is if someone got into a Time Machine and went into the past. They would know exactly what their or someone else’s decisions would be at every moment. That in my eyes does not take away from their old self’s free will, just that they know what their old self would be freely choosing. They could also introduce themselves to their old self and then their old self would freely make different decisions altering their future. This is just an earthly example btw.

God can do anything, and everything, but we seem to try to define what is or isn’t possible by our own logic. For instance if we say something isn’t logical so that cannot have happened that way, what that person is technically saying is God couldn’t have done it that way.
So when someone says God is omniscient and omnipotent (which I believe as well) and then they say so that means we can’t have free will because He knows everything in advance. First I still don’t understand entirely the logic on that, but second if that person is saying God can’t be omnipotent, omniscient, and humans free will at the same time…then that person is technically saying God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient.

What are y’all’s thoughts here? I have OCD btw, so this stuff really messes with my head most likely more than others and I am actually kind of struggling. I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

We pretty much all have a false assumption built into our thinking, from early on —and it fits our self-centered minds very nicely— that God is just one of the many things of life. We build our thinking on our point of view, instead of the assumption that if it weren't for God, who is the ONLY brute fact, there would be nothing, and absolutely everything that is not God, is measured against HIM, and not against 'what could be'.

God is not a fellow-resident with us in the Omni. God 'invented'/created the Omni.

God doesn't look into the future. God CAUSES the future, and that, in every detail. That does not in the least mean that we don't really choose though, and there, you were correct: God knowing, and even causing, does not make our choices robotic. After all, when, apart from considering God in the mix, we realize that everything that happens, including our choices, is a result of things that happened before, we don't seem to have a problem —we don't call that robotic; but, put God at the head of all those things that cause, because he caused them, and you hear all these cries of, "foul!"

There aren't many of us that claim that God predestining all things means that there is no free will. We only mean that the term, "free will", is not often well-defined. What is illogical about "free will" is the notion that it is uncaused, entirely spontaneous.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to in your discussion of God 'not being able to do illogical things'. It is others who tell me that *I* am the one who is saying that God 'cannot do'. It is not a question of omniscience nor of omnipotence, whether God can do 'illogical things', or to be more precise, 'self-contradictory notions'. Self-contradictory concepts are not things. So, it is not a question of whether God can do them. It is a question of what in the world do we consider reality? Why would God even consider making a rock too big for him to pick up??? It is silly. Bogus.

But to get to the crux of the matter, let's consider one of the things I was once told by a jeering opponent, who claimed to be a believer, saying that there are many things God cannot do. For example, he said, God cannot cease to exist. Now to me that is just silly. WE, (as you mentioned in your post), are the ones coming up with absurdity as if it was actually worth considering. Existence is what it is because God exists. Why even put things in such an absurd arrangement —God cease to exist??? It isn't that he cannot. He doesn't exist as subject to the principle of existence like we are.

That is OUR notion, not his, to claim he must answer to facts from outside himself. THERE ARE NO FACTS FROM OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF. All fact became fact, by HIM.

 

[tonychanyt]

For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will?

Right, it does not, at least not according to First-Order Logic.

Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them?

Exactly

 

[Kale100]

There was once a man who couldn't wrap his mind around the whole free-will versus predetermination conundrum. Thankfully for him there was a group of experts in each system that met right next door to each other. First he went to the predetermination group and they asked 'what brings you here?', he replied 'I'm here under my own free will' to which they said, 'you're in the wrong room, go next door'. So he goes next door to the free-will group and they asked 'what brings you here', he replied 'I was sent here' to which they said, 'you're in the wrong room'. So there he stood outside the building, no wiser than before.
Heard that on the radio the other day, thought it was funny

 

[Tyler35]

There was once a man who couldn't wrap his mind around the whole free-will versus predetermination conundrum. Thankfully for him there was a group of experts in each system that met right next door to each other. First he went to the predetermination group and they asked 'what brings you here?', he replied 'I'm here under my own free will' to which they said, 'you're in the wrong room, go next door'. So he goes next door to the free-will group and they asked 'what brings you here', he replied 'I was sent here' to which they said, 'you're in the wrong room'. So there he stood outside the building, no wiser than before.
Heard that on the radio the other day, thought it was funny

Haha I like it!

 

[fhansen]

I have questions around omniscient and omnipotent. I do believe God is both of these, but I do not believe in hard determinism. I read a lot of articles from folks who know a lot about this stuff, and have beliefs on both sides. I also see folks writing formula looking explanations. I guess my issue is, it seems folks are really trying to figure this out and by doing so they tend to put God in a box. For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will? Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them? I just don’t understand how God knowing 100% all things you will ever do means that it is a requirement that He predetermined you would do those things…
A hypothetical example I have is if someone got into a Time Machine and went into the past. They would know exactly what their or someone else’s decisions would be at every moment. That in my eyes does not take away from their old self’s free will, just that they know what their old self would be freely choosing. They could also introduce themselves to their old self and then their old self would freely make different decisions altering their future. This is just an earthly example btw.

God can do anything, and everything, but we seem to try to define what is or isn’t possible by our own logic. For instance if we say something isn’t logical so that cannot have happened that way, what that person is technically saying is God couldn’t have done it that way.
So when someone says God is omniscient and omnipotent (which I believe as well) and then they say so that means we can’t have free will because He knows everything in advance. First I still don’t understand entirely the logic on that, but second if that person is saying God can’t be omnipotent, omniscient, and humans free will at the same time…then that person is technically saying God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient.

What are y’all’s thoughts here? I have OCD btw, so this stuff really messes with my head most likely more than others and I am actually kind of struggling. I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

A teaching I've come to appreciate, that sums up the entire biblical message IMO, states this,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Adam didn't have it-mankind wasn't yet ready to appreciate that love as the highest virtue, as that which defines righteousness in the universe. Man wanted to live according to his own "righteousness", on his own, apart from God. But God demonstrated that love, which is at the heart of the Christian faith, in no uncertain terms on Calvary. We're to reciprocate, having become jaded by the world's "offerings". How do we get it? By entering fellowship with Him, the Author of love, now as His adopted sons. This union of man with God is the basis of man's righteousness; it's how things are meant to be. And how do we enter this union? By turning to Him, the God revealed by His Son, in faith. That's the first right step that a man can make in this life.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

 

[juvenissun]

I have questions around omniscient and omnipotent. I do believe God is both of these, but I do not believe in hard determinism. I read a lot of articles from folks who know a lot about this stuff, and have beliefs on both sides. I also see folks writing formula looking explanations. I guess my issue is, it seems folks are really trying to figure this out and by doing so they tend to put God in a box. For instance I read that if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then that negates free will. Can someone explain how this exactly negates free will? Couldn’t God just know exactly the decisions you freely were going to make before you made them? I just don’t understand how God knowing 100% all things you will ever do means that it is a requirement that He predetermined you would do those things…
A hypothetical example I have is if someone got into a Time Machine and went into the past. They would know exactly what their or someone else’s decisions would be at every moment. That in my eyes does not take away from their old self’s free will, just that they know what their old self would be freely choosing. They could also introduce themselves to their old self and then their old self would freely make different decisions altering their future. This is just an earthly example btw.

God can do anything, and everything, but we seem to try to define what is or isn’t possible by our own logic. For instance if we say something isn’t logical so that cannot have happened that way, what that person is technically saying is God couldn’t have done it that way.
So when someone says God is omniscient and omnipotent (which I believe as well) and then they say so that means we can’t have free will because He knows everything in advance. First I still don’t understand entirely the logic on that, but second if that person is saying God can’t be omnipotent, omniscient, and humans free will at the same time…then that person is technically saying God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient.

What are y’all’s thoughts here? I have OCD btw, so this stuff really messes with my head most likely more than others and I am actually kind of struggling. I am not looking for a debate but answers. How does our God being omniscient and omnipotent allow for us to have free will?

If God controls us, then we do NOT have free will, no matter if we know it or not.
But if God does not want to control us, then we do have free will, regardless if God “knows” what we will be or do.

Very simple.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do not understand why God knowing what we are going to do beforehand somehow negates that free will action? Perhaps I am missing something.

 

[Tyler35]

If God controls us, then we do NOT have free will, no matter if we know it or not.
But if God does not want to control us, then we do have free will, regardless if God “knows” what we will be or do.

Very simple.

This…actually helped me much more than most of what I have read. Thank you.

 

[tonychanyt]

I do not understand why God knowing what we are going to do beforehand somehow negates that free will action?

It does not, at least not according to First-Order Logic.