Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

[eclipsenow]

Hi all,
It's become a bit of a cliche - but when I ask why certain futurists think the Olivet discourse's AOD (Matthew 24, Luke 21, etc) is some future event and not Rome trashing Jerusalem and the temple in AD70, futurists reply that Rome didn't meet the requirements of the AOD as described in Daniel. They point to Daniel 9:27,11:31,12:11 and explain that because certain requirements in these OT verses were not met to their exacting requirements, therefore they can eagerly slot in an AOD in their various, colourful and (most often) contradictory futurist timetables - and the futurist wars can continue with endless debates about where the AOD fits, what it will be like, etc.

But the futurist hasn't proved that Daniel's AOD was not already fulfilled somewhere in the past - they just assume this. So their futurist assumptions for Matt 24 are based on futurist assumptions of Daniel - without ever offering compelling reasons for those OT futurist assumptions. And down the rabbit hole we go. But this is what the Gospel Coalition says about Daniel's AOD.

The problem is, some bits of Daniel might possibly be informing how the NT visualises Judgement Day, but do the AOD sections?

As always, the first step is to read the text in literary, cultural, historical, and canonical contexts. Then we analyze the structure of the passage and do the necessary lexical and grammatical work. We begin with the key phrase, “abomination of desolation.”

The term “abomination” (Hebrew toevah and siqqus) appears more than 100 times in the Old Testament and just a few times in the New Testament. An abomination is normally a great sin, commonly worthy of death. Readers immersed in current debates about sexual ethics may first think an abomination is a sexual sin. Indeed, Scripture calls sexual sins like adultery, homosexuality, and bestiality abominations (e.g., Leviticus 18:22, 29-30). But more often throughout the Bible “abomination” refers to major covenant violations, especially idolatry (in Deuteronomy alone, see 7:25, 13:6-16, 17:2-5, 18:9-12, 27:15, 32:16). In the historical books, “abomination” always describes idolatry, often with child sacrifice (1 Kings 11:7, 2 Kings 23:13). Abomination also refers to idolatry in the prophets, including Daniel 9 and 11. (Daniel uses siqqus, a term that always appears in connection with idolatry.)

The interpretation of Daniel 9-11 is difficult and disputed, but it does have some fixed points, and the nature of the abomination that causes desolation is one of them. Daniel 9:26-27 refers to a prince who will destroy the city (Jerusalem) along with its temple and sacrifices, “and on the wings of abominations shall come one who makes desolate.” Two chapters later there is another reference to an “abomination” in connection to the temple: “forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate” (11:31).

Scholars generally agree that the first reference of these prophecies is the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who ruled Palestine from 175-64 B.C. Antiochus treated Israel with such violence and contempt that they rebelled against him. When he came to suppress the rebellion, his forces entered the temple, stopped the regular sacrifices, set up an idol of or altar for Zeus, and apparently offered swine there as a sacrifice. This is an abomination because it is idolatry, and it brings desolation because it defiles the holy place at the heart of Israel. This act was the abomination “of” desolation, the abomination “causing” desolation.
What Is the ‘Abomination of Desolation’?​

But the AOD is just one particularly common example of another trend:

not bothering to do due diligence in reading the OT prophets in their original context. So I'll make what they said above BIGGER:-

As always, the first step is to read the text in literary, cultural, historical, and canonical contexts. Then we analyze the structure of the passage and do the necessary lexical and grammatical work. We begin with the key phrase, “abomination of desolation.”
​

One good way to start is read the OT book, then watch the Bible Project on that book. The Bible Project is an amazing resource for free - and is by a trustworthy Bible Scholar with a Phd in Hebrew symbolism.

Or get a good commentary - something like this one edited by D A Carson would be good.
There's a lot of false teaching out there - and 'End Times tables' that are NOT going to come true and are going to embarrass the church. It's time to get serious about sharing the gospel - because whether or not (I'm guessing NOT) any of the End-Times-Tables on this forum are coming true - people are still mortal and dying. Whether Amils or futurists are right, it's still all about the gospel.

But I'm pretty sure Amils are right.
The OT mostly just isn't about what futurists want it to be about. For example, here's Bible Project on The Day of the Lord in the OT - and how that largely transforms in the NT.

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College - in America he would be called a Professor of OT. He says:-

While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition​

 

[Acts29]

To me, prophecy is not akin to fortune-telling. Prophecy has one purpose, the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I presume you are referring to Daniel 8 being about Antiochus Epiphanes? If so, the angel tells Daniel the vision is about "the end of God's wrath" and "the time of the end," verse 19. The second century BC wasn't the time of the end. Further Daniel 12:9 also says the vision is about "the time of the end." Lastly, one has to clip out quite a bit of Matthew 24 in order to make it fit 70 AD. These are the reasons people interpret them as future events, because they believe God meant what He said.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you sure that Josephus himself cleared this all up?

Since he did not seem to think 70AD was a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanies in the second century BC, why should we? He was the historian that gave us both accounts.

 

[eclipsenow]

To me, prophecy is not akin to fortune-telling. Prophecy has one purpose, the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I presume you are referring to Daniel 8 being about Antiochus Epiphanes? If so, the angel tells Daniel the vision is about "the end of God's wrath" and "the time of the end," verse 19. The second century BC wasn't the time of the end. Further Daniel 12:9 also says the vision is about "the time of the end." Lastly, one has to clip out quite a bit of Matthew 24 in order to make it fit 70 AD. These are the reasons people interpret them as future events, because they believe God meant what He said.

Yes, I'm still struggling with Matt 24 - and I'm a lay person. My friends who have studied theology seem to think Matt 24 talks about AD70 and then telescopes out to Judgement Day. There seems to be the FULL "Boltian" (named after Peter Bolt - a client of ours) view which basically suggests we don't learn much at all about Judgement Day from the gospels - and the partial Boltian view as described in the sermon below.

Basically, "These things" = temple destroyed in AD70, being local, avoidable, predictable events, and "That day" being the future Judgement Day which is universal, unavoidable and unpredictable.

Start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.

Then there's a follow up talk below on the second half of Matthew 24. The parable of the days of Noah proves that we cannot know - the people were all marrying and partying like the Noah thing was a mystery. The whole point of quoting Noah is how utterly unknowable Jesus' return really is.

Matthew 24

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.​

Indeed, Jesus here makes the whole futurist reading of Revelation laughable. Because if ANY of the things in Revelation were to happen as interpreted by 'literal futurists' then we'd know, for sure, that there was a 7 year timetable, here we go! But this directly contradicts Jesus own words here. Jesus says life will be so normal no one will suspect a thing. They'll be making long term plans like marrying and partying all like nothing's wrong!

The thief doesn't know, the bad servant doesn't know, and the young women with their bridal welcoming lamps don't know. Indeed, the whole point of the parable of the 10 young women is that only those who plan for Jesus to delay a long time are doing the right thing!

The thing I love about Sydney Anglican Amillennialism is that it is incredibly practical and just rings absolutely true of what Jesus is saying here. We cannot know when Jesus will return. It may indeed feel long delayed. So what are we to do? Stay true to the gospel, serve God well, and remain ready throughout your life. It's practical, gospel focussed, and deeply soul-searching - not all this end-times tables guessing nonsense.
Starts at 21 minutes in.

 

[eclipsenow]

Are you sure that Josephus himself cleared this all up?

Since he did not seem to think 70AD was a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanies in the second century BC, why should we? He was the historian that gave us both accounts.

Do you ask leading questions every time you don't have contradictory evidence or an argument? You just leave the questions hanging as if you have evidence?

 

[Acts29]

Then there's a follow up talk below on the second half of Matthew 24. The parable of the days of Noah proves that we cannot know - the people were all marrying and partying like the Noah thing was a mystery. The whole point of quoting Noah is how utterly unknowable Jesus' return really is.

Matthew 24

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.​

​

Ah, but think carefully about the days of Noah. The flood only took the wicked by surprise. The righteous, Noah and his family, knew exactly what was coming and when. To me, "the days of Noah" do not indicate any surprise at all for the righteous.

Indeed, Jesus here makes the whole futurist reading of Revelation laughable. Because if ANY of the things in Revelation were to happen as interpreted by 'literal futurists' then we'd know, for sure, that there was a 7 year timetable, here we go! But this directly contradicts Jesus own words here. Jesus says life will be so normal no one will suspect a thing. They'll be making long term plans like marrying and partying all like nothing's wrong!

Btw, I don't agree with those who teach the 7 year tribulation theory. Again, the days of Lot and the days of Noah both have this in common. The righteous knew about what was coming and were given a way out. Then the wicked were overthrown.

The thief doesn't know, the bad servant doesn't know, and the young women with their bridal welcoming lamps don't know. Indeed, the whole point of the parable of the 10 young women is that only those who plan for Jesus to delay a long time are doing the right thing!

Jesus is the one coming like a thief, so I believe He knows. Paul explains that Jesus will not come as a thief upon the righteous. 1 Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

In the Ten Virgins, half were foolish and had to oil in their lamps so as to see at night. (Remember, the call comes at midnight.) The other half will have oil for their lamps so they can see that night to go out and meet the Lord. Since they prepared ahead of time, that indicates that they will expecting Him.

The thing I love about Sydney Anglican Amillennialism is that it is incredibly practical and just rings absolutely true of what Jesus is saying here. We cannot know when Jesus will return. It may indeed feel long delayed. So what are we to do? Stay true to the gospel, serve God well, and remain ready throughout your life. It's practical, gospel focussed, and deeply soul-searching - not all this end-times tables guessing nonsense.

Fair enough. Jesus did tell us to watch, but I agree about the discord caused by many. However, I believe Jesus will send one to explain these things before they come to pass just as He did in the days of Lot and the days of Noah. The latter part of 2022 could be very interesting.

 

[eclipsenow]

​

Ah, but think carefully about the days of Noah. The flood only took the wicked by surprise. The righteous, Noah and his family, knew exactly what was coming and when. To me, "the days of Noah" do not indicate any surprise at all for the righteous.

Are you kidding me?

Then what does the very introductory sentence to that sentence say?

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. "

Also, the parable of the Ten Virgins is NOT that they had light to "see" but that they had oil to fulfil their duties as the welcoming party for the groom. The others are not stumbling around in the dark or some other story to illustrate blindness. They are not doing the right thing - just as the bad servant was not ready and got caught doing the wrong thing, and also the bags of gold. The bad servant in that was lazy with his talents - and got caught unprepared and not doing the right thing.

It's not foreknowledge of timetables in mind, but wise and godly living.

However, I believe Jesus will send one to explain these things before they come to pass just as He did in the days of Lot and the days of Noah. The latter part of 2022 could be very interesting.

Yes it could - with the pandemic slowly fading away, hopefully a Glasgow agreement on climate change, and peace and prosperity in our time.
(Nevertheless, beware! Because it will be like in the days of Noah - with people saying "peace, peace".... weddings, post-Covid catch ups, etc. And not an AOD in sight!)

 

[keras]

However, I believe Jesus will send one to explain these things before they come to pass just as He did in the days of Lot and the days of Noah.

There is no need for another Prophet. The ancient prophets, including Jesus; have given us a very comprehensive and detailed narrative of what God has planned, commencing about 10 years before Jesus Returns, His Millennium reign and then Eternity.
Here is the reason for the inability of people to understand the Prophesies:
Isaiah 42:9 The earlier prophecies have come to pass, now I declare new things:

Isaiah 42:10-12 Sing a new song to the Lord, sing His praises throughout the world, you that sail the seas and you that inhabit the coasts and islands. Let the wilderness settlements rejoice in Kedar and Sela.

Isaiah 42:13-15 Long have I restrained Myself and kept silence, but now I cry out like a woman in labour. Now I shall lay waste to the hills and dry up the watercourses. The Lord will go forth as a warrior, He will raise the battle cry and triumph over His enemies.

Isaiah 42:16-24 You that are deaf, hear now, look you blind and see! Who is as blind as the one who has My trust, so deaf as the servant of the Lord? You have seen much but perceived little, your ears are open, but you hear nothing. I shall lead the blind along paths they do not know, making smooth the way, but those who trust in idols will be turned back in shame. It pleased the Lord to further His justice, to make His Law great. Yet, here is a people taken as spoil and plundered, all hidden away with no hope of rescue. Who will pay heed to this? Who was it that handed Israel over? Who gave up Israel for spoil? It was the Lord, against whom they sinned for they refused obedience to His Laws.

Isaiah 42 :25 So, onto Jacob He poured His wrath. The flames of God’s wrath burned him, yet still they did not take it to heart.

Isaiah 43:1-2 But now, Jacob, this is the word of the Lord, of Him who created you: When you pass through waters, I will be with you. When you walk through fire, you will not be scorched.

Isaiah 43:3-4 I am the Holy One of Israel, your Deliverer. Because I love you, I will give other peoples as ransom for your life.

Isaiah 43:5-7 Have no fear, for I am with you. I shall bring your descendants from the East and West. From the North and South and the ends of the earth, everyone who bears My name, all who I have made for My glory.

Isaiah 43:8 Lead out those who are blind – a people who have eyes, but cannot see, who have ears, but cannot hear.

Isaiah 43:9 The nations are gathered. Which of them foretold former things? Or can interpret this for us? Let them prove their case, so we can see if it is true.

Isaiah 43:10-13 You are My witnesses, says the Lord. You are My servants, chosen by Me, so that you may understand that I am God alone. I am the Lord and I alone am your Deliverer. What I do, no one can undo. Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged


42:10-12 All those who love the Lord, throughout the world – get ready to praise Him for their deliverance.

42:13-15 The Lord has restrained Himself, but soon He will act in the world. Psalms 50:1-6

42:16-17 His People, righteous Christians, the Israelites of God, will be led into the Promised Land. Those judged unrighteous cannot enter. Ezekiel 20:37-38

42:18-20 & 43:8 The Lord’s servants are unable to understand prophecy or foresee His plans for them. Jeremiah 6:10

42:22-25 His people, now the people who bear the proper fruit, Matthew 21:43; are scattered among the nations by the Lord, as punishment for their spiritual forebears sins. 2 Kings 23:27

43:1-7 But now, when His people experience trouble, the Lord will protect them. All will be gathered into the Promised Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +

43:9-13 The other nations are ignorant of the Lord’s plans. The faithful Christians are His witnesses and servants chosen by Him, so they will know God and spread the gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus. 1 Peter 2:9-10

 

[Acts29]

Are you kidding me?

Then what does the very introductory sentence to that sentence say?

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. "

That has nothing to do with the coming of Jesus. Context.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

The day no one know the day or hour is the day heaven and earth pass away at the end of the age, not the coming of Jesus. Jesus was asked about the end of the age at the beginning of this chapter.

Yes it could - with the pandemic slowly fading away, hopefully a Glasgow agreement on climate change, and peace and prosperity in our time.
(Nevertheless, beware! Because it will be like in the days of Noah - with people saying "peace, peace".... weddings, post-Covid catch ups, etc. And not an AOD in sight!)

Yes. Watch always.

 

[eclipsenow]

There is no need for another Prophet. ....

...when we've got Keras, ain't that right?
(I was so sure you were going to say that! )

The irony! Your whole post illustrates exactly what I'm talking about with OT prophecies being taken out of context. You should have just stuck with the Bible Project.

Now, to help you with your Biblical Theology I'll share the REAL reason there is no need for another prophet.

Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Last Days.
2000 years and counting!

 

[Acts29]

There is no need for another Prophet. The ancient prophets, including Jesus; have given us a very comprehensive and detailed narrative of what God has planned, commencing about 10 years before Jesus Returns, His Millennium reign and then Eternity.

The prophet like Moses is coming. Deut 18. Sadly, many Christians actually think Jesus was that prophet. God is not some mere prophet, nor did Jesus do the things Moses did.

John the Baptist is Elijah who is coming first before the Day of the Lord and will restore all things. Yet no one has been willing to receive it. He is the prophet like Moses who will deliver Israel, throttle the enemies of Israel and the church, turn the hearts of many in Israel to Jesus, turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, build the third Temple, and make the bride ready. Read the prophecies about John and ask yourself if these things already happened. Did John of scripture come in the POWER of Elijah when he performed no sign? Hardly. Fulfillment remains.

Here is the reason for the inability of people to understand the Prophesies:
Isaiah 42:9 The earlier prophecies have come to pass, now I declare new things:

Isaiah 42:10-12 Sing a new song to the Lord, sing His praises throughout the world, you that sail the seas and you that inhabit the coasts and islands. Let the wilderness settlements rejoice in Kedar and Sela.

Isaiah 42:13-15 Long have I restrained Myself and kept silence, but now I cry out like a woman in labour. Now I shall lay waste to the hills and dry up the watercourses. The Lord will go forth as a warrior, He will raise the battle cry and triumph over His enemies.

Isaiah 42:16-24 You that are deaf, hear now, look you blind and see! Who is as blind as the one who has My trust, so deaf as the servant of the Lord? You have seen much but perceived little, your ears are open, but you hear nothing. I shall lead the blind along paths they do not know, making smooth the way, but those who trust in idols will be turned back in shame. It pleased the Lord to further His justice, to make His Law great. Yet, here is a people taken as spoil and plundered, all hidden away with no hope of rescue. Who will pay heed to this? Who was it that handed Israel over? Who gave up Israel for spoil? It was the Lord, against whom they sinned for they refused obedience to His Laws.

Isaiah 42 :25 So, onto Jacob He poured His wrath. The flames of God’s wrath burned him, yet still they did not take it to heart.

Isaiah 43:1-2 But now, Jacob, this is the word of the Lord, of Him who created you: When you pass through waters, I will be with you. When you walk through fire, you will not be scorched.

Isaiah 43:3-4 I am the Holy One of Israel, your Deliverer. Because I love you, I will give other peoples as ransom for your life.

Isaiah 43:5-7 Have no fear, for I am with you. I shall bring your descendants from the East and West. From the North and South and the ends of the earth, everyone who bears My name, all who I have made for My glory.

Isaiah 43:8 Lead out those who are blind – a people who have eyes, but cannot see, who have ears, but cannot hear.

Isaiah 43:9 The nations are gathered. Which of them foretold former things? Or can interpret this for us? Let them prove their case, so we can see if it is true.

Isaiah 43:10-13 You are My witnesses, says the Lord. You are My servants, chosen by Me, so that you may understand that I am God alone. I am the Lord and I alone am your Deliverer. What I do, no one can undo. Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged


42:10-12 All those who love the Lord, throughout the world – get ready to praise Him for their deliverance.

42:13-15 The Lord has restrained Himself, but soon He will act in the world. Psalms 50:1-6

42:16-17 His People, righteous Christians, the Israelites of God, will be led into the Promised Land. Those judged unrighteous cannot enter. Ezekiel 20:37-38

42:18-20 & 43:8 The Lord’s servants are unable to understand prophecy or foresee His plans for them. Jeremiah 6:10

42:22-25 His people, now the people who bear the proper fruit, Matthew 21:43; are scattered among the nations by the Lord, as punishment for their spiritual forebears sins. 2 Kings 23:27

43:1-7 But now, when His people experience trouble, the Lord will protect them. All will be gathered into the Promised Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +

43:9-13 The other nations are ignorant of the Lord’s plans. The faithful Christians are His witnesses and servants chosen by Him, so they will know God and spread the gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus. 1 Peter 2:9-10

Christians are not Israelites. Why would any Christian covet the beggarly promises made to the remnant of the children of Israel? The OT Tabernacle/Temple is a shadow of things in heaven, as you probably know. The Levites were given NO land inheritance. God Himself IS their inheritance. The church is going to heaven to serve God in His Temple just as Rev 7 describes. We are not coming back to this earth for a lousy land inheritance. Here we see the fulfillment of the promise for the Levites, the church.
Rev 1:5 ... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us a kingdom of priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people

Forget the earthly kingdom stuff. That is for the unbelievers who will be ruled over with a rod of iron. We are seated in heavenly places, literally.

 

[Acts29]

...when we've got Keras, ain't that right?
(I was so sure you were going to say that! )

The irony! Your whole post illustrates exactly what I'm talking about with OT prophecies being taken out of context. You should have just stuck with the Bible Project.

Now, to help you with your Biblical Theology I'll share the REAL reason there is no need for another prophet.

Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Last Days.
2000 years and counting!

You may not see the need for prophets, but Jesus knows the need for prophets in the wicked generation.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

 

[keras]

Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,

Yes; Jesus gave us His Revelation, the final Prophetic Word.
With all what the ancient Prophets and the Apostles, then what Jesus said, we have all the information we need to have a good understanding of what God has planned for our future. Why can't people just believe it?

Christians are not Israelites. Why would any Christian covet the beggarly promises made to the remnant of the children of Israel?

Because the wonderful Promises of God to His people, now belong to the faithful Christian peoples, from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi all,
It's become a bit of a cliche - but when I ask why certain futurists think the Olivet discourse's AOD (Matthew 24, Luke 21, etc) is some future event and not Rome trashing Jerusalem and the temple in AD70, futurists reply that Rome didn't meet the requirements of the AOD as described in Daniel.

I don't believe your argument for Amil fits in with this argument about the historical interpretation of the AoD and the Olivet Discourse, but we'll reserve that for later. I do agree that the O.D. largely focused on the historical judgment of the Jewish People, and that the AoD referred to the Roman Army, which destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD and initiated the historic tribulation of the Jewish People.

But the futurist hasn't proved that Daniel's AOD was not already fulfilled somewhere in the past - they just assume this. So their futurist assumptions for Matt 24 are based on futurist assumptions of Daniel - without ever offering compelling reasons for those OT futurist assumptions.

Futurists are compelled to focus on contemporary and future prophecy because it seems more pertinent to us alive today. However, prophecies fulfilled in the past are also given us today to teach us by what God's People before us have experienced. We must place future and past prophecies in their proper box.

The problem is, some bits of Daniel might possibly be informing how the NT visualises Judgement Day, but do the AOD sections?

The dreams of Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel (chs. 2 and 7) reiterate the same idea, which is that a series of kingdoms will somehow lead to a final conflict between God and the pagan world. The climax is the destruction of the latter-day form of the 4th Kingdom, which was Rome.

Another major story line in the book of Daniel involves the account of Antiochus 4, which we see in chs. 8 and 11. I personally believe there are two AoDs in the book of Daniel, 9.27 referring to the Roman Army, and 11.31 and 12.11 referring to Antiochus 4. Dan 12 summarizes the entire book by focusing on two very important events mentioned in the book, the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist and the 1290 days reign of Antiochus 4.

The term “abomination” (Hebrew toevah and siqqus) appears more than 100 times in the Old Testament and just a few times in the New Testament.

"Abomination" is an act or object that is repugnant to God. "Desolation" simply means "destruction." The AoD can mean many things, but the context determines what it means to the author.

In the case of Antiochus 4, he and his kingdom were an "abomination" because they attempted to enforce Hellenism and paganism. They were also a "desolation" because they murdered many thousands of Jewish people.

In the case of the Roman Army, they were an "abomination" because they imposed a pagan presence upon God's holy city and temple. And they became a "desolation" when they destroyed the Jewish People, Jerusalem, God's holy city, and the temple, God's residence among His people, the Jews.

The interpretation of Daniel 9-11 is difficult and disputed, but it does have some fixed points, and the nature of the abomination that causes desolation is one of them. Daniel 9:26-27 refers to a prince who will destroy the city (Jerusalem) along with its temple and sacrifices, “and on the wings of abominations shall come one who makes desolate.” Two chapters later there is another reference to an “abomination” in connection to the temple: “forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate” (11:31).

I do not personally believe ch. 11 has anything to do with the AoD Jesus referred to the Olivet Discourse. Rather, the AoD there referred, I think, to Antiochus 4. After all, the entire last section is the natural extension of the history Daniel speaks of.

Some futurists then suddenly interrupt Daniel's prophecy with the introduction of the words "at the time of the end," eg vs. 40. But this likely refers, I think, to the time of the end of a particular reign or kingdom--not the end of the NT age!

I do believe that Dan 9 is the reference to which Jesus refers in his Olivet Discourse, and it does speak of the end of the city and the sanctuary, which happened in 70 AD. Furthermore, Jesus explained that this would happen in "this generation," meaning his own generation. Within 40 years the temple was destroyed by the Romans.

Jesus said vultures would surround a carcass. The "carcass" was Jerusalem, and the vultures, or "eagles," were the Romans who had eagle emblems on their standards, and worshiped them.

It can indeed be confusing for futurists, who prefer to focus on endtimes events and dispense with historical interpretations. Jesus was asked how the events of 70 AD relate to the end of the age and the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

So Jesus explains that the fall of the Jewish People would happen imminently and would last until the time when the Kingdom actually comes. But that time would not be the focus of Christians. Rather, their focus should be on the Gospel of the Kingdom.

​

 

[eclipsenow]

You may not see the need for prophets, but Jesus knows the need for prophets in the wicked generation.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

Except, just a few verses later it's clear that this is all in his generation. Isn't context an amazing thing?

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”​

He's abandoning them, and opening the way for all nations to come in.
He's abandoning the temple and sacrificial system with his perfect sacrifice, so that WE can be the temple.
And the consequences? AD70.

And now?

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.​

 

[eclipsenow]

Why can't people just believe it?

Because you take it out of context and turn it into a Nicolas Cage movie!
(Eat your veggies and take long walks - 2027 isn't that long away - then what are you going to do? Just don't drink the cool-aid! Just say sorry - OK?)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Ah, but think carefully about the days of Noah. The flood only took the wicked by surprise. The righteous, Noah and his family, knew exactly what was coming and when. To me, "the days of Noah" do not indicate any surprise at all for the righteous.

But Jesus did not make any comparisons of believers in the days before His return to Noah and his family in the days before the flood. He only compared what unbelievers in the days before His return will be doing to what unbelievers in Noah's day were doing before the flood.

Btw, I don't agree with those who teach the 7 year tribulation theory. Again, the days of Lot and the days of Noah both have this in common. The righteous knew about what was coming and were given a way out. Then the wicked were overthrown.

In those examples, the righteous only knew WHEN it was coming on the day that it came. So, based on that, we should not expect to know when Christ will return at any time before the actual day that Christ returns. He even told the disciples that He would come at a time when they did not expect.

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

But, unlike with unbelievers, we are expecting Him to come some day, so when He does come it won't be unexpected and catch us completely off guard like it will unbelievers. So, He only comes like a thief in the night (completely unexpectedly) from the perspective of unbelievers and not believers.

Jesus is the one coming like a thief, so I believe He knows. Paul explains that Jesus will not come as a thief upon the righteous. 1 Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

See what I said above. You don't have to know the exact day He's coming in order for His coming to not "overtake you as a thief". That's not what it means for Him to come like a thief in the night. If He came today it would surprise us initially, but would not completely catch us off guard the way it would if a thief came in the night because we are expecting Him to come some day, unlike unbelievers. Him coming like a thief in the night only applies to the perspective of unbelievers because it has to do with Him coming when people (unbelievers) aren't expecting Him to come at all.

In the Ten Virgins, half were foolish and had to oil in their lamps so as to see at night. (Remember, the call comes at midnight.) The other half will have oil for their lamps so they can see that night to go out and meet the Lord. Since they prepared ahead of time, that indicates that they will expecting Him.

Again, to expect Him to come doesn't require knowing exactly when He will come.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't believe your argument for Amil fits in with this argument about the historical interpretation of the AoD and the Olivet Discourse, but we'll reserve that for later. I do agree that the O.D. largely focused on the historical judgment of the Jewish People, and that the AoD referred to the Roman Army, which destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD and initiated the historic tribulation of the Jewish People.



Futurists are compelled to focus on contemporary and future prophecy because it seems more pertinent to us alive today. However, prophecies fulfilled in the past are also given us today to teach us by what God's People before us have experienced. We must place future and past prophecies in their proper box.



The dreams of Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel (chs. 2 and 7) reiterate the same idea, which is that a series of kingdoms will somehow lead to a final conflict between God and the pagan world. The climax is the destruction of the latter-day form of the 4th Kingdom, which was Rome.

Another major story line in the book of Daniel involves the account of Antiochus 4, which we see in chs. 8 and 11. I personally believe there are two AoDs in the book of Daniel, 9.27 referring to the Roman Army, and 11.31 and 12.11 referring to Antiochus 4. Dan 12 summarizes the entire book by focusing on two very important events mentioned in the book, the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist and the 1290 days reign of Antiochus 4.



"Abomination" is an act or object that is repugnant to God. "Desolation" simply means "destruction." The AoD can mean many things, but the context determines what it means to the author.

In the case of Antiochus 4, he and his kingdom were an "abomination" because they attempted to enforce Hellenism and paganism. They were also a "desolation" because they murdered many thousands of Jewish people.

In the case of the Roman Army, they were an "abomination" because they imposed a pagan presence upon God's holy city and temple. And they became a "desolation" when they destroyed the Jewish People, Jerusalem, God's holy city, and the temple, God's residence among His people, the Jews.




I do not personally believe ch. 11 has anything to do with the AoD Jesus referred to the Olivet Discourse. Rather, the AoD there referred, I think, to Antiochus 4. After all, the entire last section is the natural extension of the history Daniel speaks of.

Some futurists then suddenly interrupt Daniel's prophecy with the introduction of the words "at the time of the end," eg vs. 40. But this likely refers, I think, to the time of the end of a particular reign or kingdom--not the end of the NT age!

I do believe that Dan 9 is the reference to which Jesus refers in his Olivet Discourse, and it does speak of the end of the city and the sanctuary, which happened in 70 AD. Furthermore, Jesus explained that this would happen in "this generation," meaning his own generation. Within 40 years the temple was destroyed by the Romans.

Jesus said vultures would surround a carcass. The "carcass" was Jerusalem, and the vultures, or "eagles," were the Romans who had eagle emblems on their standards, and worshiped them.

It can indeed be confusing for futurists, who prefer to focus on endtimes events and dispense with historical interpretations. Jesus was asked how the events of 70 AD relate to the end of the age and the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

So Jesus explains that the fall of the Jewish People would happen imminently and would last until the time when the Kingdom actually comes. But that time would not be the focus of Christians. Rather, their focus should be on the Gospel of the Kingdom.

​

There is not one single mention of Antiochus 4 anywhere in the Bible, yet many of you seem to find him all over the OT. You would think if he is really that relevant, the Bible would have at least mentioned his name.

There are time markers in the book of Daniel. In ch 12 there is no time marker. But there is one in chapter 11 verse 1---Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede. That seems to tell us these 2 chapters are connected.


Then there is Daniel 12:1 that begins like such--And at that time. You and I have already had this debate over at BF in the past. Something previously mentioned has to be explaining at what time in particular is meant. No one begins a sentence in that manner unless there is previous context explaining at what time is meant. There is no verse in Daniel 12 preceding verse 1, but there is Daniel 11. That obviously has to mean that at that time is involving what is recorded at the end of ch 11 and that the events have to fit with the time of a resurrection of the dead soon following. It is ludicrous that there was a resurrection of the dead in Antiochus 4's day. Therefore, the end of ch 11 couldn't possibly involve Antiochus 4 or any other ancient person for that matter since that contradicts Daniel 12:2. But who cares about contradictions, right? Let's just ignore any contradictions and keep insisting that someone fits that couldn't possibly fit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That has nothing to do with the coming of Jesus. Context.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

The day no one know the day or hour is the day heaven and earth pass away at the end of the age, not the coming of Jesus. Jesus was asked about the end of the age at the beginning of this chapter.

But Jesus is coming at the end of the age. The following passage indicates that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The context of the entire passage is established in the first 2 verses. This is all about the promise of Christ's second coming. In relation to His second coming, Peter indicates in verse 7 that the heavens and earth are reserved for fire just as the world was destroyed by water in Noah's day. He made the same comparison to what will happen on the day Christ returns to what happened in Noah's day that Jesus did in Matthew 24:37-39.

Then in verse 9 Peter indicates that the Lord is not slow in keeping the promise of His second coming. So, the subject is still the second coming of Christ at that point. And then Peter proceeds to describe what he had mentioned earlier in verse 7 in more detail in verses 10-12. Clearly, what is described there is in relation to the second coming of Christ and Him coming like a thief in the night.

And, finally, Peter indicates that what will result from Him keeping the promise of His second coming is the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells.

So, coming back around to Matthew 24:36, we should understand that what He was saying there is that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming which will be when heaven and earth pass away.

We also know that He was referring to His second coming in Matthew 24:36 by simply looking at other verses like Matthew 24:42-44 and Matthew 25:13.

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Jesus Himself said "you do not know on what day your Lord will come". With that in mind, how can you think that He was not referring to His coming in Matthew 24:36 that He had just talked about in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.".

This is what Jesus said right after describing His second coming in a parable, so it's very obvious that He was saying you do not know the day or hour that I will come. But, what many don't catch is that He was saying in Matthew 24:35-36 that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes which lines up with what Peter taught.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you ask leading questions every time you don't have contradictory evidence or an argument? You just leave the questions hanging as if you have evidence?

Are you claiming Josephus settled the issue?