Moscow Patriarchate - ROCOR reunion :)

[The Virginian]

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_news/id/7814.html

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/moscowsobor.html

This makes me very happy. It seems that reunion of the Russian Church is at hand.

The re-unon of the Orthodox Church in America! Actually the elimination of some of the " Church alphabet soup" has already started. The situation as it exists now is a direct result of the churches property here in America being preserved from the reach of the Bolsheviks diuring the Russian Revolution. The decree by Bishop Alexander Nemolovsky in 1918 that all archdiocesean parishes be independent, was followed by that of Tikon in Russia in 1920 giving the Holy Synod permission to reorganize to "protect themselves". A consequence of that action, right or wrong, led to the establishment of -among others-the Syrian-Antiochian Archdiocese, and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek CatholicChurch. We know the latter more simply as ROCOR. The Moscow Patriarchiate at the time was viewec as collaborators with the Bolsheviks/Communists.
Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese has been working for a long time for an American Orthodox Church; the first step of which was the unification of the Antiochian jusisdiction of North America under one metropolitian. Talks have been held with orher archbishops/metropolitians for the purpose of unification, and just recently the Holy See of Antioch, under Patriarch Ignatius IV, granted the Antiochians the right to be Autonomus.
As to the situation with ROCOR and the MPand their having communion with one another, some long political hatreds and the matter of monies will have to be overcome. As my priest just said an hour or so ago, "I'd rather go slow than fast", for these sort of things with the Orthodox have historically taken a long time to be rectified.


the sinful and unworthy servant

 

[Xpycoctomos]

We are not going to see ROCOR disappear, and it would seem by the above statement that today just appeared on the ROCOR web site, it will be just intercommunion, and the real question that needs to be asked what is ROCOR's relations going to be with the OCA the daughter Church of the MP in America? What is the relationship going to be with the MP in Briton? To me its all well and good that they will not call the MP a stooge anymore, but that does absolutely nothing to address the heresy and sin of the jurisdiction mess of Orthodoxy in the West.
Jeff the Finn

This is true, but first things first. We need to recognize each other's validity and integrity before we can ever dream to solve the American Jurisdictional problem.

John

 

[Nickolai]

The re-unon of the Orthodox Church in America! Actually the elimination of some of the " Church alphabet soup" has already started. The situation as it exists now is a direct result of the churches property here in America being preserved from the reach of the Bolsheviks diuring the Russian Revolution. The decree by Bishop Alexander Nemolovsky in 1918 that all archdiocesean parishes be independent, was followed by that of Tikon in Russia in 1920 giving the Holy Synod permission to reorganize to "protect themselves". A consequence of that action, right or wrong, led to the establishment of -among others-the Syrian-Antiochian Archdiocese, and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek CatholicChurch. We know the latter more simply as ROCOR. The Moscow Patriarchiate at the time was viewec as collaborators with the Bolsheviks/Communists.
Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese has been working for a long time for an American Orthodox Church; the first step of which was the unification of the Antiochian jusisdiction of North America under one metropolitian. Talks have been held with orher archbishops/metropolitians for the purpose of unification, and just recently the Holy See of Antioch, under Patriarch Ignatius IV, granted the Antiochians the right to be Autonomus.
As to the situation with ROCOR and the MPand their having communion with one another, some long political hatreds and the matter of monies will have to be overcome. As my priest just said an hour or so ago, "I'd rather go slow than fast", for these sort of things with the Orthodox have historically taken a long time to be rectified.


the sinful and unworthy servant

Forgive me if this comes off too strong, but america does not need to have an Autonomous Church, we already have an Autocephalous Chuch, the OCA. While Met. Phillip's intentions may be good, (That's giving him a lot of credit, given some of the horrible things he's said about the OCA) But they are unneeded, as an Autonomous Church Rival to the OCA would not create unity, but would cause more division.

Forgive me,

 

[gzt]

My impression of the situation was that the Antiochians in America becoming autonomous was the first step towards unity in whatever way is most prudent. I could very well be wrong.

 

[nicodemus]

His daughter and her family go to my former church in Tennessee. He concelebrates there when he's visiting them.

Cool. Small world They have the neatest little food festival every November. Eventhough my dad isn't Orthodox, he loved going to that church's festival for a visit and to tour the church and talk with Fr. Benedict. I'm going to miss that this year for the first time in years. (Getting homesick can't you tell?)

 

[countrymousenc]

My impression of the situation was that the Antiochians in America becoming autonomous was the first step towards unity in whatever way is most prudent. I could very well be wrong.

I have heard, from more than one source (that does not include TAW), that the Antiochians sought autonomy for that very purpose, and that once they gain autocephaly, the two churches (Antiochian and OCA) plan to merge.

I also get really tired of hearing the Orthodox Church slammed (even by some of its own) for having overlapping jurisdictions here. The cause is circumstantial, not premeditated, and the problem has to be solved by following canonical procedure, which takes time. (Besides, we know that there is no Orthodox Saint by the name of "Speedy Gonzales" )

 

[vanshan]

It would be nice if we could at least all be united under one jurisdiction, traditionally it was the Russian patriarchate who headed all missions and evangelism in the U.S., and then grow until we are ready for autonomy.

Basil

 

[countrymousenc]

It would be nice if we could at least all be united under one jurisdiction, traditionally it was the Russian patriarchate who headed all missions and evangelism in the U.S., and then grow until we are ready for autonomy.

Basil

It will be nice when we are all finally united in one jurisdiction. Meanwhile, we are and have always been one communion.

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

Our youth society is planning to invite Fr. Maxim Kozlov, who take part in talks with ROCOR for a lecture on the next week. You can tell me your questions for him

 

[ExOrienteLux]

I have heard, from more than one source (that does not include TAW), that the Antiochians sought autonomy for that very purpose, and that once they gain autocephaly, the two churches (Antiochian and OCA) plan to merge.

I also get really tired of hearing the Orthodox Church slammed (even by some of its own) for having overlapping jurisdictions here. The cause is circumstantial, not premeditated, and the problem has to be solved by following canonical procedure, which takes time. (Besides, we know that there is no Orthodox Saint by the name of "Speedy Gonzales" )

That's good to hear at least. Too bad I'll probably be dead by the time it happens, but like everyone's said, that's just Orthodox time for ya.

It ought to make things interesting in a few areas of the country, though, especially New York and Pittsburgh. I'm a little worried at what kinds of dogfights might break out over who gets which see and all that stuff. But, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

+IC XC NIKA+
Josh.

 

[Reader Nilus]

I have heard, from more than one source (that does not include TAW), that the Antiochians sought autonomy for that very purpose, and that once they gain autocephaly, the two churches (Antiochian and OCA) plan to merge.

I also get really tired of hearing the Orthodox Church slammed (even by some of its own) for having overlapping jurisdictions here. The cause is circumstantial, not premeditated, and the problem has to be solved by following canonical procedure, which takes time. (Besides, we know that there is no Orthodox Saint by the name of "Speedy Gonzales" )

How is the Jerusalam Patriarchate churches in America circumstantial? The problem is at the feet of the old world bishops, and yes they can fix it if they so chose, which they do not, because of that most spiritual reason, MONEY.
Jeff the Finn

 

[The Virginian]

This is truly unbelievable! Most of the Churches in the "mother countries" would suffer near economic failure, if for some reason those in the supposed diaspora were to curtail sending money "back home".
How, however does one handle the problem of the collaborators with the Communists during their Revolution, which to me seems to be a break in communion with those who were abroad. The Moscow Patriarchiate seems to be , to this day, hamstrung by it's close association with the Russian government, which in spite of all the peristroika (?) of recent years, seems to still be infested with atheism. I've used seems several times, yes, the hurdle is still the collabratioin with those who persecuted the Church, and sought to , when maintaining it's empire in far flung territories was impossible, grab whatever properties it could for liquidation into hard assets, i.e., cash. How does one go about absolving, and re-intergrating into the faith those who so obviously denied it. There's more than money and "old" versus "new" believres at issue here, or so it seems!

 

[The Virginian]

Forgive my absent-mindedness: On the www.monachos.net web page is a thread; 2004 Hierarchal Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church (MP) some may be interested in.





the sinful and unworthy servant

 

[countrymousenc]

This is truly unbelievable! Most of the Churches in the "mother countries" would suffer near economic failure, if for some reason those in the supposed diaspora were to curtail sending money "back home".

If the Old World jurisdictions would collapse without the money, perhaps the charitable thing for their daughters in the New World to do is to continue to support them until they can get back on their feet? Doesn't charity take precedence?

How is the Jerusalam Patriarchate churches in America circumstantial?

Jeff, I must admit I don't know anything about those churches or why they're here. Would you tell me?

 

[Reader Nilus]

It seems that disorder at the highest level, an outrage and scandal that our Church endures because of the jursidictional sin and heresy in the USA, that a priest Weldon (John Hardenbrook was defrocked by the Antiochian Archdiocese, only to have him reappear as Thaddaeus Hardenbrook priest in the Jerusalem Patriarchate and not only that in a rival parish from the one he was ousted from Saints Peter and Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church in Ben Lomond, CA. St Lawerence Orthodox Church in the JP is in Felton, CA only a few miles down the road!
Jursidictional hopping is a protestant thing, perfect for protestant converts, it makes them feel right at home! Don't like your priest or bishop, just move on down the road and find a new jursidiction! That is exactly what Weldon Hardenbrook did, along with his followers from the schism in the Ben Lomond parish!
The American Church would support the mother churches, even if we all one American Orthodox Church. The travisty of the above account has to stop.
I have not found any reason why the Jerusalem Patriarchate is here in America, but as my bishop suggests it may be money is to be had here.
Jeff the Finn
Jeff the Finn

 

[nicodemus]

From what I can tell, the JP is providing a "refuge" for those who are running into problems with the liberalism of the OCA and Antiochian churches, but who don't want to have to deal with the ethnocentricism of many of the other jurisdictions. It is sad, but I have friends in JP churches, and I can't fault them to some extent. There are so few JP churches in the US, I can't imagine they're providing any great financial boost to the JP.

 

[Reader Nilus]

From what I can tell, the JP is providing a "refuge" for those who are running into problems with the liberalism of the OCA and Antiochian churches, but who don't want to have to deal with the ethnocentricism of many of the other jurisdictions. It is sad, but I have friends in JP churches, and I can't fault them to some extent.

What liberalism? The fact is it is disregard for the authority of the bishop, and if one does not like the bishop, as former protestants it is American thing to do is shop for one that suits me, instead of thinking they know what they are doing because of the Chrism they received, we know better. The JP has done nothing but muddy the waters here, and it is clear they do not care if another jurisdiction defrocked someone.
Jeff the Finn

 

[katherine2001]

I agree, Jeff. It reminds me of church shopping. If you don't like what's being taught, you keep going to different churches til you find one that agrees with what you believe. When the bishop in the JP church they're going to tells them something they don't like, are they going to find another church? I also have problems with another jursidiction accepting a priest defrocked by another one. Priests don't get defrocked for little things. A priest has to do something pretty serious to get defrocked.

 

[Rilian]

Early in the 20th century Presbyterianism in this country split into conservative and liberal camps. I remember hearing about a rival church by my Grandparents that started up when one group left the other, I think it was literally almost across the street.

That's really depressing what jeff is saying, for some reason I didn't think Orthodoxy was prone to that level of sectarianism. I'm not even sure really what to say. That's really, really sad.

 

[Suzannah]

Our youth society is planning to invite Fr. Maxim Kozlov, who take part in talks with ROCOR for a lecture on the next week. You can tell me your questions for him

I hope Sergei, that you tell him how happy I am that this wound might be healed. I would like to know,

1) how the Russian Patriarch (Many years!) views Russia's place in Orthodoxy, as it is called "New Rome" in some circles (I know this is not really related to the reunion, but I want to know!)

2) Will Russia once again become involved in the historical churches and monasteries of Alaska? Yes, please say yes???

3) I am in a Serbian church which is in communion with both ROCOR and Russia. We would like to know if Russia will ever support cannonization of Fr. Seraphim as his monastery is now in our jurisdiction and we venerate him. ROCOR church in my city does venerate him too, and we hope that the Patriarch will someday lend support for this when it comes time.


Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I really want to know!

Love,
Suzannah