Yes, the interview concerns HH St. Pope Kyrillos VI at some points, and those reflections are very good. My only point is that there is more in it and these other musings reflect Dr. George Bebawi's biases against our Church. Perhaps if taken in isolation, the quotes concerning HH can be used to some good end, no differently than we might find good reflections anywhere. But I felt a need to point out Dr. George Bebawi's affiliations and past history because of the other things in the interview, which might otherwise give people the idea that this "insider" information is exposing the Coptic and Ethiopian churches as heretical (which they are already believed to be by the EO, of course, but that's all the more reason for an OO person not to speak of an EO representative approvingly just because he has nice things to say about HH). Similar things have happened in the past with the ridiculous interview of one Priest Fr. Henein formerly of the Coptic Church in Greece who left the OO for the EO and proceeded to talk at length of the "evils" and wrong theology of the COC, including dividing the person of Christ and being Monopyhsites (figure that one out; Fr. Henein sure hasn't).
Be careful with EO sources, is all I'm saying.
.
Of course - although on the issue, it is never forgotten with regards to knowing differences. If one wants to talk on Bebawi's extended thoughts and where they disagreed, by all means they can do so - provided that (as it concerns this thread) they can give reference/source or research article for counter-point since it doesn't help simply saying where someone is off without showing one understands why they switched. There are already places elsewhere for discussion that people can venture into - be it his
actual writings for others to hear himself where he's coming from (as not all things he ever said even outside of the OP Topic were off) or here:
And to note, as noted in
Dr. George Bebawi Lecture - Tasbeha.org Community, even other Copts have pointed out how often the man has had character assasinations go on due to other comments of his which were not accurate - and yet were taken and extended beyond their context.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpIZeU-5KAU
That said, knowing that there have already been others who switched who did NOT respond with dismissing all aspects of what they grew up in. I've seen the same thing as it concerns EOs who came to the OO side and the same reactions happened with others zealously promoting their own side (i.e. "That man could NEVER have been EO if he felt the OOs had valid points/liturgy that was more mysterious!!" when really they were bothered that someone switched). I've experienced both - so I am far less quick to go to war on i when my focus is on the facts (i.e. "Chew the meat, spit out the bones") - there have been plenty of people leaving a group and having reasons that weren't really reflective of what the group believed (regardless of where they start) - people have had the same when it came to going for the Assyrian Church of the East above either the EO or the OO. And of course, for others who are comfortable in both worlds due to their associations/experiences with both, I tend to see the issue in the same way as I did growing up when people forced you to either be Black or White (if Biracial) rather than knowing where you already appreciate both (as I've shared before
#19 ,
here,
here,
here and
here and
here).
I am already used to dealing with learning information point for point due to the history background I am in for Grad School (as
mentioned before)- in the same way we deal with information with comparative religions. If I wanted to focus on Bebawi (as another Orthodox poster brought up a link he found interesting) and share all aspects I disagreed with him on, I would make a thread about it - but in a thread dealing with one aspect, that is not the focus and I would focus specifically on where it was that I saw him to being right. It's really no different than anyone else who is a figure in history - facts are facts and where I agree, I'll note it - but that never means wholesale endorsement of all actions.
Not everything warrants a mindset saying "If it's from someone who used to be OO and is EO, don't go for it!! - in the same way that it would go in reverse when others go for the OO side saying "If someone is OO, don't believe it" - there's enough mixture within the camps (as already discussed
before here) and people on all sides and I've had way too many conversations with others in the OO world on EO politics just as I've seen in the EO world in reverse (including having friends where one is Greek Orthodox and the girlfriend is Coptic Orthodox - the boyfriend coming on a retreat with us for the Coptic Orthodox Youth and us all discussing since I had visited his church before/knew some of the clergy and we all shared our thoughts....but of course, I also know where certain topics can be quite heated
)..
Again, taking the comments on HH St. Pope Kyrillos VI in isolation, fine. But they aren't presented in isolation, and I certainly would not point anyone curious about our church or HH to the likes of an apostate such as Dr. George Bebawi just because he has had some positive interactions with HH.
That is your response choice - but within this thread, the focus is on Pope Kyrillos VI and on his work. Thus, any information given requires folks to center on the things pertaining to him. There are other places where one could begin discussion on that issue and other OO have already done it (just as EO) where they point others to resources with solid points while knowing what things to be cautious of - and, if the discussion goes there, taking time to converse on those issues graciously. We already know plenty (although FAR from all) on BOTH sides don't think the other is somehow legitimate - that is not the focus in this thread, of course, and trying to argue on that point only fuels the matter further instead of discussing the topic for what it is.
That said, as said before, I would prefer we stay focused on Pope Kyrillos and his works - there are always other things to discuss on the issue and that is something I'd prefer not to get lost in.
Pope Kyrillos has an extraordinary life that is so worth discussion.......
They are the other major religious group among the ethnic Russians. Just an example. If it bothers you, substituting "atheist" or "agnostic" would make the same point
Got you - as that makes sense and clarifies.
