Methodists and Lutherans...differences and similarities?

[circuitrider]

I'm not sure why so many have this idea that United Methodists reject the sacraments. We don't and we quite clearly don't; but it seems a common theme. A common understanding that the 'difference' between us and whoever comes in here is that we believe in 'mere ceremonies' and that's simply not true. Maybe our churches need to do a better job educating folks?

Do you suppose that they are confusing Baptists and Methodists down south? You'd not think that would happen. But still....

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Do you suppose that they are confusing Baptists and Methodists down south? You'd not think that would happen. But still....

Possibly. My wife grew up RCC and in her particular parish, during confirmation, they were simply taught about "Protestants", and not ever any individual protestant groups. In fact one of her sisters told me just the other day that she didn't even know the NAMES of any other Protestant churches other than Methodists (because of me) and Baptists (because of a friend of hers). She said when she was a kid she thought all Protestants were Lutherans because of Martin Luther.

In her confirmation class about "Protestants" she was taught that all protestants are congregational, don't believe in sacraments, and are mostly small loosely organized groups. She was also taught that the U.S. is "mostly Catholic" which is actually far, far from the truth. While there are more Roman Catholics than any one particular Protestant denomination in the U.S., the U.S. is a very much protestant nation. The U.S. is 52% Protestant and 23% Roman Catholic, with Evangelical Protestants edging out Mainline Protestants.

From what she learned it seemed she learned (along with beliefs about OSAS, etc.) that she learned about Evangelical Protestantism, especially Calvinist theology; and was made to attribute those beliefs to ALL Protestants.

To their credit, though I have a unique experience of dating a former Catholic for 7 years and then marrying her, this year will be 4 years, most of my congregation and in fact many of my colleagues know very little about Roman Catholicism. They can probably touch the high points; the pope, no women in Ordained ministry (though they are in 'consecrated' ministry, if that's any consolation I suppose. And just like the UMC has had Pastors performing same-sex marriages in defiance of Church law, some RCC Bishops have ordained female Priests. There are also some married priests, through special permission from the Pope. One is in Kirkwood and one is 20 minutes from me in fact!). Maybe they'd know something about transubstantiation. But beyond that, many don't know much about the RCC. Or the ELCA or LCMS (or even know there's a distinction), etc. etc. Folks seem to know about their "home turf" and that's about it.

 

[circuitrider]

Bad information about denominations is really common. I had all kinds of wrong ideas about Roman Catholics growing up because my information came from conservative evangelical Protestants rather than Roman Catholics.

A friendship with a local parish priest helped me learn a lot more about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches without being filtured through someone else's perceptions.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Bad information about denominations is really common. I had all kinds of wrong ideas about Roman Catholics growing up because my information came from conservative evangelical Protestants rather than Roman Catholics.

A friendship with a local parish priest helped me learn a lot more about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches without being filtured through someone else's perceptions.

Absolutely. I've heard some wacky stuff about the RCC from my own parishioners and especially from some of the same conservative evangelical groups. Everything from Catholics have to pay to get in the door, to the idea that they don't believe in salvation or heaven.

 

[circuitrider]

I try to dispel misinformation when I can. Heck, some of my own relatives who are Baptists think I am "almost Catholic" because I baptize infants.

Go figure. Given that Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians etc. all baptize infants it looks just as Protestant to me as Catholic.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I try to dispel misinformation when I can. Heck, some of my own relatives who are Baptists think I am "almost Catholic" because I baptize infants.

Go figure. Given that Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians etc. all baptize infants it looks just as Protestant to me as Catholic.

One thing that really "rocked my world" when I started to get really serious about my faith was how my fundamentalist upbringing was NEW and the theology of Methodists and other Protestants, including infant Baptism, was the historic perspective. Penal Substitution is new whereas Ransom Theory and Christus Victor existed hand in hand almost unopposed for a thousand year of Christian History.

And yes, in reality, infant Baptism is a Christian doctrine; not exclusively protestant or Catholic. But my wearing an alb and using liturgical paraments is what makes me "too Catholic" in the eyes of my colleagues in other denominations in this area. They've said as much. For them it's the image and symbolism.

 

[circuitrider]

Funny! When I wear my alb to an ecumenical event I get, "well its about time Methodists got rid of those black robes and put on albs." I do still wear my black robe some too because I like it and it takes less time to put on when I'm in a rush. But its all about who you are living with. This is a very Lutheran and Catholic area. Baptists are few and far between.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Funny! When I wear my alb to an ecumenical event I get, "well its about time Methodists got rid of those black robes and put on albs." I do still wear my black robe some too because I like it and it takes less time to put on when I'm in a rush. But its all about who you are living with. This is a very Lutheran and Catholic area. Baptists are few and far between.

Very different areas for sure!

 

[GraceSeeker]

And where I presently serve (central Illinois), all those traditions from Baptist to Catholic (which is a much bigger spread than "B" to "C" in the alphabet) get along. Even the LCMS cooperates within the larger Christian body. Just had a community Lenten service last night in which the RCC priest preached in my sanctuary, and next week we all will go to a conservative non-denominational church, a different congregation hosting the entire Christian community every week. In southern Illinois we would pull that off Thanksgiving, but in Lenten all the Methodists did their thing together while the Baptists and independent Christian churches didn't seem to even know that Lent (or even Advent) was a season of the church year.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

That's great!

 

[circuitrider]

And where I presently serve (central Illinois), all those traditions from Baptist to Catholic (which is a much bigger spread than "B" to "C" in the alphabet) get along. Even the LCMS cooperates within the larger Christian body. Just had a community Lenten service last night in which the RCC priest preached in my sanctuary, and next week we all will go to a conservative non-denominational church, a different congregation hosting the entire Christian community every week. In southern Illinois we would pull that off Thanksgiving, but in Lenten all the Methodists did their thing together while the Baptists and independent Christian churches didn't seem to even know that Lent (or even Advent) was a season of the church year.

I previously served in Baptist churches before becoming a United Methodist. I'm the one who introduced Advent and Lent to two of those churches.

There is a big difference between American Baptist (where I primarily had served previous to my UMC affiliation) and Southern Baptist where often Advent and Lent still are not practiced.

I had a friend in one community who was a LCMS pastor who really wanted to participate in our ministers association and came to some meetings. But his church would never let him participate in ecumenical services.

Me and the Presbyterian pastor once tried to get together an ecumenical service where communion would be shared. The Roman Catholic priest was cool with the idea though he said he couldn't himself participate. But the SBC pastor had a fit about the idea. His church believed in "closed communion." He believed you could only commune in the local church where your membership was held. He had no concept of the universal church.

 

[Dave-W]

Lawrence may not be aware that there are actually several Lutheran denominations that don't actually agree with each other either. The Missouri Synod is not what I would think of as the mainstream of Lutheranism.

Much more mainstream Lutheran than Illinois Synod. They seem to be more in line (in both doctrine and practice) with Fundamentalist Baptists.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Much more mainstream Lutheran than Illinois Synod. They seem to be more in line (in both doctrine and practice) with Fundamentalist Baptists.

Hmmm, I live here in central Illinois in the heart of the Illinois Synod, (and I've also served in southern Illinois and northern Illinois) and I don't experience the LCMS as being in line with Fundamentalist Baptists at all. And the ELCA (in which I've served) isn't even close.


RomansFiveEight, you live in Missouri, what is your experience with the Missouri Synod?

 

[Dave-W]

Not the LCMS; the LCIS.

They are thankfully a very small denomination.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Not the LCMS; the LCIS.

They are thankfully a very small denomination.

Must be. I've never even heard of them.

I've heard of these Lutheran bodies (http://usalutherans.tripod.com/id1.html) and the North American Lutheran Church, and I know the ajudicatory bodies for the ELCA and the LCMS within Illinois. But I don't know of an LCIS denomination.

 

[Dave-W]

I am unable to find the links I used to have on them. They are KJV only, and sounded like they are as doctrinaire and controlling as any fundy group I have ever seen. They barked against those Missouri and ELCA groups as having gone the way of the world. There were only about a dozen local congregations on their list spread across Illinois, Wisconsin and Indiana.

 

[circuitrider]

There are enough differences between Lutherans and other Lutherans that I'd say the ELCA is closer in doctrine to the UMC than it is to the LCMS and some other even more conservative groups.