Messianics and Dispensationalism

[Messianic Jewboy]

Matt 22:32

32 ‘I am the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov’? He is God not of the dead but of the living!”

He is known as the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac and the G-d of Jacob. This is PRIOR to any jewish Temple being built. Yeshua requires that the sons of Abraham do the works of Abrahm. Torah is NOT dead; Torah is living.

Ex 3:15

15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.


Did not Abraham circumcise Isaac on the 8th day? Did not Abraham perform Temple worship on that holy mountain when he offered his only son Isaac?

John 8
39 They answered him, “Our father is Avraham.” Yeshua replied, “If you are children of Avraham, then do the things Avraham did!

Abraham was declared righteous with no standing jewish Temple:

James 2
20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such “faith” apart from actions is barren? 21Wasn’t Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz’chak on the altar?


Once a man is circumcised, he remains circumcised, he can not become uncircumcised. A man's circumcision has no "dispensation" or "time frame" attached to it. The foreskin never grows back, and is forever "cutoff" from the body.

Let us hear Pharaisee Paul with regard to "circumcision on the 8th day".

1 Cor 7
18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn’t undergo b’rit-milah.

The problem is your correct that Abraham performed sacrifices. The problem is G-d said after that sacrifices could only be done according to the Law of Moses which today they can't.

 

[mercy1061]

Actually, you are incorrect. There were some Jews during the period of Greek rule that had their circumcision surgically reversed.

A man can not become "uncircumcised" naturally; the foreskin does not grow back. As Pharisee Paul says a man should not seek to remove his circumcision; without surgery circumcised man would remain in his circumcision. Much in the same way, surgery I guess could change a man into a woman, but I do not agree with using modern medicine in this way. A man should remain in his calling.

 

[mercy1061]

The problem is your correct that Abraham performed sacrifices. The problem is G-d said after that sacrifices could only be done according to the Law of Moses which today they can't.

Special conditions had to be met. Like if I say on the seventh day, a man should rest. It does not mean the seventh day law is "nullified" or "done away" because a man must finish his work on the 6th day. A man must finish his work BEFORE he can rest; this is the example the Creator has established. A man should not rest if his work remains undone on the 6th day.

Matt 5
17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

 

[annier]

If your honest that question then when the Temple was still present I would agree. But we don't have anything in scripture about when the Temple isn't present.

When the temple is inoperable, even in exile, it is confession of their sins and the sins if their fathers, and accepting their punishment, that is to be done it says here
Lev 26:.39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

I would think the acceptance of their punishment would be because there is no sacrifice for sin.

 

[mercy1061]

When the temple is inoperable, even in exile, it is confession of their sins and the sins if their fathers, and accepting their punishment, that is to be done it says here
Lev 26:.39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

I would think the acceptance of their punishment would be because there is no sacrifice for sin.

Jer 7

21 Thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el: “You may as well eat the meat of your burnt offerings along with that of your sacrifices. 22 For I didn’t speak to your ancestors or give them orders concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices when I brought them out of the land of Egypt. 23 Rather, what I did order them was this: ‘Pay attention to what I say. Then I will be your God, and you will be my people. In everything, live according to the way that I order you, so that things will go well for you.’



Obedience is better than sacrifice. Abel offered an acceptable offering or sacrifice yet he was murdered by his older brother Cain.

 

[mercy1061]

Jer 7

This word came to Yirmeyahu from Adonai: 2 “Stand at the gate of the house of Adonai and proclaim this word: ‘Listen to the word of Adonai, all you from Y’hudah who enter these gates to worship Adonai! 3 Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: “Improve your ways and actions, and I will let you stay in this place. 4 Don’t rely on that deceitful slogan, ‘The temple of Adonai, the temple of Adonai — these [buildings] are the temple of Adonai.’ 5 No, but if you really improve your ways and actions; if you really administer justice between people; 6 if you stop oppressing foreigners, orphans and widows; if you stop shedding innocent blood in this place; and if you stop following other gods, to your own harm; 7 then I will let you stay in this place, in the land I gave to your ancestors forever and ever. 8 Look! You are relying on deceitful words that can’t do you any good. 9 First you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, offer to Ba‘al and go after other gods that you haven’t known. 10 Then you come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, ‘We are saved’ — so that you can go on doing these abominations!

Look at what Israel did after the Temple was built. Did they keep Torah? Yet our famous "dispensationalists" tell us that we must have the Temple in order to keep Torah.

 

[annier]

Jer 7

21 Thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el: “You may as well eat the meat of your burnt offerings along with that of your sacrifices. 22 For I didn’t speak to your ancestors or give them orders concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices when I brought them out of the land of Egypt. 23 Rather, what I did order them was this: ‘Pay attention to what I say. Then I will be your God, and you will be my people. In everything, live according to the way that I order you, so that things will go well for you.’



Obedience is better than sacrifice. Abel offered an acceptable offering or sacrifice yet he was murdered by his older brother Cain.

What has that to do with what the law says in the verse I quoted?

 

[mercy1061]

What has that to do with what the law says in the verse I quoted?

Contrary to popular oppinion; a man must always accept the punishment for his sin, accepting your punishment has nothing to do with building a jewish Temple. The wages of sin is still death. In fact, if a man was found to be an idolater, or a woman found to be a prostitute, he/she was burned alive (or stoned to death) with the testimony of two or three witnesses. There remained no sacrifice for sin.

Heb 10
28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

 

[annier]

Jer 7

This word came to Yirmeyahu from Adonai: 2 “Stand at the gate of the house of Adonai and proclaim this word: ‘Listen to the word of Adonai, all you from Y’hudah who enter these gates to worship Adonai! 3 Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: “Improve your ways and actions, and I will let you stay in this place. 4 Don’t rely on that deceitful slogan, ‘The temple of Adonai, the temple of Adonai — these [buildings] are the temple of Adonai.’ 5 No, but if you really improve your ways and actions; if you really administer justice between people; 6 if you stop oppressing foreigners, orphans and widows; if you stop shedding innocent blood in this place; and if you stop following other gods, to your own harm; 7 then I will let you stay in this place, in the land I gave to your ancestors forever and ever. 8 Look! You are relying on deceitful words that can’t do you any good. 9 First you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, offer to Ba‘al and go after other gods that you haven’t known. 10 Then you come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, ‘We are saved’ — so that you can go on doing these abominations!

Look at what Israel did after the Temple was built. Did they keep Torah?

No, they thought only keeping certain parts of the Torah were enough torah, I guess.

Yet our famous "dispensationalists" tell us that we must have the Temple in order to keep Torah.

Not exactly, you can keep some Torah without the temple. I think all dispesationalists would agree you can keep some commands of the written Torah.

 

[mercy1061]

No, they thought only keeping certain parts of the Torah were enough torah, I guess.

You ever heard modern day or main stream christians say "we are saved" yet they continue to disregard Torah of Moses?

Not exactly, you can keep some Torah without the temple. I think all dispesationalists would agree you can keep some commands of the written Torah.

Disregarding parts of the Torah is the same as breaking the ENTIRE Torah.

James 2
10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all.

Dispensationalists who keep some parts of the Torah, is like driving a car with brand new tires with one small hole in each tire. Eventually those new tires will go flat. Do you like driving cars with flat tires?

 

[annier]

Contrary to popular oppinion; a man must always accept the punishment for his sin,

Christ accepts our punishment for us. He was not punished for being a sinner

accepting your punishment has nothing to do with building a jewish Temple.

I did not say it did actually. The temple has to do with expiation of sins, among the people.

The wages of sin is still death. In fact, if a man was found to be an idolater, or a woman found to be a prostitute, he/she was burned alive (or stoned to death) with the testimony of two or three witnesses. There remained no sacrifice for sin.

There was no sacrifice of the priesthood of Aaron for that sin, I agree.

 

[annier]

You ever heard modern day or main stream christians say "we are saved" yet they continue to disregard Torah of Moses?



Disregarding parts of the Torah is the same as breaking the ENTIRE Torah.

Well I just gave you a quote from Torah. So I was not disregarding it.

James 2
10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all.

Dispensationalists who keep some parts of the Torah, is like driving a car with brand new tires with one small hole in each tire. Eventually those new tires will go flat. Do you like driving cars with flat tires?

I think it just makes us Christians, or even as Judaism teaches,
Righteopus Gentiles, aka Noachides
But I agree, keeping parts of the written torah is not keeping the torah.

 

[mercy1061]

Christ accepts our punishment for us. He was not punished for being a sinner

Yeshua was punished because they wrongly accused him of being a sinner.

I did not say it did actually. The temple has to do with expiation of sins, among the people.

After Adonai's house was built the people of G-d confessed their sin. Adonai's house was built to be a house of prayer. Expiation means to make atonement; how does one make atonement PRIOR to the Temple?

2 Chron 6

21 Yes, listen to the pleas of your servant, and also those of your people Isra’el when they pray toward this place. Hear from where you live, from heaven; and when you hear, forgive!
22 “If a person sins against a fellow member of the community, and he is made to swear under oath, and he comes and swears before your altar in this house; 23 then hear from heaven, act and judge your servants, paying back the wicked, so that his way of life devolves on his own head, and vindicating the one who is right, giving him what his righteousness deserves.
24 “If your people Isra’el sin against you and in consequence are defeated by an enemy; then if they turn back to you, acknowledge your name, and pray and make their plea to you in this house, 25 hear from heaven, forgive the sin of your people Isra’el, and bring them back to the land you gave to them and their ancestors.
26 “When they sin against you, and in consequence the sky is shut, so that there is no rain; then if they pray toward this place, acknowledge your name and turn from their sin when you have brought them low; 27 hear in heaven, forgive the sin of your servants and of your people Isra’el — since you keep teaching them the good way by which they should live — and send down rain on your land, which you have given your people as their inheritance.

There was no sacrifice of the priesthood of Aaron for that sin, I agree.

There no longer remain a sacrifice for sins:

Heb 10
26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

 

[annier]

Yeshua was punished because they wrongly accused him of being a sinner.

Woah, wait a minute. Do not misunderstand. I thought we were talking about the punishment being death. Christ did not suffer the penalty of death because he was a sinner.

After Adonai's house was built the people of G-d confessed their sin. Adonai's house was built to be a house of prayer. Expiation means to make atonement; how does one make atonement PRIOR to the Temple?

2 Chron 6

21 Yes, listen to the pleas of your servant, and also those of your people Isra’el when they pray toward this place. Hear from where you live, from heaven; and when you hear, forgive!
22 “If a person sins against a fellow member of the community, and he is made to swear under oath, and he comes and swears before your altar in this house; 23 then hear from heaven, act and judge your servants, paying back the wicked, so that his way of life devolves on his own head, and vindicating the one who is right, giving him what his righteousness deserves.
24 “If your people Isra’el sin against you and in consequence are defeated by an enemy; then if they turn back to you, acknowledge your name, and pray and make their plea to you in this house, 25 hear from heaven, forgive the sin of your people Isra’el, and bring them back to the land you gave to them and their ancestors.
26 “When they sin against you, and in consequence the sky is shut, so that there is no rain; then if they pray toward this place, acknowledge your name and turn from their sin when you have brought them low; 27 hear in heaven, forgive the sin of your servants and of your people Isra’el — since you keep teaching them the good way by which they should live — and send down rain on your land, which you have given your people as their inheritance.

The above contains nothing that contradicts lev 26.

There no longer remain a sacrifice for sins:

Heb 10
26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

Hm hm.

 

[intojoy]

I don't think its good riddens, I love you.

Tell me you love me.

Xoxo but not you Dan c lol

 

[mercy1061]

Woah, wait a minute. Do not misunderstand. I thought we were talking about the punishment being death. Christ did not suffer the penalty of death because he was a sinner.

I said he was wrongly accused him of being a sinner, so they crucified him.

The above contains nothing that contradicts lev 26.

The ancient scriptures NEVER contradict themselves. Although there are certain conditions CLEARLY SPELLED OUT before sacrifices are limited to the temple. Sacrifices were performed out in the field; like Abraham did with Isaac.

Hm hm.

Sacrifices were limited to the temple because of the temple. However sacrifices are not "done away" or "abolished" because there is no temple. Sacrifices could be performed out in the field, as Moses did when he worshiped in the dessert.

"Circumcision on the 8th day" and "temple worship" can be performed out in the field without a temple.

 

[yedida]

A man can not become "uncircumcised" naturally; the foreskin does not grow back. As Pharisee Paul says a man should not seek to remove his circumcision; without surgery circumcised man would remain in his circumcision. Much in the same way, surgery I guess could change a man into a woman, but I do not agree with using modern medicine in this way. A man should remain in his calling.

Is there a reason why you always refer to Paul as Pharisee Paul? I don't think there's anyone reading these posts who doesn't know that Paul was of the sect of the Pharisees.

 

[yedida]

I said he was wrongly accused him of being a sinner, so they crucified him.



The ancient scriptures NEVER contradict themselves. Although there are certain conditions CLEARLY SPELLED OUT before sacrifices are limited to the temple. Sacrifices were performed out in the field; like Abraham did with Isaac.



Sacrifices were limited to the temple because of the temple. However sacrifices are not "done away" or "abolished" because there is no temple. Sacrifices could be performed out in the field, as Moses did when he worshiped in the dessert.

"Circumcision on the 8th day" and "temple worship" can be performed out in the field without a temple.

Abraham did not offer Isaac 'out in the field.' Re-read the text, he went up a mountain.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was punished because they wrongly accused him of being a sinner.

After Adonai's house was built the people of G-d confessed their sin. Adonai's house was built to be a house of prayer. Expiation means to make atonement; how does one make atonement PRIOR to the Temple?

2 Chron 6

21 Yes, listen to the pleas of your servant, and also those of your people Isra’el when they pray toward this place. Hear from where you live, from heaven; and when you hear, forgive! 22 “If a person sins against a fellow member of the community, and he is made to swear under oath, and he comes and swears before your altar in this house; 23 then hear from heaven, act and judge your servants, paying back the wicked, so that his way of life devolves on his own head, and vindicating the one who is right, giving him what his righteousness deserves. 24 “If your people Isra’el sin against you and in consequence are defeated by an enemy; then if they turn back to you, acknowledge your name, and pray and make their plea to you in this house, 25 hear from heaven, forgive the sin of your people Isra’el, and bring them back to the land you gave to them and their ancestors.26 “When they sin against you, and in consequence the sky is shut, so that there is no rain; then if they pray toward this place, acknowledge your name and turn from their sin when you have brought them low; 27 hear in heaven, forgive the sin of your servants and of your people Isra’el — since you keep teaching them the good way by which they should live — and send down rain on your land, which you have given your people as their inheritance.

There no longer remain a sacrifice for sins:

Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

IS this before or after the 70 x 7 of forgiveness?

 

[dnc101]

Xoxo but not you Dan c lol

LROL! I can live with that!

Dan C