You all take communion, right?
Do you view it as symbolic, like the Protestant Christians?
Do you view it as symbolic, like the Protestant Christians?
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Messianic Communion?
- Thread starter Chris†opher Paul
- Start date
Yes we do of course. When Yeshua started the "communion" it was part of the Passover Supper and is traditionally called the Seder.
Taking part in the Full Seder at Passover or partaking of communion is an act that reminds me of the Lord's full promise and fulfillment of it to the Jews. The angel of death first passed over the Israelites as detailed in the book of Exodus in Egypt over 3,000 years ago. Now we will once again be passed over from the second death because of the work completed in the Messiah.
On the Symbolic/literal thing I think varies a lot by congregations. However, I think the most common approach would be to neither treat it as purely symbolic nor treat it as literal in a physical sense. Rather it is a very spiritual and sacred act, where we are spiritually (if such dualism is allowed) partaking in the act. Hope that helps
I'm curious to see what the others have to say when they post again. 
Peace.
Taking part in the Full Seder at Passover or partaking of communion is an act that reminds me of the Lord's full promise and fulfillment of it to the Jews. The angel of death first passed over the Israelites as detailed in the book of Exodus in Egypt over 3,000 years ago. Now we will once again be passed over from the second death because of the work completed in the Messiah.
On the Symbolic/literal thing I think varies a lot by congregations. However, I think the most common approach would be to neither treat it as purely symbolic nor treat it as literal in a physical sense. Rather it is a very spiritual and sacred act, where we are spiritually (if such dualism is allowed) partaking in the act. Hope that helps
I'm curious to see what the others have to say when they post again.
Peace.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
Yesterday at 05:47 AM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #2 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652357#post652357)
Yes we do of course. When Yeshua started the "communion" it was part of the Passover Supper and is traditionally called the Seder.
Taking part in the Full Seder at Passover or partaking of communion is an act that reminds me of the Lord's full promise and fulfillment of it to the Jews. The angel of death first passed over the Israelites as detailed in the book of Exodus in Egypt over 3,000 years ago. Now we will once again be passed over from the second death because of the work completed in the Messiah.
On the Symbolic/literal thing I think varies a lot by congregations. However, I think the most common approach would be to neither treat it as purely symbolic nor treat it as literal in a physical sense. Rather it is a very spiritual and sacred act, where we are spiritually (if such dualism is allowed) partaking in the act. Hope that helps
I'm curious to see what the others have to say when they post again.
Peace.
I have a humble question. Does messianic Judiasm have a deposit of sacred scripture concerning the actual teachings and actions of Jesus during his time on earth? Does messianic Judiasm accept (or use) the traditional Christian New Testament?
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I speak for myself, but I´m a bit cautious with the Greek translation. I accept the Aramese and Hebrew translation the most.
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Well we have the same bible that all Christians use. I don't know of a group yet that uses the Apocrypha, but with all the wild and crazy differences among different groups I'd be surprised if nobody did.
There is a translation of the Bible called the Complete Jewish Bible which usues traditional Jewish terms in place of the "Christianized" ones that were used out of replacement theology. For instance its uses the word "Hanukkah" instead of "Festival of Lights" in the NT because it is referring to that Jewish holiday. Unfortunately, I don't own a copy. I did use the copy of the Jewish New Testament that I found my Jewish grandmother had hidden away for the longest time. Eventually I returned it to my mother though.
Many congregations use what Jewish traditions they deem appropriate and relevant as Messianic believers. Some also have very old Messianic traditions that have been handed down or recovered from the ages.
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I believe he means to say do Messianic Christians have the 72 books of the Catholic and Orthodox Canon, or the 66 books of the Reformed Canon of Scripture, the different texts being located in the Old Testament?
God Bless,
Neal
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MissytheButterfly
Back and Better than EVER!
Hello Christopher (nice name, it's going to be my son's name too!). I am a Messianic Gentile believer, I was formerly a Christian but found that Messianic belief supports my own personal beliefs, though I do still support Christianity, it's tenets, and Christians in brotherly love.
My husband and I celebrate Passover and Holy Communion. We celebrate Passover yearly, but we have Holy Communion every Saturday after our Sabbath service. We believe that celebrating communion or the Seder meal is a special way of showing the rememberance of what Yeshua (Jesus) has done for us.. his ultimate sacrifice.. I also learned in a book called Nelson's Illustrative Encyclopedia of Bible Facts, that the original believers broke bread together at each religious gathering so that's basically what we do.. we have wine and Matzah bread. We follow old testament and new testament readings to show the unity of both and have our small seder.
We consider it a special and sacred act. We do not believe that the wine and Matzah bread really turn into Yeshua and that we are consuming his body and blood. We do it as a rememberance but we consider it sacred, holy, and acceptable in the site of our God.
Blessings,
Missy
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MissytheButterfly
Back and Better than EVER!
To Talmid and anyone interested in Jewish Bibles
Hello Talmid.. I own the Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern. But I also own a more accurate Hebrew translation called the Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha by AFI. If you want either of these bibles go to www.borders.com and do a search for them and you can order them online. The aren't that expensive at all. Or simply go to your local Borders and ask them for these Bibles.
Among many Messianics the CJB is still considered a "christianized" bible that simply uses Jewish terminology (which nothing is wrong with that if one prefers it). But it seems in the more educated Messianic communities the Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha by AFI is being used. In my opinion, either are good including the KJV bible.. but if you want more accurate Hebrew language you may want to check out the OJBC. But be minded that the CJB is MUCH easier for those not well versed in Hebrew to read.
Also there is a edition of the Tanach that is very good called, The Stone Edition Tanach by Artscroll. I own this copy that you can also get from www.borders.com but it's sort of expensive.. approx 50 dollars but it is WELL WORTH THE MONEY believe me. Also the JPS (Jewish Publication Society Bible) is a fantastic edition of the Tanach. You can check out online scriptures from it here: http://www.hareidi.org/bible/index.html
Shalom All!
Missy
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um . . there is no greek TRANSLATION of teh NT nor in there a Hebrew TRANSLATION of the OT. Those are the original languages of both. just an FYI.
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Ok, so now that I have learned that you all take communion, I want to ask something else.
In the OT, the Jews had to actually eat the sacrificed lambs to make the atonement valid for each of them, correct? (I can provide Scripture if you want)
How does this come into play with Jesus saying that the bread was His actual flesh and that we had to eat it, else we don't have life in us?
In the OT, the Jews had to actually eat the sacrificed lambs to make the atonement valid for each of them, correct? (I can provide Scripture if you want)
How does this come into play with Jesus saying that the bread was His actual flesh and that we had to eat it, else we don't have life in us?
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MissytheButterfly
Back and Better than EVER!
Chris,
correction: Not all Messianics take communion. There are some Messianics that stick straight to the Orthodox Jewish way only observing Pesach (Passover). So no, not all Messianics take communion, but a lot do.
Chris, yeah I think I would like for you to provide the scripture, so I can comment further and see the exact context it's used in. Then I can comment further..
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That might take awhile, since it is all over Leviticus and Numbers. You know, an "unblemished male" offering that must be eaten by the sinners to make the atonement valid.
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MissytheButterfly
Back and Better than EVER!
I looked it up in the bible.. the phrase "unblemished male" but it's not in the KJV, translational issue I suspect.. but since you are Catholic, I did look it up in your bible.. the NASB, if I am not mistaken and it is listed as such. In the Stone Edition Tanach it is "unblemished lamb, or kid, a male.."
It seems to be in your bible.. here it is: Exodus 12:5
5 'Your lamb shall be (2) an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (NASB)
Anyway, let me attempt to answer your question.. if it's not good enough for you.. I'll try to elaborate when you find a scripture for what you are asking if I am not correct in about what your asking..
Missy's answer:
In Exodus 12 it is speaking about when Passover was instituted. The annual Feast of Passover commemorated the birth of Israel and her deliverance from Eygpt. It is also believed to point forward to the greater deliverance from the bondage of sin to be provided by the Messiah. In Passover, a lamb without blemish was selected and killed and the blood was placed on doorposts, and the lamb was roasted and eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs ( of course many Jews and Messianics, as well as some Christians still observe Passover with lamb, herbs, and unleavened bread).
This doesn't have relation to "atonement", that is a Yom Kippur thought which means "Atonement". Passover and Yom Kippur are 2 different feasts with different meanings.
For Orthodox or Traditional Jews the significance for Passover is:
1.) The Birth of Israel as a nation.
2.) Deliverance from bondage.
3.)Points to the deliverance from the bondage of sin by the Messiah, which of course they have not accepted is Yeshua of Nazareth.
Relation to the Messiah:
When John the Baptist introduced Yeshua (Jesus) to the nation, he recognized the Messiah as the fulfillment of the Passover lambs : "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29, 36).
One who believes in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah not only recognizes the fullfilment of the Passover sacrifice but one's own responsibility to "keep the feast" by living a sincere and truthful life. (I Cor 5:6-8).
While some believe during Yeshua's last passover he refers to actually eating his flesh... for Messianics it has no application for that and never has. Passover is to remember these things for Messianics :
1.) The Birth of Israel
2.) Deliverance from bondage from Eygpt(Exodus)
3.) Redemption from sin provided by the Messiah (Yeshua).
When Yeshua said at his final Passover with the Apostles or the "Last Supper" as some refer to it, he said, "Take, eat; this is my body...Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
This was not a literal saying to actually consume his flesh or to drink blood, at least for Messianics it isn't. For Messianics that observe the law eating flesh of a human wouldn't be considered kosher and certainly drinking blood is forbidden under the law in the Tanach (old testament). It would not even be considered as such for Messianics reguardless of whether they kept kosher regularly or not.
Yeshua's reference to eating his flesh and his blood is symbolic of him offering himself as the bread of heaven, this is not literal for the consumption of actual flesh and blood, nor does it mean or refer to Communion or any part of the Passover seder to turn into Yeshua's (Jesus') blood and literal flesh for Messianics. And furthermore would be almost unbelievable among Jews & Messianics alike that it could mean that Yeshua was actually telling one to consume flesh or blood since he was in fact a Jew by birth and of course as we know Yeshua was an observant Jew.
Reference to this
I presume you mean this:
John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. (NASB)
John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (KJV)
Yochanan 6
53 Therefore, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiah said unto them, Omein, omein, I say to you, unless you eat the [Seudas Moshiach] basar of the Ben HaAdam and drink [the Kiddush Cup of the Brit Chadasha in] dahm, you do not have Chayyim (Life) in yourselves.(Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha)
The verses prior to this come into play because Yeshua is explaining that he is the bread which comes from heaven and if anyone partakes of "this bread" he shall live forever.
Now of course the Jews were confused and puzzled at Yeshua's saying since they are forbidden to drink blood (Lev 17:11) but here the Jews missed the point of what Yeshua was conveying. Yeshua brings and sustains spiritual life but the Jews assumed he was referring to the physical life this is why it is considered a "hard-saying" in v.60 which it is clear to Messianics that he is not speaking of the physical but the spiritual..hence the belief among Messianics that Yeshua does not refer to the consumption of literal flesh and blood.
Well I hope this answers your question Chris, I apologize for the length of it, but I wanted to be clear as possible so that you would be able to understand what Messianics believe and why. If you don't understand something or need clarification, just ask.. I am sure I or one of the other Messianics will be happy to help.
Shalom,
Missy
It seems to be in your bible.. here it is: Exodus 12:5
5 'Your lamb shall be (2) an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (NASB)
Anyway, let me attempt to answer your question.. if it's not good enough for you.. I'll try to elaborate when you find a scripture for what you are asking if I am not correct in about what your asking..
Missy's answer:
In Exodus 12 it is speaking about when Passover was instituted. The annual Feast of Passover commemorated the birth of Israel and her deliverance from Eygpt. It is also believed to point forward to the greater deliverance from the bondage of sin to be provided by the Messiah. In Passover, a lamb without blemish was selected and killed and the blood was placed on doorposts, and the lamb was roasted and eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs ( of course many Jews and Messianics, as well as some Christians still observe Passover with lamb, herbs, and unleavened bread).
This doesn't have relation to "atonement", that is a Yom Kippur thought which means "Atonement". Passover and Yom Kippur are 2 different feasts with different meanings.
For Orthodox or Traditional Jews the significance for Passover is:
1.) The Birth of Israel as a nation.
2.) Deliverance from bondage.
3.)Points to the deliverance from the bondage of sin by the Messiah, which of course they have not accepted is Yeshua of Nazareth.
Relation to the Messiah:
When John the Baptist introduced Yeshua (Jesus) to the nation, he recognized the Messiah as the fulfillment of the Passover lambs : "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29, 36).
One who believes in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah not only recognizes the fullfilment of the Passover sacrifice but one's own responsibility to "keep the feast" by living a sincere and truthful life. (I Cor 5:6-8).
While some believe during Yeshua's last passover he refers to actually eating his flesh... for Messianics it has no application for that and never has. Passover is to remember these things for Messianics :
1.) The Birth of Israel
2.) Deliverance from bondage from Eygpt(Exodus)
3.) Redemption from sin provided by the Messiah (Yeshua).
When Yeshua said at his final Passover with the Apostles or the "Last Supper" as some refer to it, he said, "Take, eat; this is my body...Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
This was not a literal saying to actually consume his flesh or to drink blood, at least for Messianics it isn't. For Messianics that observe the law eating flesh of a human wouldn't be considered kosher and certainly drinking blood is forbidden under the law in the Tanach (old testament). It would not even be considered as such for Messianics reguardless of whether they kept kosher regularly or not.
Yeshua's reference to eating his flesh and his blood is symbolic of him offering himself as the bread of heaven, this is not literal for the consumption of actual flesh and blood, nor does it mean or refer to Communion or any part of the Passover seder to turn into Yeshua's (Jesus') blood and literal flesh for Messianics. And furthermore would be almost unbelievable among Jews & Messianics alike that it could mean that Yeshua was actually telling one to consume flesh or blood since he was in fact a Jew by birth and of course as we know Yeshua was an observant Jew.
Reference to this
I presume you mean this:
John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. (NASB)
John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (KJV)
Yochanan 6
53 Therefore, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiah said unto them, Omein, omein, I say to you, unless you eat the [Seudas Moshiach] basar of the Ben HaAdam and drink [the Kiddush Cup of the Brit Chadasha in] dahm, you do not have Chayyim (Life) in yourselves.(Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha)
The verses prior to this come into play because Yeshua is explaining that he is the bread which comes from heaven and if anyone partakes of "this bread" he shall live forever.
Now of course the Jews were confused and puzzled at Yeshua's saying since they are forbidden to drink blood (Lev 17:11) but here the Jews missed the point of what Yeshua was conveying. Yeshua brings and sustains spiritual life but the Jews assumed he was referring to the physical life this is why it is considered a "hard-saying" in v.60 which it is clear to Messianics that he is not speaking of the physical but the spiritual..hence the belief among Messianics that Yeshua does not refer to the consumption of literal flesh and blood.
Well I hope this answers your question Chris, I apologize for the length of it, but I wanted to be clear as possible so that you would be able to understand what Messianics believe and why. If you don't understand something or need clarification, just ask.. I am sure I or one of the other Messianics will be happy to help.
Shalom,
Missy
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