Marrying cousins

[Avniel]

In my family there is this tradition that has been born in America. This tradition is two cousins with different last names marrying. The funny thing is this is a business marriage, it's a nonsexual marriage. I thought about it because one of my little cousins got married recently to another one of my cousins.

Basically my family is Jamaican and most of my family members come from poverty. They come to America and work hard but often times the American government doesn't want us here. This is due to heavy drug distribution the American Jamaican community does due to cheap prices of cocain in Jamaica. The thing is there is a trend of business marriages to keep loved ones in the state to take care of family members out of the country.

My question is if two people have what I consider a fake marriage I wonder are they committing adultery when they date their real boyfriends and girlfriends or are they just lying??

Who is responsible for unions God or man???

We already know lying is a sin but that very surface I want to dig a bit deeper.

 

[LinkH]

Yes, if they marry their cousins and sleep with someone else, that is adultery. If you marry your cousin, you should have sex with your cousin. (sounds gross, I know, but it's true.)

So they marry cousins as a part of a green card thing?

My wife is from an Asian people group where traditionally cousins not from the patriarchal side of the family with the same family name were considered prime candidates for marriage. Now, a lot of modern people from that people-group don't go for it, at least not in the city, but it still happens. In fact, I was adopted into the tribe by being given my father-in-law's sister's husband's last name and being considered his son for cultural purposes. So in a cultural sense, I am considered my wife's cousin, though it's not blood relation. Her sister married some kind of cousin. She had a child out of wedlock and hadn't married by the time she was in her 30's so they set her up with a cousin. My wife's cousin, and my 'adopted' sister married one of her cousins. He seems like a really decent, responsible guy.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

In my family there is this tradition that has been born in America. This tradition is two cousins with different last names marrying. The funny thing is this is a business marriage, it's a nonsexual marriage. I thought about it because one of my little cousins got married recently to another one of my cousins.

Basically my family is Jamaican and most of my family members come from poverty. They come to America and work hard but often times the American government doesn't want us here. This is due to heavy drug distribution the American Jamaican community does due to cheap prices of cocain in Jamaica. The thing is there is a trend of business marriages to keep loved ones in the state to take care of family members out of the country.

My question is if two people have what I consider a fake marriage I wonder are they committing adultery when they date their real boyfriends and girlfriends or are they just lying??

Who is responsible for unions God or man???

We already know lying is a sin but that very surface I want to dig a bit deeper.

That's a tough one. In my sheltered life, I tend towards believing such things should not be done. But then again, I don't live in their shoes.

 

[seeingeyes]

I think that there is no reason that a 'business' marriage should not be considered a 'real' marriage. It wasn't until quite recently that hearts and fluffy puppies were considered the only reason to get married. There have probably been more 'business' marriages in history than the kind we think of today.

 

[MessianicMommy]

"They come to America and work hard but often times the American government doesn't want us here. ...The thing is there is a trend of business marriages to keep loved ones in the state to take care of family members out of the country."

Uhm, this is fraud - and they could get in some major trouble for this.

And if they are cheating on each other after getting married - sex or not, imho, it'd be the same if they were. They entered into the contractual agreement of marriage - so, yeah.. really not ethical at all.

 

[Avniel]

I think some posters are missing the point of my thread. Is it immoral of course it's lying however the bible says judge not others or you shall be judged.


In Jamaica right now when the elections comes the politicians give kids guns to kill each other. Most drug cartels in Jamaica are sponsored by politicians and most political figures are backed by drug dollars. In a place where homosexuals are tied up and burned, where police don't arrest but kill gang members and death is right around the corner people will do anything to escape and do better for their family. People think Chicago is dangerous it's nothing compared to the danger in Jamaica.

I can't judge those people that want to escape that for a chance at having a successful life sorry.

This thread is about what is a real marriage or not I can't judge others and what they would do to escape poverty.

My question is what makes a real marriage and is it cheating if two people marry and understand that it's not a legit marriage can they commit adultery.

 

[Avniel]

"They come to America and work hard but often times the American government doesn't want us here. ...The thing is there is a trend of business marriages to keep loved ones in the state to take care of family members out of the country."

Uhm, this is fraud - and they could get in some major trouble for this.

This isnt the American politics section this is the marriage forum please stay on topic

And if they are cheating on each other after getting married - sex or not, imho, it'd be the same if they were. They entered into the contractual agreement of marriage - so, yeah.. really not ethical at all.

But isnt sex what consummates a marriage. If one gets married and doesn't have sex is one not married? Doesn't God look at the heart if two people are family and there is no possible sexual relationship how can they be married?

I don't think a legal document makes you married in God's eyes

 

[LinkH]

I can't judge those people that want to escape that for a chance at having a successful life sorry.

This thread is about what is a real marriage or not I can't judge others and what they would do to escape poverty.

My question is what makes a real marriage and is it cheating if two people marry and understand that it's not a legit marriage can they commit adultery.

If they get married, why would it not be a legitimate marriage?

It's okay if they marry their cousins to escape poverty. But it isn't right to commit adultery after they get married.

 

[Avniel]

If they get married, why would it not be a legitimate marriage?

It's okay if they marry their cousins to escape poverty. But it isn't right to commit adultery after they get married.

Link h I think you are one of the few people that get the point.

I don't think one can really marry someone that both parties know that the marriage is a lie. How can a lie be blessed by God as a union? Then when the two get divorced that another sin?

I don't see the logic in that.

I just thought it was a interesting conversation


Oh I don't think it would be a legit marriage because both parties understand the marriage as being fake, a lie also the marriage is a court documented marriage just the signing of a paper.


God vs state

 

[MessianicMommy]

But isnt sex what consummates a marriage. If one gets married and doesn't have sex is one not married? Doesn't God look at the heart if two people are family and there is no possible sexual relationship how can they be married?

I don't think a legal document makes you married in God's eyes

I wasn't talking American Politics thank you very much. Try not to assume so much about a person's motives when they reply.

I'm legally married to a German. I am an American... our children are dual citizens in both countries.

Had I done it for a green card, or he done it for a green card (for either country) it is fraud. People who married on the sake of a "lie" are what make it so very difficult for those of us who did not.
This is why we both had to be interviewed and we had to have an interpreter though I fully understood what happened at our wedding in the offices of the justice of the peace. It was to ensure that a) I, nor he were not forced into marriage b) it was not fraud

Sex is not only what consummates a marriage.
This is why Joseph saw to "privily" (privately) put Mary away when she was found pregnant and it was not his child. His other choice was stoning, as she was legally married to him. At the time, a Ketubah and bride price was agreed upon, and it was considered just as legal as the signed paperwork we now have in the countries influenced by Western policies. Where do you think people got the idea of Marriage documents, when before - it was simply documented either in the church or your family bibles?


Whether they "lied" to themselves to have a marriage of convenience or not, they are legally married and therefore tied to each other until they divorce or die..... Therefore, seeing other people = adultery, plain and simple.

 

[LinkH]

Link h I think you are one of the few people that get the point.

I don't think one can really marry someone that both parties know that the marriage is a lie. How can a lie be blessed by God as a union? Then when the two get divorced that another sin?

if two people marry for green card reasons, and then they say, "Wow, that was stupid. Marriage is supposed to be a holy thing. We got married, so let's honor the commitment" and they repent and start to sleep together and live together as husband and wife, I can see how God can bless that.

Oh I don't think it would be a legit marriage because both parties understand the marriage as being fake, a lie also the marriage is a court documented marriage just the signing of a paper.

When it comes to legit marriages, I'd be more concerned with issues like the bride's father's approval and whether the two were allowed to marry over marriage & divorce reasons or being too closely related. (Not cousins, but father-daughter, brother-sister, etc.)

Let's say the families think they are getting married, give their consent, they have an actual wedding, but they have a secret agreement to live separately, have their own lovers on the side, and to get divorced in two years and one day, they are still married and if they follow through with it, they will be committing adultery. They should just move in together, consummate the marriage, and live their lives out together.

I'm curious. Let's say two cousins you knew got 'set up' by family just for the greencard, but started sleeping together and living together. What would the family, in your culture, think? Would they think it was sinful, or would it be accepted, since they are legally married?

 

[MessianicMommy]

yep.

 

[keep on believing]

I think your question is valid. As a marriage it is a fraud yes. As it stands before God the creator of marriage, ummmm I'd be afraid to think of what his thoughts are. Marriage was designed by God not man. If it is for business it is still marriage. If it is cousins that is still irrelevant. It is a Covenant entered into, a covenant of God.

 

[SiyoNqoba]

Yes, they are commiting adultery if they have boyfriends or girlfriends while married.

Up until roughly the 1800s, marriage was more of a financial contract than about love. People married for convenience, or to strengthen the family wealth. For example, the royal daughters in ancient Egypt never married outside of their family, so that the land and claim to the throne stayed within the family. Even in Biblical times, marriage was not about love, but about convenience, finances and politics.

So the marriages you speak of are essentially similar to marriages in Biblical times. Sleeping with someone other than your spouse was adultery then, and it's adultery now.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I think some posters are missing the point of my thread. Is it immoral of course it's lying however the bible says judge not others or you shall be judged.


In Jamaica right now when the elections comes the politicians give kids guns to kill each other. Most drug cartels in Jamaica are sponsored by politicians and most political figures are backed by drug dollars. In a place where homosexuals are tied up and burned, where police don't arrest but kill gang members and death is right around the corner people will do anything to escape and do better for their family. People think Chicago is dangerous it's nothing compared to the danger in Jamaica.

I can't judge those people that want to escape that for a chance at having a successful life sorry.

This thread is about what is a real marriage or not I can't judge others and what they would do to escape poverty.

My question is what makes a real marriage and is it cheating if two people marry and understand that it's not a legit marriage can they commit adultery.

That's why I put the disclaimer in my post.

 

[Avniel]

if two people marry for green card reasons, and then they say, "Wow, that was stupid. Marriage is supposed to be a holy thing. We got married, so let's honor the commitment" and they repent and start to sleep together and live together as husband and wife, I can see how God can bless that.



When it comes to legit marriages, I'd be more concerned with issues like the bride's father's approval and whether the two were allowed to marry over marriage & divorce reasons or being too closely related. (Not cousins, but father-daughter, brother-sister, etc.)

Let's say the families think they are getting married, give their consent, they have an actual wedding, but they have a secret agreement to live separately, have their own lovers on the side, and to get divorced in two years and one day, they are still married and if they follow through with it, they will be committing adultery. They should just move in together, consummate the marriage, and live their lives out together.

I'm curious. Let's say two cousins you knew got 'set up' by family just for the greencard, but started sleeping together and living together. What would the family, in your culture, think? Would they think it was sinful, or would it be accepted, since they are legally married?

That would be frowned on. They probably would be considered social deviants and ridiculed or even cut off from their family entirely

 

[LinkH]

If cousin marriage is so taboo with Jamaicans-- for sex and companionship, but not for visa purposes-- then why don't two families swap out cousin. My cousin will marry your cousin, and your other cousin will marry my other cousin, instead of my cousin will marry my cousin.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Whew...

Well, that'd be one of those situations where I'd defer to those involved and their relationship with God over doing the right thing. I can't even begin to conceive of right and wrong in a scenario that's only created out of the natural and totally understandable desire to escape a life that nobody should be forced into, and is so far beyond any possible "worst case scenario" I could ever have in my life.

Having been to the BVI and staying off-resorts, I've see what kind of life people lead and the politics that surround even the most basic of human rights and activities. And I know for a fact that Tortola and the other parts of the BVI aren't half as bad as places like Jamaica are as the BVI is sort of supported by the motherland, as it were. I remembered being shocked, downright shocked, when I saw people from Tortola being openly hostile and discriminatory to people who were Jamacian, and after I asked my landlord, she explained the whole mess. It was only then that I found out the atrocities that people deal with there.

So I think the answer to this one is best to the family and God, not to strangers on the outside of the situation.

 

[Avniel]

If cousin marriage is so taboo with Jamaicans-- for sex and companionship, but not for visa purposes-- then why don't two families swap out cousin. My cousin will marry your cousin, and your other cousin will marry my other cousin, instead of my cousin will marry my cousin.

Probably the amount of money that would be needed to pay off the other family

 

[SilkRainn]

It seems simple to me. I think a cousin is far removed enough to have sex with. It's still incest, but at that point its ok.

As for the fake marriage thing, there is a difference between being married for the sake of the law, and being married for the sake of romance and family planning.

If two people have a fake marriage, and both know its a fake marriage, then date people they have romantic interest in, I would not think of it as adultery. There would be a strict understanding of "Im married to you for legal reasons, there are no romantic reasons for our marriage" for this to happen ethically though.