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"Man cannot Save Himself" Bible Verses

Karma2Grace

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First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth





Man is not divine, but a sinner (Romans 3:23).

Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).

Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).

Man loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Man is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).

Man is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).

Man is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

Man is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).



It is apparent that man cannot save himself, I can challenge all the believers of pantheism and polytheism to comment about their salvation, I think every one agree that they are not saved (and they are trying) it simply proved that the nature of man is not divine!



Man cannot earn his salvation and God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness must include justice. Works (Good Karma) are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works so that one can boast.” ‘Salvation by works’ systems believes that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good. These belief systems hold that good and evil balance one another out, somewhat like a scale; if you’re good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then you will be saved. Jesus teaches that the only standard acceptable to God is absolute perfection. Everyone who has sinned falls short of this perfection. No amount of good works can make amends. Therefore it is impossible for any man to save himself!
 

sidhe

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Hmm...as I don't believe in sin, and thus don't see a need for salvation, I guess you could safely say the argument is irrelevent.

Secondly, I don't know that man is not divine. If we're able to interact with the spiritual world, then we must have some similarity to it. So your assertion that "everyone" knows this is a false premise.
 
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TooCurious

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Well that's an awfully depressing thought. I, on the other hand, feel that there is the potential for both good and bad in humanity, and it is up to each individual person to choose which to pursue at any given moment.

And by the way, quoting bible verses at people who presumably don't believe in the spiritual truth of the bible probably isn't going to get you very far.
 
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Saraswati-Devi

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TooCurious said:
Well that's an awfully depressing thought. I, on the other hand, feel that there is the potential for both good and bad in humanity, and it is up to each individual person to choose which to pursue at any given moment.

And by the way, quoting bible verses at people who presumably don't believe in the spiritual truth of the bible probably isn't going to get you very far.

:thumbsup: Good post!
 
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Karma2Grace

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sidhe said:
Hmm...as I don't believe in sin, and thus don't see a need for salvation, I guess you could safely say the argument is irrelevent.
Wake up from your meditation and Come to reality!



sidhe said:
Secondly, I don't know that man is not divine. If we're able to interact with the spiritual world, then we must have some similarity to it. So your assertion that "everyone" knows this is a false premise.




You don't need to be good to contact the spiritual world, there is a darker side which was controlled by Evil, Anybody who don't care about sin will ended up there


Hope the following testimoney would help

http://www.carm.org/testimonies/abigail.htm
 
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Karma2Grace

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MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Did God create man in his own image ? And man is not divine? So God is not divine...

You can creat a image of 'Sudarshan' in Mud, Do you think the image is human??

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
The sinner concept is almost nauseous.

But that is a reality; Truth always hurts when you decided to disagree with it
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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Karma2Grace said:
You can creat a image of 'Sudarshan' in Mud, Do you think the image is human??


So you are mud? No thanks, I would remain a true image of God.

karma2grace said:
But that is a reality; Truth always hurts when you decided to disagree with it

Truth is always sweet. Lie is always bitter. The sweet truth man is divine and if you dont want that....well......;)
 
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Fuzzy

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Karma2Grace said:
First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth
This is assuming the Bible is regarded as "truth."

Karma2Grace said:
I can challenge all the believers of pantheism and polytheism to comment about their salvation, I think every one agree that they are not saved (and they are trying) it simply proved that the nature of man is not divine!
I don't need to be saved, I'm not trying to be saved, and Man's divine nature is established through his esotericism, self-realization, and altruism.


Karma2Grace said:
Man cannot earn his salvation and God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness must include justice.

So, God wants to make a deal. How base. How crude. How non-spiritual.
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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rahul_sharma said:
So by grace you are saved.

May i know what you do to get this Grace? Do you just accept Jesus and remain like Hitler or you really do something for this grace?

Rahul,

Our school beleives in salvation by grace. But our concept is not a diluted version of it - of just a faith in a saviour.

After discharging wordly duties, a Srivaishnavite makes a conscious self surrender to Lord Vishnu. From this point, he completely stops taking responsibility on himself and gives himself up to the Lord.

He will not takes medicines even on the pain of death, he will not defend himself in lawsuits, he will not protect himself from enemies and leaves everything to the Lord, and dances to the Lord's tune. That is what we beleive makes man fit for getting the grace of God. That is complete definition of grace and surrender as far we are concerned.:)
 
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sidhe

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Karma2Grace said:
Wake up from your meditation and Come to reality!




Prove that you're describing reality.



You don't need to be good to contact the spiritual world, there is a darker side which was controlled by Evil, Anybody who don't care about sin will ended up there

I never said anything about "good" or "evil"...I simply said that there must be a divine spark to man if man is to be able to relate to the divine.


Hope the following testimoney would help

http://www.carm.org/testimonies/abigail.htm

It did. It showed me some people can't deal with the spiritual realm in a reasoned manner.
 
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Karma2Grace

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K2G, why should I believe anything the Bible says?
We always have to believe the truth, I never seen from the space that the earth is a sphere but i belived it because

1 It cohere with the reality (if i start from one place and travel on the opposite direction, I will reach the same place)
2 From the Flight, At least i was able to see the roundness of the earth
3.My other actions based on the belief that earth is a spere were proven right



Similarly i believe in bible because of the following:


Bible is unique because it was written by 40 authors over the period of 1600 years (40 Generations) from three continents in three languages.

It was written for different moods and include all kinds of controversial topics (such as origin, end of man and universe, nature of man...Etc)...YET THERE IS A HARMONY AND CONTINUETY BETWEEN DIFFERENT BOOKS.

The bible is full of Prophecy, if you were to take the prophecy of Daniel

Daniel is one of Jewish captive worked along with Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonian king 605 BC – 562 BC)

"Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation; for it pertains to the appointed time of the end. As for the ram which you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power." (Daniel 8:15-22)

He was clearly prophesizing about Alexander the great (356 BC – 323 BC) and his fall.
It was 250 years before!

Isaiah (800 BC) who worked with Uzziah (or Azariah) prophesized about Jesus Christ

On His Birth:


Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel”

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, and The Prince of Peace.”

Isaiah 9:7 “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this”

On His Death (Isaiah clearly depicts that Jesus will carry our sins on the cross) :

Isaiah 53:3 “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he hath borne our grieves, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.”

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed"

If you noticed that the bible is always freely referring the Kings and rulers among the period and it was well proven by archeology and history. It is a complete book which freely deals from Origin to End with various prophetic words which became and becoming true!!

Here is why i don't belive Vedas and Gita:

The problem with Vedas is that the actual physical manuscripts we have are very late compared to the time of composition; there is about a 3,000 year gap from 1500 B.C., the date of "writing" and 1500 A.D., the date of the earliest genuine manuscripts. (By contrast, the gap for the Old Testament is a lot smaller since the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls, the NT has negligible time gap of 20 years!)


The concept behind Vedas is same as Cannanian/Babylonian Paganism; It was brought down into India by Persians as Vedas



The 'purnas' which contains the lifestyle of Hindu avatars reminding the illicit lifestyle of the Fallen Angels referred in bible



When Gita said "Man is divine" it is like a Joke to me, Because that is not a reality!










 
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Karma2Grace

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Fuzzy said:
This is assuming the Bible is regarded as "truth."
I made a post to validate my claim that why bible is true, Now it is your turn why do you think man is devine?

Fuzzy said:
I don't need to be saved, I'm not trying to be saved, and Man's divine nature is established through his esotericism, self-realization, and altruism.
So morality is replaced with mysticism? , BTW i heard you are saying self-realization, What did you realized? Are you a god or sinner?
 
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TooCurious

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Karma2Grace said:
The bible is full of Prophecy, [...]


Let me try to phrase this in a way that's not offensive, because it's not my intention to offend...

Do you also believe in Nostradamus?

Furthermore, how can you be certain that none of these "prophecies" were retrofitted by later editors?

Karma2Grace said:
When Gita said "Man is divine" it is like a Joke to me, Because that is not a reality!

You realize that any of us who don't believe in the bible can turn around and say exactly the same thing to you. I doubt you'd appreciate someone calling the bible a joke. It's not my religion, but if it were, I'd be offended by what you said.
 
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sidhe

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Karma2Grace said:
Bible is unique because it was written by 40 authors over the period of 1600 years (40 Generations) from three continents in three languages.

It was written for different moods and include all kinds of controversial topics (such as origin, end of man and universe, nature of man...Etc)...YET THERE IS A HARMONY AND CONTINUETY BETWEEN DIFFERENT BOOKS.


That's not proof of veracity...that's proof of good editing. ;)

Isaiah (800 BC) who worked with Uzziah (or Azariah) prophesized about Jesus Christ

On His Birth:

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel”

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, and The Prince of Peace.”

Isaiah 9:7 “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this”

On His Death (Isaiah clearly depicts that Jesus will carry our sins on the cross) :

Isaiah 53:3 “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he hath borne our grieves, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.”

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed"


Well...that's interesting. But there's currently a huge debate as to whether or not Isaiah was talking about a single man or the nation of Israel in that prophecy.

It would be easy to craft the Gospels to fit Isaiah, after all. Again, it's all in the editing.
 
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rahul_sharma

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MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Rahul,

Our school beleives in salvation by grace. But our concept is not a diluted version of it - of just a faith in a saviour.

After discharging wordly duties, a Srivaishnavite makes a conscious self surrender to Lord Vishnu. From this point, he completely stops taking responsibility on himself and gives himself up to the Lord.

He will not takes medicines even on the pain of death, he will not defend himself in lawsuits, he will not protect himself from enemies and leaves everything to the Lord, and dances to the Lord's tune. That is what we beleive makes man fit for getting the grace of God. That is complete definition of grace and surrender as far we are concerned.:)

True and this Grace is obtained through Karma called BHAKTI KARMA.

so its Bhaktikarma2Grace :)
 
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Zen_Woof

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Karma2Grace said:
First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth

Man is not divine, but a sinner (Romans 3:23).

Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).

Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).

Man loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Man is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).

Man is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).

Man is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

Man is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).



It is apparent that man cannot save himself, I can challenge all the believers of pantheism and polytheism to comment about their salvation, I think every one agree that they are not saved (and they are trying) it simply proved that the nature of man is not divine!



Man cannot earn his salvation and God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness must include justice. Works (Good Karma) are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works so that one can boast.” ‘Salvation by works’ systems believes that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good. These belief systems hold that good and evil balance one another out, somewhat like a scale; if you’re good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then you will be saved. Jesus teaches that the only standard acceptable to God is absolute perfection. Everyone who has sinned falls short of this perfection. No amount of good works can make amends. Therefore it is impossible for any man to save himself!

Hello.

Why is it that Christians go on and on about man's sinful nature and never about his divine nature ... the nature that helps and loves? :scratch:

And what exactly are we saving ourselves from? A hell that God created to punish us for the nature He imbued us with? That's a little bizarre, don't you think?

Mu.

Metta,
ZW
 
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