Lutherans and gifts of the Spirit

[Bellicus]

I've been going to a Lutheran church for a while now, and I notice that they are teaching the bible like it is without adding anything to it, and also they try to get things done like mission etc. And all in all I've only met great people there that serves God in a good way, specially I like the priest that really is burning for God and have a lot of good things to teach, he is a good example for everyone in the church.

But I used to go to a Pentecostal church earlier, and I notice that the main difference is that the place I am now does not have anyone that speaks in tongues, and I never hear anything about prophecies and healing etc. Is this common to Lutheran churches? Its a more liberal church then most I think, and it does not get any support from the government, like the Lutheran state-churches, and I do think of it as a Spirit-filled church. I really like the church, but have to admit that I miss to hear about the gifts of the Spirit. From what I know this is something biblical, that should be present in a church.

 

[DaRev]

The main difference between the Lutheran Church and Pentacostalism is the emphasis on the "gifts of the spirit" and their use. St. Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 12 that not everyone has the same gifts. In chapter 14 he tells us that the gifts were given for the building up of the Church. There was a time in the history of the Christian Church where the gift of tongues (for example) was necessary in order for the Gospel to be spread into all nations. Now that the word of God is available in practically every language, the gift of tongues is rarely seen anymore. Gifts of these types were for the building up of the Church.

The Lutheran Church does not emphasize such things because they have a tendency to distract from Christ and the Gospel. This was a problem even in Paul's time. People would stand in the Church and babble in some language in order to draw attention to themselves. This was not at all edifying to the Church. It was intended only to bring glory upon oneself.

 

[Bellicus]

DaRev: I agree with the babbling. In the pentecostal church I visited everyone talked in tongues and no one translated, and of course this made no sense and made me wonder what kind of place I had come to. It is also unbiblical.

But I disagree about what you say about gifts of the Spirit as something that distracts from Christ and the gospel.

1 cor 14:22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Here Paul describes that the gift of prophecy actually got a good use.

I also disagree about the idea that gifts of the Spirit used to be something that belonged to the days of the apostles, since this make a lot of Christians into liars. A lot of people can tell about being healed, and while some people often suggest that this is a kind of occultism, Jesus clearly explained that Satan does not work against himself, and also that anyone that is not against Him, is for him.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

DaRev: I agree with the babbling. In the pentecostal church I visited everyone talked in tongues and no one translated, and of course this made no sense and made me wonder what kind of place I had come to. It is also unbiblical.

But I disagree about what you say about gifts of the Spirit as something that distracts from Christ and the gospel.

1 cor 14:22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Here Paul describes that the gift of prophecy actually got a good use.

I also disagree about the idea that gifts of the Spirit used to be something that belonged to the days of the apostles, since this make a lot of Christians into liars. A lot of people can tell about being healed, and while some people often suggest that this is a kind of occultism, Jesus clearly explained that Satan does not work against himself, and also that anyone that is not against Him, is for him.

What's a Norwegian doing dabbling in Pentecostalism? Come back home!

 

[DaRev]

I never said that such healings and such do not happen today. But to place the emphasis on them as do the Pentacostals do indeed distract from Christ and the Gospel. Many in the Pentacostal circles teach that if you do not possess such gifts then you are not a true Christian and are not saved. That is totally unbiblical and a travesty.

Here's a document that will help explain the Lutheran position on such things.
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/charismatic.pdf

 

[Tofferer]

I remember visiting a pentecostal church in Hawaii in 1997 in which they taught that if you didn't speak in tongues you were unsaved. Truthfully, I was taken aback by this. As for the prophesy thing, much of what I heard has either failed to manifest or it was something of a non-consequential nature. I don't think a "prophet" needs to remind me of my sinful nature. What is needed is the forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus, which I didn't hear anyone speak. I think that is one thing all Christians need to hear, that our sins are forgiven. Nobody needs to hear that because they do not "possess" a certain gift they are unsaved.

 

[JCFantasy23]

When at a revival that was basically pentecostal, the man told us that once Jesus was accepted in your life, then EVERYONe would either speak in tongues or hear the words in their head. ?? My best friend used to attend a pentecostal church as well, and she was taken aside and they kept 'working on her' to get her to speak in tongues, when she kept telling them she couldn't do it. She just started blabbering and the woman was like, There you go!, but she wasn't speaking in tongues, just blabbering to spout something out. She let the woman believe that just to fit in and please the woman I guess.

 

[Tofferer]

I've heard of that before. Sadly, I don't find is surprising, rather I find disturbing. The truth is being supplanted with a lie.

 

[Korah]

When at a revival that was basically pentecostal, the man told us that once Jesus was accepted in your life, then EVERYONe would either speak in tongues or hear the words in their head. ?? My best friend used to attend a pentecostal church as well, and she was taken aside and they kept 'working on her' to get her to speak in tongues, when she kept telling them she couldn't do it. She just started blabbering and the woman was like, There you go!, but she wasn't speaking in tongues, just blabbering to spout something out. She let the woman believe that just to fit in and please the woman I guess.

Yes, that's the bad side of Pentecostalism. Worse is when they tell you you have to speak in tongues or you're not saved. But that's what you usually expect only from the United Pentecostal Church or other Oneness Pentecostals.
After my baptism as an adult in RC in 1969 I got lost in Rightist ideology (reminds me of conservative Lutheranism today), but fortunately I got baptized in the Spirit in 1977 and was in the Charismatic Renewal in the RC until I lost faith in RC in 1992. I can't say anything bad about the Charismatic Renewal in RC, I loved it! Well, two bad things. In the early days, the 1970's, lots of RCs in it became narrow Protestants and left RC. Later in the movement, around 1990, those in RC who were still in it tended to over-emphasize Mary. (I never liked statues or Marian hymns even when I was RC. For all practical purposes many RC do worship Mary, particularly if they're not culturally Americans.)
But no, I don't find any tongues-speaking in Lutheranism today. More's the pity!
Korah

 

[RadMan]

When at a revival that was basically pentecostal, the man told us that once Jesus was accepted in your life, then EVERYONe would either speak in tongues or hear the words in their head. ?? My best friend used to attend a pentecostal church as well, and she was taken aside and they kept 'working on her' to get her to speak in tongues, when she kept telling them she couldn't do it. She just started blabbering and the woman was like, There you go!, but she wasn't speaking in tongues, just blabbering to spout something out. She let the woman believe that just to fit in and please the woman I guess.

That's almost the same experience I had but with the CHarismatics. They asked after a service one time of anyone wanted to speak in the Spirit to stay after the service and we would be shown how. They didn't emphasize that not everyone could recieve the gift, but that eveyone did. They told us all to just start speaking nonsense and that eventually we would develope the gift. Funny thing was that when the pastor spoke in tongues eveyone immitated his sounds. During the next service it sounded like there were a bunch of pastor clones running around sounding the same as he did. Sounded like a modified yodel.

Many people would speak in tongues at the service and people would pretent that it was prophecy but then no one would interpret. After a while I just thought it was a joke and left the church.

The only problem is is that certain groups abuse tongues and prophecy and ruin it for the ones that are really doing tongues and prophecy. Since no one can tell the difference then it ruins it for the everyone. It's like the devil took a good thing and twisted it around for his own purposes. To delude would be Christians that are brought into the church under false pretenses.

Now after reading the Bible verse that says that the "jews needed signs and wonders....." I thinking that that's what the miracles and speaking in tongues was really for like DaRev mentioned.

 

[latebloomer]

I don't really understand when I read/hear about people talking about "water baptism" and "baptism in the Spirit". As far as I'm concerned, they're the same thing. Seems to me like getting Law and Gospel mixed up. Once when I was in high school, I was with a group of friends and somehow we ended up with this pentecostal fellow one evening. (At the Presbyterian Church fireside room!?) I think he was the pastor of a pentecostal church. He laid hands on a couple of my friends and they eventually started "speaking in tongues". There was no one to interpret and we didn't really understand what was happening. Scared the daylights out of me. Mom and the Presbyterian pastor (my friend's dad) were not too happy when they heard about it. I think it scared my friends too. We never went anywhere near that fellow again.

 

[Aibrean]

I believe in prophecy but separate from speaking in tongues.

 

[BigNorsk]

If someone comes into a Lutheran church and sees all those people exercising the gifts of the Spirit and then gets bothered because he doesn't see everyone and everything revolving around the least of all gifts, I'd get concerned. Does he not see the gift of teaching for instance? Does he not recognize it as a superior gift? If he doesn't, he should sit in on a class and learn something.

Marv

 

[DaRev]

He laid hands on a couple of my friends and they eventually started "speaking in tongues". There was no one to interpret and we didn't really understand what was happening.

They most likely did that because they thought they were supposed to. That's what happens when too much emphasis is placed on such things. Were they actually speaking a language or were they just making noises, as I suspect most of them do?

I had a classmate in seminary who was raised Lutheran but became an AOG pastor after college. He finally realized that they were teaching contrary to the Bible and when he tried to raise questions he was gagged (wasn't allowed to preach). He then wised up and returned to the Lutheran Church. He could tell you some pretty strange tales about his experiences with that group.

 

[wildboar]

It seems to me that what I've heard from most Lutheran ministers on the subject is easier to maintain than the Pentecostal or cessationist positions.

I was once a member of a charismatic church and as an eight year old I was told in Sunday School that if I wanted to receive the gift of speaking in tongues I should get together with some of the others afterwards and we would pray together and then I was supposed to just start making whatever noises came into my head.

The Biblical passages relating to speaking in tongues seem to focus on the idea that people could speak languages that they could not understand but that other people could. Their ability to speak in tongues was a confirmation of the Gospel. If someone were to go to a foreign country which had not come in contact with the Gospel and God gave that missionary the gift of tongues to be able to communicate with those I people I certainly wouldn't doubt that God had done that. I have heard reports that there are more miraculous signs in places where the Gospel is first going forth. If someone believes they have the gift of tongues maybe they should get a job with a Bible translation committee to translate the Bible into different languages. Gifts are given to serve the body of Christ, not for babbling. It seems to simply be a historic reality that the signs and wonders stop happening once the church is established in a given area.

The Bible also says that the gift of tongues is for unbelievers and not believers. Why spend time during a worship service which is primarily for believers speaking in tongues?

I think there are too many claiming some sort of prophetic gift today without any real accountability. I hear some claiming that God has revealed to them that Obama is the Antichrist or some other figure in Revelation. At least one of them has to be wrong (I suspect they both are). Yet people make false prophecies and are not declared false prophets. I even had one person tell me that even the Biblical prophets weren't always right. I asked for an example and they said I was a heretic because I was supposedly saying that the prophets were sinless. When God spoke to the prophets it was very clear--it wasn't just some feeling that they had.

 

[Bellicus]

Thanks for answering everyone.

Not to be talking down on Pentecostals, but I too have had experiences that I find strange. For example the baptism with the Holy Spirit, this was something I thought I had to experience after getting baptized even if I already felt sure that I had been given the Holy Spirit, and it made me wonder. I heard about that many people talked in prophecy about that a awakening was going to come over the city, but it never happened. A self-proclaimed prophet told me that I was going to become a preacher man once, but he also said the same to several others. I also went to a Pentecostal bible-group and everyone there was talking in tongues. I could not help it, but had a smirk on my face, since one of them sounded like a sort of machine gun with a constant "a ratatatatata a ratatatatata" and I noticed that all of them just kept repeating the same sounds over and over again and that it didn't sound like a language at all, but just babbling. I think the explaination they had for this, was that it was a language of angels. But I was thinking about what the bible said about not talking in tongues when there were no one to translate and felt puzzled by it. Even the pastor talked in tongues without translation. And the same pastor came home to me, cause I wanted advice about some sins I was struggling with, but all I got from him was that I should get rid of some Cd's with electronic music I had. He didn't mention a single verse from the bible about how to be free from sin, and I didn't know about it myself then. But the bad thing with all of that was that I felt that I was the one with a problem, that I was a kind of devil-child because I thought all of it was nonsense, and I also ended up with taking distance to the faith after that. The best thing I remember was that one of the guys took me out to fish, and that he just wanted to talk with me.

But this is going a bit off-topic. Still I wonder a bit about gifts of the Spirit and Lutherans. I remember the priest in my church told once about Peter when he said "I don't have gold and silver, but what I have I give to you" and healed a man in the name of Jesus. And the priest told that his life was a bit of a tragedy, cause he had gold and silver, but he could not heal anyone in the name of Jesus. And it made me a bit sad, I wished that more people could have gifts like that, cause it is something that really is needed. The bible do tell about if someone are sick, then people should lie their hands on them and pray, and from how the bible explains it, it should work, but I think in most cases people experience that it don't work. So instead Christians walk around sick and suffer. There are also other gifts that would have been useful.

 

[RadMan]

Thanks for answering everyone.

Not to be talking down on Pentecostals, but I too have had experiences that I find strange. For example the baptism with the Holy Spirit, this was something I thought I had to experience after getting baptized even if I already felt sure that I had been given the Holy Spirit, and it made me wonder. I heard about that many people talked in prophecy about that a awakening was going to come over the city, but it never happened. A self-proclaimed prophet told me that I was going to become a preacher man once, but he also said the same to several others. I also went to a Pentecostal bible-group and everyone there was talking in tongues. I could not help it, but had a smirk on my face, since one of them sounded like a sort of machine gun with a constant "a ratatatatata a ratatatatata" and I noticed that all of them just kept repeating the same sounds over and over again and that it didn't sound like a language at all, but just babbling. I think the explaination they had for this, was that it was a language of angels. But I was thinking about what the bible said about not talking in tongues when there were no one to translate and felt puzzled by it. Even the pastor talked in tongues without translation. And the same pastor came home to me, cause I wanted advice about some sins I was struggling with, but all I got from him was that I should get rid of some Cd's with electronic music I had. He didn't mention a single verse from the bible about how to be free from sin, and I didn't know about it myself then. But the bad thing with all of that was that I felt that I was the one with a problem, that I was a kind of devil-child because I thought all of it was nonsense, and I also ended up with taking distance to the faith after that. The best thing I remember was that one of the guys took me out to fish, and that he just wanted to talk with me.

But this is going a bit off-topic. Still I wonder a bit about gifts of the Spirit and Lutherans. I remember the priest in my church told once about Peter when he said "I don't have gold and silver, but what I have I give to you" and healed a man in the name of Jesus. And the priest told that his life was a bit of a tragedy, cause he had gold and silver, but he could not heal anyone in the name of Jesus. And it made me a bit sad, I wished that more people could have gifts like that, cause it is something that really is needed. The bible do tell about if someone are sick, then people should lie their hands on them and pray, and from how the bible explains it, it should work, but I think in most cases people experience that it don't work. So instead Christians walk around sick and suffer. There are also other gifts that would have been useful.

Dive into the Bible a little more and you will find passages like "We through much tribulation shall enter the kingdom of heaven.............." or being tempered like silver or iron. The "joy and/or peace" mentioned in scripture usually means having joy knowing that we are saved. I only mentioned that because many denoms think that we should be ecstatic all the time.

 

[wildboar]

God almost always works through means. God gives us doctors to heal us and we should praise God for them. If all those walking around claiming to have gifts of healing were legit then they would be able to heal everyone. However, even physical sickness can be beneficial and can drive us to Christ. God knows what we need better than we do. Paul suffered from his thorn in the flesh and it was for his benefit.

Absence of gibberish and so-called miraculous signs does not equal absence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is present wherever the Word is preached. Regeneration is far more miraculous than any mere physical healing. I'd much rather suffer the loss of a leg than go to hell for all eternity.

 

[kevin.d.cherry]

I went to a United Pentecostal Church for about 10 months. It was a very... different... experience. I learned french at the same time I learned english (my kindergarten teacher must have hated me, i mostly spoke 'franglais') so when they said i HAD to speak in tongues, i just started quoting scriptures in french. they seemed to think it was working so i just kind of rolled with it. I finally left the church because I felt like emphasis was on tongue-talking instead of scripture. best decision i ever made, methinks, because it led me to the lutheran church!

 

[pdudgeon]

what i'm seeing here are mostly representations of the United Pentecostal Church, which is vastly different than 90% of the other Penticostal churches around.


if there is a place here when i can answer questions i'll be glad to do so. if not, then my pm box is always open.