• With the events that occured on July 13th, 2024, a reminder that posts wishing that the attempt was successful will not be tolerated. Regardless of political affiliation, at no point is any type of post wishing death on someone is allowed and will be actioned appropriately by CF Staff.

  • Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Luke 13:3 being ripped out of context to teach Repent Of Your Sins

BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
Jun 2, 2024
691
69
70
Florida
✟24,190.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Where does it say the devil was in Peter ?
Several accounts: Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8
How does that OT scrip' apply to those who have followed Christ out of darkness ?
Why do we keep having to rehash the fact that we're tempted in mind by our adversary, the tempter?

These are not just question of "me" or "you" as individuals as there is no such construct in the scriptures

All are subject to the operations of the tempter. Whether that results in "external acts of sin" is entirely irrelevant
My adversary has been conquered
Then you don't have an adversary and all the statements regarding the adversary, the devil, Satan wouldn't have any meaning whatsoever and you have no reason to put on any guards or armor to stand against the wiles of the DEVIL
-There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man-

From your own scripture citing. Temptation is common to man. None of us are exempt.

I've said it many times now and saying it further is a waste of time. Your positions have zero accounting for the other party. None. Your positions think it's just you alone, without any tempter doing what the tempter does "in people," which is tempt, a SIN of defilement.

Believers for thousands of years have "rightfully" confessed that we have sinned in "thought, word and deed."

I've concluded this episode. There is no point in trying to get someone to see the obvious when they obviously can't no matter what is said, and they suffer delusions of being sinless
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Several accounts: Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8
None of those say the devil was in Peter.
Besides, Peter was still in the OT and unconverted.
How can that apply to us of the NT at all ?
Why do we keep having to rehash the fact that we're tempted in mind by our adversary, the tempter?
These are not just question of "me" or "you" as individuals as there is no such construct in the scriptures
All are subject to the operations of the tempter. Whether that results in "external acts of sin" is entirely irrelevant
Then you don't have an adversary and all the statements regarding the adversary, the devil, Satan wouldn't have any meaning whatsoever and you have no reason to put on any guards or armor to stand against the wiles of the DEVIL
From your own scripture citing. Temptation is common to man. None of us are exempt.
I've said it many times now and saying it further is a waste of time. Your positions have zero accounting for the other party. None. Your positions think it's just you alone, without any tempter doing what the tempter does "in people," which is tempt, a SIN of defilement.

Believers for thousands of years have "rightfully" confessed that we have sinned in "thought, word and deed."
Believers don't sin.
I've concluded this episode. There is no point in trying to get someone to see the obvious when they obviously can't no matter what is said, and they suffer delusions of being sinless
Your whole POV is not in line with my beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Your measure of evasion needs work.
Knowing his name won't help you.

Your misreading of Gal 5 keeps you looking at things from the perspective of being in the flesh.
Don't you see it says those in the Spirit CANNOT DO the things of the flesh ?
And those walking in the flesh CANNOT DO the things of the Spirit ?
You're the one misreading it. According to the context, "cannot do" obviously means NOT ALLOWED, but you make it out to mean "NOT ABLE." You're wrong.
Anyone who truly repents of sin won't be a sinner anymore.
The false repentances produce the product you describe.

We can either keep re-emphasizing our corruption, or we can obey God and escape it !
Why glorify your sins when you could be glorifying God ?

I am glad !

He was talking to OT men who could not yet crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts.
We have been given that opportunity by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
You are obviously wrong here also, since the apostles wrote that 20 years after Jesus' resurrection. Their intention could not have possibly been to communicate to OT men, since it was the church age for 20 years.
You had better have proof of any sins you accuse me of, or take it back.
You aren't paying attention, it was clear. Your wrong ideas are sinful.
It is the truth Jesus said could make us free from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
And "truth" that cannot do that is not of Christ.
Free from sin doesn't make one sinless. This has been told you many times with quotes from John, James, Paul, and others. Your unteachable attitude makes you a sinner.
Does your version of truth free you from service to sin ?
If not, it is not Jesus' truth.
You're still not paying attention. You yourself said that you could commit sin. But sinless perfection means you cannot commit sin, so you contradict yourself.
Your premise is that you have to keep serving sin, and I disagree with it.
Was there anything else we were talking about ?
Again, you're not paying attention, and this is your sin, that you assume wrong things and jump to wrong conclusions. Nowhere did I say or imply that you have to keep serving sin. But since you keep on accusing me of such things, it makes you an adversary and a false witness. So here clearly your sin is bearing false witness against your neighbor.
The truth of what you teach will be determined by it's fruit.
Does it lead to righteousness ?
Or does it just embed sin into the supposed body of Christ ?
Of course it leads to righteousness. But you aren't paying attention.
It comes from an offended conscience.
The Spirit convicts the world of sin, this is how one gets an offended conscience. But the one dead in sin turns away, and the one born of God turns to God out of the hope within him. But of course you don't believe that.
Prove it.
Already did several times, but you can't see it because you're blind.
The devils believe in Christ.
Did God cause that too ?
I get that you don't know what true faith is.

I asked a clear yes/no question which you evaded yet again: If I say "where sin abounds, grace much more abounds," and if I say "to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," or if I say "the free grace of God means I am justified by faith alone, and salvation requires no work or effort from myself," do you believe that I am teaching antinomianism? Do you then believe that I am saying in effect, "let us do evil that good may come"? (this is a yes or no question)

And since you appear to be in this conversation just to quarrel, I'm done with you.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
1,205
637
75
Paignton
✟23,814.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You're the one misreading it. According to the context, "cannot do" obviously means NOT ALLOWED, but you make it out to mean "NOT ABLE." You're wrong.
Paul wrote:

“6 For to be carnally minded [is] death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Ro 8:6-8 NKJV)

The context shows that "cannot" certainly does mean "not able." It does not "obviously" mean "not allowed".
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Paul wrote:

“6 For to be carnally minded [is] death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Ro 8:6-8 NKJV)

The context shows that "cannot" certainly does mean "not able." It does not "obviously" mean "not allowed".
No, you're wrong, because you are trying to cram 2 different contexts into the same meaning, and besides that the Greek words aren't even the same. In Rom. 8:8 Paul makes it clear that "cannot" means "not able" in that context, and he uses "dynamai" for "cannot," which means not having the power. But in Gal. 5:17, it is clear that the opposing desires are present, therefore both desires are motivating the power to do either. The word he uses for "cannot" there is "poieo" which other translations render "may not"; for example NASB "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

So then your "context" is wrong, because the two are not the same context. You should educate yourself in hermeneutics before you try correcting something you don't know about.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You're the one misreading it. According to the context, "cannot do" obviously means NOT ALLOWED, but you make it out to mean "NOT ABLE." You're wrong.
re you also of the opinion that fig seeds can produce grapes ?
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
You are obviously wrong here also, since the apostles wrote that 20 years after Jesus' resurrection. Their intention could not have possibly been to communicate to OT men, since it was the church age for 20 years.
Did I write anything about OT men ?
Gal 5 is written to a church, and to everyman born thereafter.
You aren't paying attention, it was clear. Your wrong ideas are sinful.
Please provide the sinful idea you are referencing.
Free from sin doesn't make one sinless. This has been told you many times with quotes from John, James, Paul, and others. Your unteachable attitude makes you a sinner.
I see.
So writing about freedom from sin make me a sinner.
Providing verses from the bible's writers saying differently won't impress you if you think they were all sinners.
But I must leave this one...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
You're still not paying attention. You yourself said that you could commit sin. But sinless perfection means you cannot commit sin, so you contradict yourself.
I could commit a sin if I didn't want to obey God.
But that sin would manifest that I wasn't really born of God in the first place.
Just as apple seeds can only bear apples, God's seed can only bear after itself
Again, you're not paying attention, and this is your sin, that you assume wrong things and jump to wrong conclusions. Nowhere did I say or imply that you have to keep serving sin. But since you keep on accusing me of such things, it makes you an adversary and a false witness. So here clearly your sin is bearing false witness against your neighbor.
The entire thrust of your writings has been focused on the inability of man to obey God perfectly.
So knock off the posturing.
Of course it leads to righteousness. But you aren't paying attention.
How could it?
It is founded on the possibility that God's seed will bring forth liars and thieves.
The Spirit convicts the world of sin, this is how one gets an offended conscience. But the one dead in sin turns away, and the one born of God turns to God out of the hope within him. But of course you don't believe that.
I beleive it, but you seem not to.
I wanted righteousness, and God provided it in Christ Jesus...perfectly.
Already did several times, but you can't see it because you're blind.
Your accusations were based on false suppositions.
I get that you don't know what true faith is.
True faith will allow one to believe he can be sinless by the righteousness of Christ.
I asked a clear yes/no question which you evaded yet again: If I say "where sin abounds, grace much more abounds," and if I say "to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," or if I say "the free grace of God means I am justified by faith alone, and salvation requires no work or effort from myself," do you believe that I am teaching antinomianism? Do you then believe that I am saying in effect, "let us do evil that good may come"? (this is a yes or no question)
I am not familiar with the defenders of sin's doctrines names.
I know that those doing evil are not in Christ, don't know God, can't say they have fellowship with God, and can't say they have no sin.
Those walking in the light-God, can say all those things truthfully.
And since you appear to be in this conversation just to quarrel, I'm done with you.
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
1,205
637
75
Paignton
✟23,814.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, you're wrong, because you are trying to cram 2 different contexts into the same meaning, and besides that the Greek words aren't even the same. In Rom. 8:8 Paul makes it clear that "cannot" means "not able" in that context, and he uses "dynamai" for "cannot," which means not having the power. But in Gal. 5:17, it is clear that the opposing desires are present, therefore both desires are motivating the power to do either. The word he uses for "cannot" there is "poieo" which other translations render "may not"; for example NASB "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

So then your "context" is wrong, because the two are not the same context. You should educate yourself in hermeneutics before you try correcting something you don't know about.
I don't pretend to know Greek, but the concordances that I have access to tell me that the word can indeed mean "unable", which makes sense in the Romans quote. I don't see the English word "cannot" in Galatians 5:17:

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Ga 5:17 NKJV)

It might say "cannot" in another translation, but it wasn't in the one I use, which is why I referred to the Romans passage for my illustration.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't pretend to know Greek, but the concordances that I have access to tell me that the word can indeed mean "unable", which makes sense in the Romans quote. I don't see the English word "cannot" in Galatians 5:17:

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Ga 5:17 NKJV)

It might say "cannot" in another translation, but it wasn't in the one I use, which is why I referred to the Romans passage for my illustration.
Aren't 'cannot' and 'unable' synonymous ?
If you are in the Spirit, you cannot do the things of the flesh !
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I don't pretend to know Greek, but the concordances that I have access to tell me that the word can indeed mean "unable", which makes sense in the Romans quote. I don't see the English word "cannot" in Galatians 5:17:

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Ga 5:17 NKJV)

It might say "cannot" in another translation, but it wasn't in the one I use, which is why I referred to the Romans passage for my illustration.
What version are you using? The KJV says "cannot." And why aren't you paying attention to the conversation? The KJV "cannot" was used to justify the "not able" idea. But if you compare different translations, you can get a better sense of the meaning. But if you take a word out of context, and try to impose one lexicon definition, then you are imposing something onto the text you are reading, which is bad hermeneutics. You should be examining the context of the whole sentence, paragraph, and perhaps even the whole Bible in order to get a proper meaning of it. There is a trick to interpreting scripture, and it's to get the author's meaning, not what you think it might mean. The real meaning of it is as I explained it. It's found in the context of what Paul is talking about.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
1,205
637
75
Paignton
✟23,814.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Aren't 'cannot' and 'unable' synonymous ?
If you are in the Spirit, you cannot do the things of the flesh !
Sorry, I was unnecessarily confusing. I should have stuck to the two terms Tdidymas used to start with: "Not allowed" and "unable".
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
1,205
637
75
Paignton
✟23,814.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What version are you using? The KJV says "cannot." And why aren't you paying attention to the conversation? The KJV "cannot" was used to justify the "not able" idea. But if you compare different translations, you can get a better sense of the meaning. But if you take a word out of context, and try to impose one lexicon definition, then you are imposing something onto the text you are reading, which is bad hermeneutics. You should be examining the context of the whole sentence, paragraph, and perhaps even the whole Bible in order to get a proper meaning of it. There is a trick to interpreting scripture, and it's to get the author's meaning, not what you think it might mean. The real meaning of it is as I explained it. It's found in the context of what Paul is talking about.
I am sorry you thought I wasn't paying attention. The version I usually use is the NKJV, and I used it when quoting from Galatians 5:

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Ga 5:17 NKJV)

I'm afraid that even looking at the contexts of both the Galatians and Romans passages, I don't see that the context in Galatians makes it mean "not allowed" (if I am correct in assuming that by "not allowed" you mean that somebody is forbidding them). The context is that of loving one's neighbour as oneself, as far as I can see. I suppose that the devil could be said to be forbidding them to do so, but that's true of all keeping of God's commands.

Thank you for replying, and I will try to make sure I am paying more attention to the conversation.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry, I was unnecessarily confusing. I should have stuck to the two terms Tdidymas used to start with: "Not allowed" and "unable".
Good morning David,
No problem.
Those two terms are basically synonymous too.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I am sorry you thought I wasn't paying attention. The version I usually use is the NKJV, and I used it when quoting from Galatians 5:

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Ga 5:17 NKJV)

I'm afraid that even looking at the contexts of both the Galatians and Romans passages, I don't see that the context in Galatians makes it mean "not allowed" (if I am correct in assuming that by "not allowed" you mean that somebody is forbidding them). The context is that of loving one's neighbour as oneself, as far as I can see. I suppose that the devil could be said to be forbidding them to do so, but that's true of all keeping of God's commands.

Thank you for replying, and I will try to make sure I am paying more attention to the conversation.
The NKJV is not so clear. But "so that you do not do the things that you wish" simply means that true Christians have all sorts of temptations to commit sins of passion, pride, envy, etc. but they (we) do not do those things our flesh desire to satisfy, because we know them to be wrong. Yes, it means they are not allowed to be done if we intend to be true to God and followers of Jesus. It obviously does not mean we are not able to do them. Examine the list of the deeds of the flesh in the context, and tell me if any of those things are no longer temptations to Christians. Some Christians once practiced some of those things regularly, and because of residual desire for such pleasures or passion, they become sorely tempted at times. It is common for a Christian to want revenge when they are wronged by another, but the Spirit reminds them they have to trust in God and forgive the wrong done. Isn't it obvious, then, that "cannot do" or "do not do" means they actually could do it, but are not allowed according to the will of God? Of course God forbids practicing the deeds of the flesh. Can you see it?

This is why most translations render it "may not do," to make the language clearer. Isn't clear language the goal of a translation? Look at the context of Galatians as a whole. Certainly some of them were listening to the Judaizers tell them they can't be saved unless they are circumcised and obey the Jewish customs, this is why Paul wrote the epistle, and it's clearly stated in ch. 1. Indeed it has application for today, because many Christians find themselves failing at complete repentance, because their faith is weak and they haven't learned to rely on the power of the Spirit (the Helper) to help them live rightly. The Spirit helps us to resist temptations of passion, pride, and pleasure, but we have to trust Him for it, this is the reason Paul says "live by the Spirit." It's the same meaning as Jesus saying "deny self and take up your cross daily." Paul reiterates this in one of the Timothy epistles by saying "the grace of God has appeared, teaching us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly and righteously in this present age.

Therefore the idea that a born-again Christian is not able to commit sin is a ludicrous idea, and it's unbiblical.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The NKJV is not so clear. But "so that you do not do the things that you wish" simply means that true Christians have all sorts of temptations to commit sins of passion, pride, envy, etc. but they (we) do not do those things our flesh desire to satisfy, because we know them to be wrong. Yes, it means they are not allowed to be done if we intend to be true to God and followers of Jesus. It obviously does not mean we are not able to do them. Examine the list of the deeds of the flesh in the context, and tell me if any of those things are no longer temptations to Christians. Some Christians once practiced some of those things regularly, and because of residual desire for such pleasures or passion, they become sorely tempted at times. It is common for a Christian to want revenge when they are wronged by another, but the Spirit reminds them they have to trust in God and forgive the wrong done. Isn't it obvious, then, that "cannot do" or "do not do" means they actually could do it, but are not allowed according to the will of God? Of course God forbids practicing the deeds of the flesh. Can you see it?

This is why most translations render it "may not do," to make the language clearer. Isn't clear language the goal of a translation? Look at the context of Galatians as a whole. Certainly some of them were listening to the Judaizers tell them they can't be saved unless they are circumcised and obey the Jewish customs, this is why Paul wrote the epistle, and it's clearly stated in ch. 1. Indeed it has application for today, because many Christians find themselves failing at complete repentance, because their faith is weak and they haven't learned to rely on the power of the Spirit (the Helper) to help them live rightly. The Spirit helps us to resist temptations of passion, pride, and pleasure, but we have to trust Him for it, this is the reason Paul says "live by the Spirit." It's the same meaning as Jesus saying "deny self and take up your cross daily." Paul reiterates this in one of the Timothy epistles by saying "the grace of God has appeared, teaching us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly and righteously in this present age.

Therefore the idea that a born-again Christian is not able to commit sin is a ludicrous idea, and it's unbiblical.
It isn't a ludicrous idea if you read 1 John 3:9.
Just as fig seeds cannot bring forth grapes, neither can God's seed bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
1,205
637
75
Paignton
✟23,814.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Good morning David,
No problem.
Those two terms are basically synonymous too.
They sometimes are in colloquial English. We often tend to say "can" (meaning ability) when we really mean "may" (asking for permission). I always remember at school the teacher correcting pupils who asked, "Can I go to the toilet?" He said, "I'm sure you can. If you can't get your mum to take you to the doctor!" In our current discussion, "can" is not the same as "allowed to". Saying you are not allowed to do spiritual things is not the same as saying that you don't have the ability to do so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
It isn't a ludicrous idea if you read 1 John 3:9.
Just as fig seeds cannot bring forth grapes, neither can God's seed bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
I see you are trying to stir up a quarrel yet again. Your usage of scripture is erroneous. And don't ask me to explain, because you didn't listen when I explained it before. In fact, I ought to be ignoring you.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
They sometimes are in colloquial English. We often tend to say "can" (meaning ability) when we really mean "may" (asking for permission). I always remember at school the teacher correcting pupils who asked, "Can I go to the toilet?" He said, "I'm sure you can. If you can't get your mum to take you to the doctor!" In our current discussion, "can" is not the same as "allowed to". Saying you are not allowed to do spiritual things is not the same as saying that you don't have the ability to do so.
True, as I have used the "can I" "may I" trope in the past.
As for Gal 5:17, the "cannot" is the "inability" to do what is against our new nature.
Like grape seeds cannot bring forth figs, neither can one reborn of God' seed bring forth wickedness.
 
Upvote 0

Hoping2

Active Member
Aug 15, 2024
257
48
70
Phoenix
✟8,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I see you are trying to stir up a quarrel yet again. Your usage of scripture is erroneous. And don't ask me to explain, because you didn't listen when I explained it before. In fact, I ought to be ignoring you.
I am just using scripture in order to defend the doctrine which is according to Godliness (1 Tim 6:3)
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,587
1,082
Houston, TX
✟180,347.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I am just using scripture in order to defend the doctrine which is according to Godliness (1 Tim 6:3)
You still haven't answered the question I asked earlier. Do you think I am teaching antinomianism? (yes/no)
 
Upvote 0