Let no man deceive you by any means...2 Thessalonians 2:3

[Douggg]

If the church is not supposed to be here during great trib, then why is it still here via these alleged unbelieving Jews that get saved after the church allegedly exits the planet?

The church is gone before the unbelieving Jews turn to Jesus.

The church will be gone before the ToD act. The ToD act by the Antichrist will be so shocking to the Jews that they will be in a state of shock. And if not for the preaching and prophesying by the two witnesses - they would be at a loss of what to do, which will be to turn to Jesus.

Things taking place at that time will happen quickly and will have a surreal aura about them.

 

[Douggg]

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The day of Christ is after the man of sin is revealed. The day of Christ is His coming.

The act by the Antichrist will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord as his act draws God's anger against him, because (1) the person had the gall to think of himself of the messiah and (2) then he claims to have achieved God-hood.

God will have the revealed man of sin assassinated for his claiming to be God act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

The Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5 is a time when God's wrath takes place.

 

[DavidPT]

Christ is the Lord. The day of Christ, day of the Lord is the same thing.

Since you apply the day of the Lord to that of great tribulation, the following comes to mind.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Some argue, and on the surface the argument appears reasonable, that this is meaning prior to great trib, because, who could be saying peace and safety during great tribulation, right? It all depends on how you look at it.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


And if this is involving a time of great tribulation, clearly, the saints being made war with, and being overcome, and some of them being killed, none of these would be saying peace and safety. But what about the ones worshiping the beast, meaning they are not being made war against, nor are being killed by the beast? In comparison then, wouldn't it be peace and safety for them, the opposite it would be for the saints being persecuted and killed?

Regardless, whether you agree or not, regardless that you might not even be fully grasping my point here for all I know, this at least shows that there is more than just one way to look at things.

 

[DavidPT]

The Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5 is a time when God's wrath takes place.

At least you have this correct until you add to this by insisting this is meaning during great tribulation. Why can't you see, in Matthew 24:29 by comparing with the 6th seal in Revelation 6, that God's wrath is after great tribulation, not during it?

 

[Douggg]

Why can't you see, in Matthew 24:29 by comparing with the 6th seal in Revelation 6, that God's wrath is after great tribulation, not during it?

Matthew 24:29 is the sixth seal event - I agree.

In the sixth seal event, at which time also is the sign of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a, the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14) - because the reaction of the wicked men of the world, who will have been persecuting and martyring the great tribulation saints, will want to hide themselves and seek the mountains to fall on them because they will be terrified, knowing that Jesus is about execute judgment on them, the wrath of the Lamb in Revelation 6:16.

Then, in Revelation 16:13-16, the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon Satan (indwelling the speaking image of the beast statue) will summon the kings of the earth to Jerusalem, to assemble their armies, to make war on Jesus - in order to save their hides from the wrath of the Lamb.

The great tribulation will be almost over at that time, but not quiet finished, which is why it is called the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29. One vial of God's wrath still left and the taking of Jerusalem as hostage.

In Revelation 16:17 is the final vial of God's wrath, the global earthquake, and the great hail. In Zechariah 14, in Jerusalem, the armies will take half the city as hostages, and at the same time raping the women there, the final throes of the great tribulation.

Jesus then descends to earth, accompanied in glory by the heavenly army of saints and angels, stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, making a valley for the hostages to escape through. Jesus's brightness then is directed at Satan and causes the abomination of desolation living statue image incarnated by Satan to go up in flames and turned to ashes.

There on the temple mount, on that most awesome pinnacle day in the history of man, Satan will be exposed for all them there on that day to behold. Them who will have worshiped the image will be aghast. This is all in Ezekiel 28:16-19 about Satan's demise as a terror.

The false prophet and beast will next be cast alive into the lake of fire - which I depict as a great portal that opens and closes.

Then the armies and all the kings of the earth who will be there, fall dead, by Jesus speaking it, in Revelation 19:21. Their flesh consumed while standing, and their eyes receding in their sockets, which is in Zechariah 14. The wrath of the Lamb.

Then a lone angel descends and puts Satan in chains and casts Satan into the bottomless pit - which I also depict as a portal that opens and closes. Imprisoned for a thousand years.

Okay, I have explained it and the verses that apply. And furnish below the pictorial of the day of Jesus's return to this earth, Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

But what about the ones worshiping the beast, meaning they are not being made war against, nor are being killed by the beast? In comparison then, wouldn't it be peace and safety for them, the opposite it would be for the saints being persecuted and killed?

No they will not be saying peace and safety, because all during that time the judgments of God in the form of the trumpets and vials will be taking place.

Which the beast will vilify God for those, cursing Him and His Holy name.

Near the end of the great tribulation, oil energy supplies, the life blood to the nations, will be controlled by the ten kings EU kingdom of the beast, with western allies.

They will be funneling those to the western nations - which will cause the leaders of the east, north, south to come against the beast to free up the oil. At least, that is my opinion, as the reason for the battles against the beast in Daniel 11:40-44.

From a bible perspective, it appears also as God's way of drawing all nations into the middle east - as a prelude to Armageddon. When, after being drawn into the middle east - the sixth event suddenly happens.

They all stop fighting against against the beast because of the bigger threat, and in Revelation 16:13-16, they unite to make war on Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

@DavidPT From my previous two posts, I hope you realize that most of the end times events, how they will take place, is not a mystery to me.

But what I don't know is the name of the beast, nor the solution to the 666 mystery of his name.

 

[DavidPT]

No they will not be saying peace and safety, because all during that time the judgments of God in the form of the trumpets and vials will be taking place.

BTW, I can't see any of your images since the Upgrade. Might be because I have Scripting turned off in this browser. That aside.

There are no vial judgments taking place during the great tribulation. The great tribulation is involving the time of the 5th seal, for one, not the time of the 6th seal instead, that being the seal involving the time of His wrath. And that the time of the great tribulation is involving the time of the 6th trumpet, and that the vials of wrath are only involving the time of the 7th trumpet.

You, just like Preterists, would have us believe that the day of the Lord is meaning during the great trib rather than after the great trib. If that is true then why is Jesus disagreeing with that in Matthew 24, the fact He places the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord, after the trib of those days, according to Matthew 24:29 by then comparing with the 5th and 6th seal in Revelation 6?

The 5th seal, the following equals the time of great tribulation---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)

The 6th seal, all of that is meaning the day involving His wrath, the day of the Lord. What other day could it possibly be meaning if not the day of the Lord when we are told this in Revelation 6:17---For the great day of his wrath is come?

Notice in Acts 2, this---Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

It even calls it the great day here as well, meaning the day of the Lord. In Revelation 6:11 it calls it the great day of His wrath. Is anyone going to argue that the day of the Lord does not involve His wrath? No. And does not Matthew 24:29 plainly, thus undeniably, tell us that the 6th seal is meaning after the great tribulation? So, why are some interpreters, such as you, via your interpretations of some of these events, contradicting what Jesus said, contradicting what is recorded in Acts 2 and Revelation 6, instead of agreeing with what those accounts record? Is that how truth is determined, by contradicting something that is already crystal clear, by then making it as clear as mud?

 

[Douggg]

BTW, I can't see any of your images since the Upgrade. Might be because I have Scripting turned off in this browser. That aside.

I don't see them either.

 

[Douggg]

There are no vial judgments taking place during the great tribulation. The great tribulation is involving the time of the 5th seal, for one, not the time of the 6th seal instead, that being the seal involving the time of His wrath. And that the time of the great tribulation is involving the time of the 6th trumpet, and that the vials of wrath are only involving the time of the 7th trumpet.

Go back to Matthew 24:15-30.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

The great tribulation in verse 15 begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place, spoken of by Daniel the prophet. In Daniel 12:11-12, the abomination of desolation will be setup; 1290 days and 1335 days before Jesus returns.

David, I think I will not post anymore here at Christian Forums until the upgrade becomes more intuitive and user-friendly. I wish this site would go back to the previous version.

 

[keras]

Is anyone going to argue that the day of the Lord does not involve His wrath? No.

I am.
Because the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, does not involve His wrath at all. At that time, He just disposes of the armies at Armageddon by the Sword of Hid Word. They aren't burnt up, as their carcasses are food for the carrion eaters.

There are two Days of the Lord, the first to come will be the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all the end time events and after they are over; as Matthew 24:29 plainly says, THEN Jesus will Return and gather His own people to Him. Confirmed by Revelation 15:1

 

[DavidPT]

I am.
Because the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, does not involve His wrath at all. At that time, He just disposes of the armies at Armageddon by the Sword of Hid Word. They aren't burnt up, as their carcasses are food for the carrion eaters.

There are two Days of the Lord, the first to come will be the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all the end time events and after they are over; as Matthew 24:29 plainly says, THEN Jesus will Return and gather His own people to Him. Confirmed by Revelation 15:1

Why not, right? If Pretribbers can invent more than one coming, why can't others invent more than just one day of the Lord, right?

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

At least 2 Passages in the NT tell us that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. How many times should we assume it comes like a thief in the night? Only one time? Or multiple times at different times? I can't speak for others, but if I'm going to agree with the text at least, that means that I have no choice but to conclude that the former is the correct and only answer.

 

[keras]

Why not, right? If Pretribbers can invent more than one coming, why can't others invent more than just one day of the Lord, right?

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

At least 2 Passages in the NT tell us that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. How many times should we assume it comes like a thief in the night? Only one time? Or multiple times at different times? I can't speak for others, but if I'm going to agree with the text at least, that means that I have no choice but to conclude that the former is the correct and only answer.

Jesus; the Lord: does not 'come' visibly at the Sixth Seal - His terrible Day of fiery wrath. Prophesies like Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, tell us He will remain hidden. Psalms 11:4-6 clearly says He stays in heaven and Amos 1 says He SENDS His punishment onto the ungodly peoples.

That event will strike unexpectedly, but the glorious Return will be heralded by trumpets, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and will come exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.

 

[Douggg]

There are two Days of the Lord, the first to come will be the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all the end time events and after they are over; as Matthew 24:29 plainly says, THEN Jesus will Return and gather His own people to Him. Confirmed by Revelation 15:1

keras, regarding the sixth seal event, you need to go to Matthew 24:29-30a. The sixth seal event is at the end of the great tribulation, which is ALMOST over at that time.
.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:


The sign of the son of man in the sixth seal event that will terrify the evil men of the world that persecuted and martyred the great tribulation saints will look like this...

 

[Douggg]

Jesus; the Lord: does not 'come' visibly at the Sixth Seal - His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

keras, there is no fiery description in the Sixth seal event text. You have the timing of the sixth seal event - and all of the seal events - incorrect. The Sixth seal event is near the very end of the great tribulation and corresponds to Matthew 24:29-30a.


12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Douggg]

Why not, right? If Pretribbers can invent more than one coming, why can't others invent more than just one day of the Lord, right?

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

At least 2 Passages in the NT tell us that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. How many times should we assume it comes like a thief in the night? Only one time? Or multiple times at different times? I can't speak for others, but if I'm going to agree with the text at least, that means that I have no choice but to conclude that the former is the correct and only answer.

David, the day of the Lord is eternal - with three distinct segments. Peter addressed a segment of the day of the Lord. Paul another segment. You won't find any text that says after the day of the Lord is over.

1st segment - peace and safety shattered the day of the Lord begins, suddenly like a thief in the night (Peter's day of the Lord starts the same way, but Peter jumps right to the third segment). The first segment contains the great tribulation.

2nd segment - after the great tribulation is over, the thousand year reign of Christ takes place - the second segment a time of peace on earth.

(Note: the Jews were looking forward to the day of the Lord in the old testament for that reason as being a time of peace on earth - but God told them what is it to you because it will be a day of darkness and trouble, which is referring to the great tribulation)

3rd segment - the destruction of this current heaven and earth. And then after the great white throne judgment, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem - the third segment goes on for eternity.

 

[keras]

keras, regarding the sixth seal event, you need to go to Matthew 24:29-30a. The sixth seal event is at the end of the great tribulation, which is ALMOST over at that time.

Douggg, you need to go the Revelation 6:12 and see that the Sixth Seal will be the next Prophesied event.
Matthew 24:28 refers to all of Gods wrath, commencing at the SS and thru the 7 Trumpets and concluding with the 7th Bowl; which is Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18 About a 10 year period from the SS to the glorious return.

I see you have found how to post you charts in this new format.
Let me inform you that those scribbles just add to the general confusion and are worse than useless when what you show is hopelessly wrong.
The Day of the Lord's wrath is just a single 24 hour day and the Day when Jesus Returns is also a one day event.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, you need to go the Revelation 6:12 and see that the Sixth Seal will be the next Prophesied event.
Matthew 24:28 refers to all of Gods wrath, commencing at the SS and thru the 7 Trumpets and concluding with the 7th Bowl; which is Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18 About a 10 year period from the SS to the glorious return.

Matthew 24:28 ? Did you make a typo and mean another verse?

It is Matthew 24:29-30a that corresponds to the sixth seal event.

 

[keras]

Matthew 24:28 ? Did you make a typo and mean another verse?

It is Matthew 24:29-30a that corresponds to the sixth seal event.

I corrected my typo, thanks.

But you cannot say that verse is only the Sixth Seal. It covers ALL of Gods wrath from Revelation 6L12 to Rev 19:10
The SS is just the first event. ALL od Gods wrath is over BEFORE the glorious Return.

Now you correct your 'chart'.
Even at the NH,NE, there is no mention of Gods wrath.

 

[Douggg]

But you cannot say that verse is only the Sixth Seal. It covers ALL of Gods wrath from Revelation 6L12 to Rev 19:10
The SS is just the first event. ALL od Gods wrath is over BEFORE the glorious Return.

The sixth seal event takes place right at the end of the great tribulation. The sixth seal event is not the first event of God's wrath.

The tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29-30a is right at the end of the great tribulation. Only one vial of God's wrath to go at that point. The 7th vial.

This is the sequence of events, right at the end of the great tribulation...

1. Sixth seal event, Matthew 24:29-30a - the sign of the Son of man in heaven - Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand.
2. that causes terror in the hearts of the evil men of the world, in Revelation 6:15-17.
3. in Revelation 16:13-16, in response, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon with the intent to make war on Jesus
4. in Zechariah 14:2, they take half of Jerusalem as hostages, the houses pillaged, and the women raped.
5. in Revelation 16:17-21, then the 7th vial of God's wrath poured out.
6. in Revelation 19:11-16, then Jesus descends from heaven, with the armies of heaven, comprised of His saints and His holy angels. Jesus's glorious Second Coming in power and great glory.

Jesus's wrath, the wrath of the Lamb, is then executed...

7. in Zechariah 14:4, Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half, creating a valley for the hostages to escape through
8. the brightness of Jesus's glory causes the AoD statue image incarnated by Satan to go up in flames turned to ashes, Ezekiel 28:18.
9. exposing Satan for everyone to see him, including those who will have worshiped the AoD. They will be aghast. Ezekiel 28:19.
10. the false prophet and the beast cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 19:20.
11. the kings of the earth and their armies, are then slain by Jesus speaking. Revelation 19:21. Their flesh dissolved while standing on their feet, their eyes consumed into their sockets, their tongues in their mouth, dropping dead to the ground to be feasted upon by the birds and beasts. Zechariah 14:12, Ezekiel 39:17-20.
12. a lone angel descends from heaven, Revelation 20:1, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain.
13. the angel lays hold of Satan and binds him up, to be cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years - to be a terror (note) no more. Ezekiel 28:19 .... thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


note: When Satan is cast down from the second heaven to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, he will have great wrath, a terror, knowing his time is short, the time/times/half time.