Kosher vs Halal meat

[Gxg (G²)]

I just had something show up on my Facebook page about Halal meat now being used in Subway, Costco, Walmart and I guess, most American/Canadian grocery stores.

At first I thought no big deal....it just means we're getting clean meat, then I read something I didn't know...that with Halal meat the Muslim slaughterers pronounce a prayer on each animal at the time of slaughter, or they must say "In the name of Allah" just before the animal was killed.

Wouldn't this be basically the same thing as eating meat sacrificed to an idol?

I think this is something very important for us all to watch out for, and at this point, I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian.

We have scriptures noting where food offered to idolatry is evil - something the Apostles made plain needed to be kept in mind with the Gentiles during the Great Debates/Council in Acts 15....and later echoed by one of the Apostles when saying what Christ had issue with:

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. Revelation 2:20
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The passage refers to meat that was literally sacrificed to idols. The Israelites ate meat from some of their sacrifices. The pagans did likewise. It is the meat that was knowingly sacrificed to idols that was forbidden.

Specifically, the "meat sacrificed to idols" was actual "idol-meat" that, in Romans, Paul used as a context or as a reason to talk about permissible things that are not beneficial in the name of love. To honor the principle that Paul is highlighting in Romans in our day, one could remove "idol-meat" and insert "alcohol". The principle in Romans is about giving up one's personal rights in the name of loving our brothers and sisters who stumble because of our liberty in things that are permissible but not necessarily beneficial to the community of believers as a whole.

The intensity of the situation in Revelation 2 is sort of, but sort of isn't, connected to this principle, as the prophetess is promoting the practice of eating meat sacrificed to idols, along with the practice of sexual immorality, in the name of spirituality (which food was also used to lead into much like it was when offerings/sacrifices were made in temple prostitution) - and the church was tolerating this teaching in their midst.

The modern day parallel would be a small group / home group leader in a large church promoting sexual immorality and drinking, say, blood, (as the alcohol analogy breaks down here as what Jezebel was doing was far more serious) as a means to connect to the deep things of God...and the church leadership tolerates that teaching within their spiritual culture. Within the broader culture of Thyatira, many had been delivered from idol worship and the actual, literal meat-eating that accompanied those ceremonies - and the prophetess was encouraging (seducing) them to return to the practice, possibly excusing it in the guise of connecting to Jesus better by doing so.

The modern-day application related to the end-times - the season of time on the earth before the return of Jesus - would be the coming seduction of believers into immoral and demonic practices in the name of spirituality and, possibly, even a "deeper" connection to Jesus. What actually happened then is instructive of what will probably happen again, as it relates to what the actual practices of that day were, not a "spiritual" interpretation. In other words, while we probably won't see a prophetess actually teach people to eat meat sacrificed to idols, we may see preachers teach people to engage in demonic practices with the name of Jesus/Yeshua attached to them. Beyond the specifics (which we can't know right now) is the principle - which is an invitation for believers right now to overcome sensuality, immorality, and the things of their past that they were set free from - and to boldly confront false teaching in our spiritual communities that seduces believers as opposed to tolerating it in the name of mercy or compassion.

You could also argue that Jezebel - in the context of food - was a matter of making idols that had the NAME of the Lord even though they were divorced from his nature. Reading through I Kings 17-19, Jezebel had been working to introduce Baal worship into the land and intermingle it with the name of the Lord - being very aggressive....and many sold out to her on the matter. In a similar way, the same dynamic also occurs when it comes to pushing understanding of food restrictions unto groups that were never supposed to occur. In example, there are places that pride themselves into thinking that being more disiciplined in their bodies by abstaining from certain foods makes them more spiritual - and yet their lifestyles can be utterly depraved. It's what occurred with many of the Gnostics who advocated that the physical was bad - and thus, rather than indulging in it, they'd advocate that all forms of pleasure in it were wrong....and thus, they became a differing side of what Jezebel was about when it came to talking on ways to connect to the Lord.

Colossians 2:18
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
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[quote1 Timothy 4:2-4/1 Timothy 41 Timothy 4:2-4/1 Timothy 4

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The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
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[/quote]

Hebrews 13:8-10/ Hebrews 13
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[a] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

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Even the people advocating for the worship of the Lord - if they are being judgemental of others and taking more pride in the foods they eat rather than the grace of the Lord - they are advocating an idol since it's not what the Lord is about.
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[Truthfrees]

Quote isn't working for me now either.

Here's compilation of scriptures about eating food sacrificed to idols:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=idols+food&qs_version=AMP

You can see the whole chapter for each selection by clicking on "full chapter".

Eating food sacrificed to idols involves a sacrifice I think, but in any case, we're told not to eat such food, and not to participate in such celebrations.

Paul is the only one who explains WHY not to eat such food: to avoid wrong appearances, and hurt other people's faith. (Romans 8 and 10)

Paul also makes it clear idols and false gods are not real, but people think they're real, so there's really no big deal about such food other than appearances, and of course the TNK makes it clear the celebrations associated with these sacrifices are to be avoided also.

There's no real malevolent power in the food, in case someone thinks they've been tricked into eating demonized food unaware. That's why Paul says not to ask if the food's been offered to idols. Only refuse it if you've been told it's been offered to idols.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just had something show up on my Facebook page about Halal meat now being used in Subway, Costco, Walmart and I guess, most American/Canadian grocery stores.

At first I thought no big deal....it just means we're getting clean meat, then I read something I didn't know...that with Halal meat the Muslim slaughterers pronounce a prayer on each animal at the time of slaughter, or they must say "In the name of Allah" just before the animal was killed.

Wouldn't this be basically the same thing as eating meat sacrificed to an idol?

I think this is something very important for us all to watch out for, and at this point, I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian.

As it concerns the issue of idolatry, I've never witnessed any food sacrificed to an idol, nor do I give it consideration, for "we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one" (1 Cor. 8:4). If, by chance, a brother had a weak conscience and lacked the knowledge that there is only one God, I would refrain from such food (1 Cor. 10:28-29).

1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14 specifically address this matter, with some more information found in 1 Corinthians 10.

Alongside what Paul mentioned about a weak brother, he also noted how one should eat the food set before him if an unbeliever invites you to have dinner with them:

I Corinthians 10:27-33

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
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What Paul noted doesn't seem to speak necessarily on the subject of whether all aspects of ceremonial food laws are non-important...but IMHO, it does give some good food for thought in regards to principles one can learn from when struggling with the degree one can go in fellowshipping to win another's heart.
On what Paul noted, I Corinthians 8 immediately comes to mind, specifically Romans 14-15 come to mind...and so do I Corinthians 8:9-13
I Corinthians 10:14-33 comes to mind as well.

Just say, for example, that a Hindu invites you to his house where he has offered up prayers to his god for the food. Would you eat it? Some may say yes..... To a degree, I’d say the same too (Luke 10). No doubt, I would have great difficulty going to a Hindu home and sitting through a prayer to a false god. However, I can envision myself doing this...IF I were not placing stumbling blocks in someone else's path by being seen doing this. If a weaker brother were there, I would NOT participate in such a scenario.

And as the Hindu was praying to his demon, I would not join in his prayer, but would pray to the one true God, that He would be manifested in that very circumstance. But even if your’e a guest of an unbeliever and don’t wish to offend him, it is better to offend the unbeliever (according to Paul) who may be with you and not eat for the sake of the weaker Christian who may be with you & who would be offended to eat, since love for other believers is the strongest witness we have (John 13:34-35)….

Sometimes it’s hard knowing when to defer to the weaker believer….but Paul gives a simple rule of thumb in making the decision. We should be sensitive and gracious….for the goal isn’t hyper-sensitivity that worries about what others might possibly think, but genuine awareness of others/a willingness to limit what we do when there’s a real possibility of misunderstanding/offense. Some actions may not be wrong, but they may be in the best interests of others…..and even with Freedom in Christ, it’s can’t be done at the cost of hurting others.

I think Paul’s statement on Idols/Conscience has to do with how we should be sensitve to the meaning of our actions to new believers who are sorting out how to renounce sinful ways from the past & live for Christ. That doesn’t mean we should make a career of being offended at people with over-sensitive consciencs, for believers musn’t project their standards on others.

On I Corinthians 10:14-22, Paul applied the example of Israel’s idolatry to the problem in I Corinthians 8—–eating meat sacrificed to idols. There is the danger of going a step beyond just eating sacrificed meat to that of joining the pagans in the sacrifical feasts in their pagan temples. To do that would indeed be wrong and sinful since Paul illustrates this by showing participation in the Lord’s Supper to signify a believer is in COMMUNION—in a sharing relationship (koinonia)–with the Savior. So participation in idol feasts in pagan temples means sharing in pagan worship……..and one cannot get past how such participation is forbidden

How believers today must discern how the illustration applies to our own lives is still the issue, though.

In I Corinthians 10:18-20, Paul compared the OT sacrifices with pagan offerings. When the people of Israel sacrificed at the altar and ate part of the sacrifice (Lev 7:15, Lev 8:31, Deut 12:17-18), they participated in and became part of the sacrifical system/worship of God. Though Paul says he doesn’t mean idols are anything, he does make clear that when they sacrifice they do so with DEMONS.

There’s always a spiritual aspect and he doesn’t want the Corinthians to share in worship having to do with demons. As radical as it sounds, a Christian cannot simultaneously participate in the meal/table dedicated to a Pagan God while also sharing in the table of the Lord, whether intentionally or innocently...so chilling to eat a meal offered up to Buddah at the Hindu's house (regarding the earlier analogy) may not be an option for today.

If we share in Pagan idolatry, THE SCRIPTURE’S very clear we’ll arouse God’s jealously and incite Him to action in his HATRED FOR SIN/MIXED ALLEGIANCEs or opening the door for the appearance of such (Deut 32:21, Psalm 78:58, Romans 12:17)…….and IMHO, we see nowhere in the Scriptures where Paul ever did so when witnessing with individuals.

Going to a Hindu's house for dinner may be one thing, but going to a full-out Hindu festival like Maha Shivaratri or Guru Purnima and dining out as if it's all good is a different story.

Regarding the issue of verses 25-31 (I Corinthians 10), though Paul said meat eaten at an idol feast associated with pagan worship/contaminated, meat eaten in the market places wasn’t an issue since it’d lost it’s RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE and is all right to eat and this is where Paul teaches to eat meat without raising issues of conscience since meat/all things come from the Lord (I Corinthians 10:26, Psalm 24, Psalm 50:1, Psalm 89:11, I Timothy 4:1-5, Hebrews 13:9, etc).

In practice, meat sold at Publix or Piggly-Wiggly shouldn’t bother me if it was used previously at a Hindu festival since I don’t know of it’s orgin and the purpose is simply meat being sold for grub.

But if a unbeliever—such as a Hindu–invites me to dinner at their house, Scripture seems to indicate Paul may’ve had in mind the believer giving the unbeliever a quiet/apprecitiative testimony. And that's only permissible if another believer doesn't point out meat was offered to an idol. At that point, be content with an empty stomach because the freedom has condemned another man’s conscience despite any “rights’ One may have.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

So you shouldn't mix what Jesus was teaching with what Paul was teaching. The Gospel of Law and Prophecy can not mix with the Gospel of Grace. They are as different as oil and water.

My jaw is dropping to the floor!!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just had something show up on my Facebook page about Halal meat now being used in Subway, Costco, Walmart and I guess, most American/Canadian grocery stores.

At first I thought no big deal....it just means we're getting clean meat, then I read something I didn't know...that with Halal meat the Muslim slaughterers pronounce a prayer on each animal at the time of slaughter, or they must say "In the name of Allah" just before the animal was killed.

Wouldn't this be basically the same thing as eating meat sacrificed to an idol?

I think this is something very important for us all to watch out for, and at this point, I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian.

Something that I think should be considered is that eating Halal meat made by the Muslims would really be no different than someone eating food from the homes of Gentiles who were not clean - and on the issue, one thing that comes to mind is that even people like Cornelius would be in a similar background as those with Halal meat. Even if he served Kosher food, there's a larger background with Peter which would've made the event over food/dining with Cornelius all the more interesting.

Acts 9:43
Peter stayed in Joppa for some time with a tanner named Simon.
Acts 9:42-43 / Acts 9

Acts 10:32
Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’
Acts 10:31-33 / Acts 10

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A tanner was involved in treating the skins of dead animals, thus contacting the unclean according to Jewish law (Leviticus 11:8)---and an individual involved in such a trade was despised by many. In Acts 10:9-16, the passage addresses but whether Peter was going to recognize God’s cleansing actions in the life of Cornelius---the one who aided in beginning the Gentile Pentecost in Acts 10-11. Peter was being shown that being cleansed by God made one clean. The unclean beasts were being used because eating them would have naturally repulsed Peter—just as Americans are today when they see what passes for food in some cultures. In the same way Peter would have been repulsed at the idea of going into Cornelius’ house and preaching the gospel to them. We see the Jewish mindset in this regard when we hear what those of the circumcision said in Acts 11:18: ‘So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.’

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]I find it interesting that Peter was staying and eating in the house of a Jewish believer whose livelihood would have made him unclean, but would have still held up his nose at entering the house of a Gentile. Simon was a tanner, which would have made him unclean, because the tanners had constant contact with animal carcasses (Ben Witherington III, New Testament History, (Baker: Grand Rapids, 2001), p. 208). The stench from the process would have been unbearable. It was bad enough that tanners had to place their homes outside of the city (notice the passage tells us his house was by the sea). So Peter, who was staying in a stinking hovel would have turned his nose up at entering the house of a gentile. Peter could understand that God could cleanse a Jew doing an unclean occupation, but could not understand God cleansing an unconverted Gentile. This is why God had to command him to eat things that would have disgusted him—to get through this ethnic barrier. For it does seem that Peter had some serious issues as it concerns prejudice and racism (more shared here).[/FONT]​

To make it seem as if Cornelius would've been someone that Peter was comfortable with takes away from the significance of how the early Jewish body of believers sees things - as it concerns the fact that Cornelius, although a God-Fearer, was not someone who was ever deemed to be a full convert to Judaism/one who was in line with all the standards that the early Jewish people had. It is the case that food was highly important in social gatherings within Roman culture. To be a good host, food and drink had to be provided in abundance..and since non-Jews did not keep Kosher, Jewish people did not visit a Romans home. From seafoods like lobster to Roast Boars head and even crazy things Roast mouse - which was a big delicacy in Rome, but hardly Kosher. The Roman lifestyle and food made them ritually unclean, even as a Gentile according to the subset of laws for Gentiles residing in the land. Thus, for a Jewish person to enter the home of a Roman/Gentile meant the Jewish person was entering an unclean home and would have to snub the person culturally by not participating in the most important social convention of the society.

And seeing that Cornelius was a Roman Centurion who had power over many and was expected as a government official to honor certain customs, it would not have been a hidden issue when it came to others like Peter doing something radical in eating with him. Cornelius was a centurion (a military captain over 100 men) - and thus, as a captain, he'd also have SOLDIERS required by the empire to surround his home - those soldiers not being clean themselves. Certainly, he might have faced some tough choices between serving God and serving the Roman rulers - and Tradition (of course, not necessarily reliable) says that he became a bishop in either Caesarea or Scepsis in Mysia.

Caesarea was a mainly Gentile city, residence of the Roman proconsul (from A.D. 6 onward) - and it is there that Cornelius, a Roman centurion in command of sixty to one hundred men and the equivalent of an army captain or company commander, resided. His unit was part of the Italian Regiment (the Cohores II Miliaria Italica Civium Romanorum). A cohort had ten centuries and was the equivalent of a modern military battalion. This battalion was an auxiliary unit, not part of a regular Roman legion. Such a battalion of archers was first made up of Roman soldiers and then filled out in the provinces. Technically, Luke does not quite use "God-fearer" (hos phoboumenos or hos seboumenos) as a technical term (Acts 10:2, 22, 35; 13:16, 26, 43, 50; 16:14; 17:4, 17; 18:7). But it does point to that class of monotheistic Gentiles who worshiped the God of the Old Testament, kept the Old Testament ethical code, attended synagogue, observed the sabbath and practiced the main requirements of Jewish piety (Levinskaya 1990). Because they refused to become proselytes, Jews still regarded them as ritually unclean Gentiles. Luke emphasizes Cornelius's piety: regular prayer (the Jewish practice was three times a day: m. Berakot 4:1; compare Dan 6:10) and many acts of charity among the needy of the Jewish people (Tobit 1:16; Sirach 7:10; 16:14; compare Mt 6:1-14). The angel said in Acts 10 that Cornelius's prayers and acts of charity have risen as the aroma of the meal offering rose as a memorial before God (Lev 2:2, 9, 16; Ps 141:2; Tobit 12:12; Longenecker 1981:386)....and thus, for Peter to go and acknowledge that a Gentile's prayers like Cornelius were heard was no small matter.


It was highly controversial for Peter to do as He did - just as it was for Yeshua.

Acts 11:11
Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3 saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”
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That Peter went to uncircumcised men and ate with them was the issue.




And going back to what was noted earlier about environment, People often seem to focus on Acts 11 and think the meeting of Peter and Cornelius was solely about food...but the chapter coming after it doesn't indicate that it was only about eating unclean food that was an issue. To be in the home of a Gentile was to become unclean since they didn't have the same rituals (including removing pottery that had unclean animals on it and other things ). Just because one doesn't eat non-kosher food doesn't equate to them being ceremonially clean if going strictly from dietary laws (Leviticus 11 /Deuteronomy 14 )--many of those laws including animals relevant to the land and not being indicative of all types of animals on earth. The attempt at only eating kosher foods as a barometer for thinking onself to be clean doesn't add up many times since there was more to the ceremonial cleanliness code than food alone. There's also other concerns of having a clean home:

• the issue of whether or not someone had a nocturnal emission the night before ( Deuteronomy 23:9-11 , Leviticus 15:15-17 )
• was currently on their period and sitting on furniture ( Leviticus 12:4-6 /Leviticus 15:19-21 )
• had sexual relations with their spouse during the woman's period ( Leviticus 18:18-20 )
• having a skin disease, touching dead things ( Numbers 18:14 --and soldiers coming home from war would have that as a present reality...the same with Centurions as Cornelius who led others into battle regularly/had to deal with blood )'
• having mold in the home ( Leviticus 13:45 )

Many other things besides that could have been present.....all of that being present when it came to Jews not wanting to eat with Gentiles who had differing standards and thus were deemed to be unclean.

What Peter did with Cornelius in choosing to have lunch with a Gentile was big since it would not have mattered if Peter ate kosher food. What would be known was that Gentiles, deemed as unclean in their lifesytles, were being touched by the apostles. That's really not that different from Christ when he went to unclean places, touched unclean people and had no issue. Jesus could touch a woman with a discharge of blood (Mark 5:25-34, Matthew 9:20) who was ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:25-28) and not permitted to enter the temple section reserved for women nor was she permitted to be in public without making people aware that she was unclean. Her hemorrhaging would have cut her off from many social and religiopus relationships. And in seeing Jesus, she was desperate. When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just had something show up on my Facebook page about Halal meat now being used in Subway, Costco, Walmart and I guess, most American/Canadian grocery stores.

At first I thought no big deal....it just means we're getting clean meat, then I read something I didn't know...that with Halal meat the Muslim slaughterers pronounce a prayer on each animal at the time of slaughter, or they must say "In the name of Allah" just before the animal was killed.

Wouldn't this be basically the same thing as eating meat sacrificed to an idol?

I think this is something very important for us all to watch out for, and at this point, I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian.

If a Muslim asked you or I to eat food with them, I don't see where the Messiah forbide us from doing so since it does reflect Him.

Even as it concerns that which is unclean, I've not seen it where even Jesus seemed to be fearful of that dynamic - and this is seen clearly in the fact that he ATE with sinners. It's hard not to be reminded of the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-31, alongside all the other ones spoken, were shared in light of the Pharisees looking down upon the tax-collectors (deemed traitors/crooks by the Jewish people ) and the prostitutes (unclean, immoral, etc).

Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”


3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
The Parable of the Lost Coin

8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The Parable of the Lost Son

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.


13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.


17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.


“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.


21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in.’”


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The three parables on the subject of being lost and found were never primarily about Gentiles being brought back into the Jewish community (in regards to anyone saying "older brothers" are those Jews who don't believe Gentiles are meant to be the same in stance as the Jews). The portrayal of the elder son and his resentment was in many ways a subtle criticism of the grumbling Pharisees and scribes toward those within the Jewish community who they deemed to be lower-class Jews...ones who weren't as "Worthy" of salvation as they were. It is no small issue when Yeshua noted that the tax collectors/prostitutes were entering in before the religious leaders of Christ's day..as they understood their need of salvation (Matthew 21:30-32 )


In regards to the greater context of Luke 15, why were the Pharisees and teachers of the law bothered that Jesus associated with the people he did? The religious leaders were always careful to stay "clean" according to the OT law. In fact, they went well beyond the law in their avoidance of certain people and situations and in their ritual washings. By contrast, Jesus took their concept of "cleanness" lightly. He risked defilement by touching those who had leprosy and by neglecting to wash in the Pharisees' prescribed manner, and he showed complete disregard for their sanctions against associating with certain classes of people. He came to offer salvation to sinners, to show that God loves them...and he wasn't concerned with the accusations brought to him by being with the "wrong crowd."

The example of Christ with the tax-collectors/"sinners" is something else to keep in mind, in light of the fact that just because one was Jewish in the days of Christ didn't mean they led a kosher lifestyle...

Tax collectors were a trip...with most of them indeed WEALTHY, as it was with Zacchaeus ( Luke 19:1-3 /Luke 19 )..and for those who were tax-collectors, it's something that people often did not want to mix with ...even though Jesus often did went counter to the norms in connecting with them as He often did for those who were outcasts( Matthew 11:19,Matthew 11:18-20, , Matthew 21:31-33/ ,Luke 3:11-13 Luke 3 , Luke 15:1-3 Luke 15, Luke 18:8-10 /Luke 18, etc). When Matthew was called, he did not disguise his past or make any excuse for it, which was humility. Tax collectors were among the most hated and despised in society in society since the money they collected was often extorted for personal gain and partly a tax for Rome, which made them not only theives but traitors to the Jewish Nation. Also, regarding the text, one must keep in mind that there are generally 2 categories of tax collectors: 1.) gabbi collected general taxes on land and property, and a income, referred to as poll and registration taxex; 2.) mokhes colleted a wide variety of use taxes, similar to import duties, buisness license fees, and toll fees. Additionally, there were two categories of mokhes: great mokhes hired others to collect taxes for them; small mokhes did their own assessing and collecting. Matthew was a small mokhes ......and it is likely that there was representivitves of both classes attending Matthew's Feast---ALL of whom were considered social outcasts and of bad reputation. There was still stigma against him when he invited Jesus to come/dine in his home and others were still wondering "Why in the world is Christ fellowshipping with this person who is clearly a sinner?".

For anyone doing sincere research on the types of people who were often at tax-collevtor parties, it'll be apparent that it was not a matter of things being "prime/proper". ...as they were noted to be BUCK WILD!!! For the "religious", Heaven help them if they were there.....but for Christ, He decided to go counter to what many Judeas would've done---and what the Pharisees often did when it came to distancing themselves from anything they thought was unclean. Jesus, in his radical ideology, was able to maintain mobility that the religious leaders simply didn't have...

Christ associated with sinners at morally upright or at least morally neutral places, such as meals in people's homes .

However, because of his love for others, He was willing to go/do what many were not willing to do. I think Jesus was speaking directly to this issue here (Luke 10:25-39)

Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’

​

 

[Truthfrees]

In the scriptures there is a dichotomy between, or an attempt at harmonization of,
A) on the one hand acknowledging that (eg.) Baal is not a real god, as he is presented in Mesopotamian and Sumeric and Canaanite mythology, and
B) on the other hand acknowledging that real, negative spiritual forces are attached to the pagan temples, statues and religious practices.

Hence idols are "nothing" in one sense, but nevertheless do have a negative spiritual side, which is a "something".

(As a side note, there are many such dichotomic harmonizations in scripture. The most famous is the harmonization of justice and mercy.)

We're not to participate in any pagan rituals, including pagan sacrifices, etc. We worship YHWH only.

We're to receive all food with thanksgiving, unless we've been told it's been offered to idols.

YHWH told us what foods we can eat. I see no reason to knowingly eat outside YHWH's instructions. His instructions are wise beyond our comprehension. His people follow His instructions because they trust Him.

Other people may think this is strange, but they can go ahead and eat what they wish then. I think it's strange to belong to YHWH, and not take advantage of His supreme wisdom on all matters. If YHWH says something is unclean, He knows what He's talking about.

We can always ask YHWH on the spot. He loves to hear our questions, and is available to direct us. I often say L-rd, can I do this? What do You say? Tell me what to do? etc.

I learn so much asking the L-rd all through the day what He says, what He wants, what I should do or think, etc. I use everything as an excuse to talk with Him and I sense His pleasure at my constant leaning on Him and acknowledging Him.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Quote isn't working for me now either.

Here's compilation of scriptures about eating food sacrificed to idols:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=idols+food&qs_version=AMP

You can see the whole chapter for each selection by clicking on "full chapter".

Eating food sacrificed to idols involves a sacrifice I think, but in any case, we're told not to eat such food, and not to participate in such celebrations.

Paul is the only one who explains WHY not to eat such food: to avoid wrong appearances, and hurt other people's faith. (Romans 8 and 10)

Paul also makes it clear idols and false gods are not real, but people think they're real, so there's really no big deal about such food other than appearances, and of course the TNK makes it clear the celebrations associated with these sacrifices are to be avoided also.

There's no real malevolent power in the food, in case someone thinks they've been tricked into eating demonized food unaware. That's why Paul says not to ask if the food's been offered to idols. Only refuse it if you've been told it's been offered to idols.

Well, if the slaughterer says, "Bismillahi Allahu Akbar," which I understand means "Allah, may He be exalted," and then kills the animal, that's close enough to a sacrifice to disturb me - if indeed Allah is not YHVH.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

If a Muslim asked you or I to eat food with them, I don't see where the Messiah forbide us from doing so since it does reflect Him.

Even as it concerns that which is unclean, I've not seen it where even Jesus seemed to be fearful of that dynamic - and this is seen clearly in the fact that he ATE with sinners.

I eat with Muslims all the time...I've eaten food prepared by Muslims, for me that isn't really the issue. For one thing, I've only eaten vegetarian items when I'm eating with them.

But now that you bring it up, I'm doubtful that Yeshua would have eaten with Muslims if that religion had existed during his lifetime.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 15&version=NIV

 

[Truthfrees]

Well, if the slaughterer says, "Bismillahi Allahu Akbar," which I understand means "Allah, may He be exalted," and then kills the animal, that's close enough to a sacrifice to disturb me - if indeed Allah is not YHVH.

Whatever YHWH leads you to do is the best, but is a prayer the same as a sacrifice?

Isn't a sacrifice killing something as a blood ritual. I don't know enough about sacrificial offerings.

I'm praying YHWH will make His instructions and shalom clear to you.

I haven't had to deal with this yet, but I think I too might reject halal meats, since they aren't kosher, and they're blessed with a prayer to Allah.

 

[Hoshiyya]

if indeed Allah is not YHVH.

I'm wondering, how is one supposed to discern that ?

For two people to have the same God, must they worship him identically and conceive of him in exactly identical terms ?

Most Muslims would say Allah is the same as the Biblical God, and so would Mormons and JW's. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants also say they have the same (Biblical) God, even though they worship him differently.

What about those Jews who worshipped Hashem, but conceived of him as husband of Ashtaroth and father of Baal ?
Were they worshipping the true God ?

It might be interesting to note that the Eucharist (Catholic crackers) is considered food sacrificed to idols by many Jews and some Messianics.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Whatever YHWH leads you to do is the best, but is a prayer the same as a sacrifice?

Isn't a sacrifice killing something as a blood ritual. I don't know enough about sacrificial offerings.

I'm praying YHWH will make His instructions and shalom clear to you.

I haven't had to deal with this yet, but I think I too might reject halal meats, since they aren't kosher, and they're blessed with a prayer to Allah.

Thank you, Truthfrees. Be blessed.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I'm wondering, how is one supposed to discern that ?

For two people to have the same God, must they worship him identically and conceive of him in exactly identical terms ?

Most Muslims would say Allah is the same as the Biblical God, and so would Mormons and JW's. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants also say they have the same (Biblical) God, even though they worship him differently.

I wonder the same thing. We know that historically it's the same God...they both worshiped the God of Abraham. I just wonder if the Muslims have gotten so far off track they aren't praying to YHVH.
I think until I understand better this is just one of the things I'll have to set aside and avoid Halal meat.

 

[Hoshiyya]

" I just wonder if the Muslims have gotten so far off track they aren't praying to YHVH. "

Well, they pray to Allah. A few of them even pray five times a day. (David prayed seven, and the Levites prayed twice.)

Nobody prays to "YHWH", except those Messianics and Jehovah's Witnesses who venture to mispronounce his name.

Catholics may say Dio and Orthodox may say Bogo, and Arabic-speaking Christians (Copts, Catholics, Maronites) may say Allah Al-Ab, but they refer to the same entity.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Personally I lean toward the Jewish, age-old wisdom that says Islam is a false religion, but Allah is ultimately referring to the true God. This is not something they came up with recently, this goes far back, and was born from experience and deals with reality.

To contrast, Sikhism and Atonism are monotheistic religions, but the one God, the one theos, worshipped by Sikhism, or the one God, the one theos, worshipped in Atonism are not in the same category as the God of Abraham.

When the Jews worshipped Hashem as the husband of Ashtarot, they too were referring to the true God, even though they were doing so in a polytheistic context. Hence the Sikhs are right that there is only one God, but they worship the wrong God; whereas the polytheist or henotheist Israelites would have been right that Hashem was a true God, but they worshipped other Gods alongside him.

 

[Dave-W]

Thank you for posting this link. I'm going to read through it.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a contradiction that Paul said in1 Corinthians 10:23-28 that it's okay to eat meat sacrificed to an idol because "all things are lawful for me," but at the Jerusalem Council he agree that it wasn't okay to eat meat sacrificed to an idol.
And in Revelation 2 Yeshua speaks about the prohibition against eating meat sacrificed to idols.
So how can Paul say, "all things are lawful for me?"

While I understand Paul telling the Corinthians that they could buy meat in the market and not fret over the history of the meat....what I don't understand is Paul saying "all things are lawful for me," because they weren't and they aren't for us either.

I have heard some commentators say (and it makes sense to me) that the phrase "all things are lawful for me," was used in somewhat of a bajoritive sense; perhaps quoting the letter they had previously written to him with their questions. His replies were to clarify and correct their misunderstandings.

"all things are lawful for me," but not all things edify
"all things are lawful for me," but I will not be ruled by them

Does that make sense?

 

[Lulav]

Nothing to loose, thought I'd take a crack at this.

I just had something show up on my Facebook page about Halal meat now being used in Subway, Costco, Walmart and I guess, most American/Canadian grocery stores.

At first I thought no big deal....it just means we're getting clean meat, then I read something I didn't know...that with Halal meat the Muslim slaughterers pronounce a prayer on each animal at the time of slaughter, or they must say "In the name of Allah" just before the animal was killed.

Clean meat by whose definition? Yes you are correct they 'dedicate' the animal to the desert god in other words, sacrifice it to him. So even if you don't do this practice that has already been done. Words are powerful.

Wouldn't this be basically the same thing as eating meat sacrificed to an idol?

I think this is something very important for us all to watch out for, and at this point, I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian.

Exactly! Now other will say it's the say god as the Jews and Christians but if that were so explain how it is that Islam and the Koran teaches that Jews and Christians are infidels and they all should be killed? Does that sound like the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Yeshua?

1. Wouldn't it be marked if it is halal ?

2. Tradition says Islam is not Avoda Zara, though Trinitarianism is.

3. Paul's position seems to be that if you know it has been sacrificed to an idol, then you cannot eat, but if you havent seen it or don't know for sure it has happened, then you shouldnt worry.

Tradition - Talmud - Torah, which does Yeshua teach we should follow?
Did he say to his talmidim "Follow me" or 'Follow Paul" ?

Yes, it is marked when packaged in a store but how would you know if you were getting a sandwich from Subway?
And yes, that is Paul's position, but I try to stick with Yeshua's position, which says do not eat meat sacrificed to idols.

You wouldn't and Subway doesn't have Kosher meat either so it's a moot point. Did you know that the bread Subway uses may also have ingredients use as a sacrifice to idols? Research where L-cysteine
(an ingredient in commercial bread and baked goods) comes from.

I had to look up the definition of Avoda Zara.
So according to Judaism, worship of Allah is not worship of another god? This would be according to the Talmud, right? Just checking to be sure.

Again, talmud teaches that it is ok to do certain things to save one's life. Not calling your neighbors surrounding you demon worshippers may be one of those things.

 

[Truthfrees]

Thank you, Truthfrees. Be blessed.

YHWH bless you also my sister. His wisdom, provision, and shalom in abundance.

 

[Lulav]

Hoshiyya[/b];66455462]Avoda Zara is the name of a famous tractate in Talmud, seder Neziqin, coming right before the even more famous Pirkey Avot. In this tractate, "foreign worship" (avoda zara) is discussed.

Many Jews would say Allah is another version of the same G-d, rather than a different G-d. In Egypt they briefly had a form of monotheism called Atonism, where they worshipped one single god called Aton. This would be Avoda Zara, even though it is monotheistic. Hence there is a distinction between the completely pagan monotheism of Egypt, on the one hand, and the incorrect monotheism of Islam on the other hand.

[edited]

Some Jews may have been lead to believe that, propaganda is rampant where 'political correctness' is concerned.
As far as what happened in Egypt, the god chosen to be the only god, the creator god's name was 'Aten' the great King 'Tut''s original name was 'Tut-ank-aten' which was changed after his father was murdered and he ascended the throne to 'Tut-ank-amun'. His father, Akenaten believed there was only one true god and choose the one who represented the creator god, named Aten, as the one. This does not mean it was an idol. In fact he closed all the temples to the other gods down, which left many a 'priest' out of a job and title and power - which was most likely the reason he was murdered. His son, a mear boy at the time was brainwashed into returning Egypt to Polytheism as he got older but it is speculated that he may have not been all that agreeable to that decision and he was murdered too.

Open Heart[/b];66456658]Eating Halal meat is not Avodah Zarah. At the same time, you are not eating kosher meat either.

Well, that is one opinion, however even Reform Judaism by some Rabbis believe that it is and therefore the reason that Jews should not eat Halal.

What is the Jewish Attitude to Halal Meat?

"Muslims are allowed to eat kosher meat if halal is not available. However, Jews are not allowed to eat halal meat - because a blessing to Allah is said over each animal before it is slaughtered."

It depends on how you take what Rambam said and what country you live it as well.

Hoshiyya[/b];66456714]In my opinion, I think it might be fair to say that Islam is:

a religion based on attributing false words to the true G-d (hence speaking falsely in the name of G-d)

Rachel Rachel[/b];66457462]I'm not disagreeing with you. I've wrestled in my own heart about whether Allah is the same God as YHVH. But some people will tell you Allah is not YHVH.

And those people would be correct. Our G-d is not bi-polar.

No, it isn't kosher but my main concern was the possibility of eating meat sacrificed to another god.
Evidently, that's not anything I need to worry about.

I wish a few others would weigh in on this.

Why don't you think you need to be concerned about this? Your initial reservations were correct.

 

[Lulav]

There are four groups of meat; unclean, clean, kosher and meat offered to idols. Food offered to idols may be clean but if you know its history, you are better off not eating it if there is any other choice.

We know idols are nothing, no matter their name, so they have no power. As for the islamic idol being Yahweh, I would sooner believe that the pope was God.

There is also a group of clean but trief and other categories as well found in Torah.

Let me ask one question here, if Idols are 'nothing' then why are there 45 laws in the Torah regarding idolotry, all prohibitions?

The sin of Balaam was in leading the children astray and after idols, this practice was not just at that time but Yeshua warns against it even in Revelation. This proves that idols had power and were 'something' before Yeshua came and even after.

Simple, if you know, don't eat, and if you don't know, eat the biblical kosher asking God to bless it.

So if you don't know something contains products of swine for example you should just ask god to 'bless it' and what make it clean by that? Vis you should know that we shouldn't ask G-d to Bless our food let alone Bless something he has called an abomination. When we eat we bless G-d not the food, for the provision, do you see the difference?

Yes, this was my point with the whole thread. If a meat is packaged with the indication that it's halal, should it be avoided?

It's true that idols are nothing, but Yeshua's command in Revelation 2:20 and the decision of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was to not eat meat sacrificed to idols. And again - if the god of Islam is a different god, then we shouldn't eat halal meat.
I know that YHVH was the god of Ishmael was YHVH but have they gone off course along the way? I must admit, I don't know that much about Islam.

For meat if it's marked Halal this is not clean, but it is no different to G-d vs a 'clean' animal not slaughtered in the proper manner.

To bind the tribes of Ishmael together who had many, many gods, one was chosen and a 'prophet' was proclaimed. Now besides saying that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same as the one the Muslims worship who through his prophet tells them to kill all Jews and Christians, they also are commanded to once in a lifetime at least go to a place in Saudi Arabia called Mecca and circle around a 'stone fallen from heaven' (a meteorite) many times and then kiss it in reverence. Does this sound anything like what the G-d of AIJ would ask us to do?

This is becoming more and more common, especially with canned/frozen vegetables and rice/pasta pre-packaged meals.

From what I understand of the Halal laws, on things that are not specifically meats like vegetables etc they get their certification by checking to make sure that no non-halal meat is in the product, or alcohol, and L-cysteine, any cheese that contains animal rennet or other things prohibited. From what I can see there is no 'dedication' or name spoken over the ingredients.

Stick with what scripture says... it says if you DONT know dont worry about it

Kinda like, 'don't ask, don't tell'?

And does that mean that if you don't admit outloud to a sin that the sin doesn't exist? Only what people can see, but don't worry about what G-d sees?