Who was it then tell me. COCO the clown.Are the forces of evil who are invading peoples countries turning the other cheek.Birdie said:
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JOHN 1:21-25Who was "That prophet" that they referred to
- Thread starter caller_to_truth
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hello callercaller_to_truth said:Who was it then tell me. COCO the clown.Are the forces of evil who are invading peoples countries turning the other cheek.
Peace
you posted lots of posts and commented on posts that followed my post to you....
however, you didn't comment on my post...
can I know why?
waiting for your post...
let's not take the thread out of its topic, okay?
have fun...
nmII
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We can not know how god looks like or is.No man has the qualities and attributes of GOD.GOD is the creator man is not not even Jesus.GOD is the sustainer man is not a sustainer.GOD has all the powers man is powerless even Jesus said on his own he is nothing he is powerless.GOD know every thing man doesn't even jesus did not thave knowledge of everything.Some body could be close to GOD like the prophets sent they were GODs beloved among the creation but that is as far as it wentnew_manII said:
would you proceed a little further a couple verses only verse 18 onwards and may be the answer is there although christians find all sorts of ways to deny it.
Peace
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S Walch
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The flesh can do nothing, you are correct.
Man is NOTHING without God - we christians beleive that the Holy spirit does things of God through us - not BY us - but through us.
There's a difference between believing that YOU can heal a crippled man, or believing that God heals a crippled man through you.
Man is NOTHING without God - we christians beleive that the Holy spirit does things of God through us - not BY us - but through us.
There's a difference between believing that YOU can heal a crippled man, or believing that God heals a crippled man through you.
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That is right that is why the miracles that jesus performed cannot be used to prove his divinity because it was done by GOD through him.Just like it was done through other prophet. So why do you guys claim jesus is god Cause he performed miracles.S Walch said:
Then so did moses and others.why not worship them too
Peace
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If God magnified His word above all Psalm His name in Psalm 1138:2 do you think He would allow it to be tampered with, so much that it doesn't convey the true message here? I think that John is talking abbot Jesus Christ because in verse 29-30 it says The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
You say you believe the prophets, do you think John the Baptist was a prophet? John 1:6-7 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
No, he wasn't a Baptist, He baptized people in the Jordan River. Some versions call him John the Baptizer. His name was John, and he was a baptizer, that's why he is called John the Baptist and he was sent from God. He said he wasn't that prophet because evidently they knew Jesus was coming but John wasn't that prophet. He wasn't Jesus Christ. Verse 23-27 telll you who John was 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
He was talking about Jesus Christ because the next day Jesus came and John said behold the lamb of God. No, he wasn't calling Jesus a sheep. A lamb was sacrificed every year at Passover in the old testament. In exodus the door posts were smeared with lambs blood. Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins, that''s why John called Jesus the lamb of God.
Jesus was a prophet, He also was the son of man, He also is the son of God, He also is The Way, The Truth and The life and nobody comes unto the Father but by Him. I read on one off these threads that that passage is debatable but whether it was in the original or not it is true. You said we make a lot of insertions intro the bible, that is true. A literal word for word translation would be almost impossible to read. The name of God in the old testament is YHVH, they had no vowels in the original. I said it one time and it sounded like a blowing sound, which by the way is one definition of spirit. That's what God is, a spirit. In the Strong's concordance the words are hagios pnuema or Holy Spirit, 40. hagios, hag'-ee-os; from hagos (an awful thing) [comp. G53, H2282]; sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.Other insertion's are made by bible scholars who I'm sure are lead of God to make them. The meaning of the scriptures is not lost. The message of the bible hasn't changed.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
You say you believe the prophets, do you think John the Baptist was a prophet? John 1:6-7 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
No, he wasn't a Baptist, He baptized people in the Jordan River. Some versions call him John the Baptizer. His name was John, and he was a baptizer, that's why he is called John the Baptist and he was sent from God. He said he wasn't that prophet because evidently they knew Jesus was coming but John wasn't that prophet. He wasn't Jesus Christ. Verse 23-27 telll you who John was 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
He was talking about Jesus Christ because the next day Jesus came and John said behold the lamb of God. No, he wasn't calling Jesus a sheep. A lamb was sacrificed every year at Passover in the old testament. In exodus the door posts were smeared with lambs blood. Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins, that''s why John called Jesus the lamb of God.
Jesus was a prophet, He also was the son of man, He also is the son of God, He also is The Way, The Truth and The life and nobody comes unto the Father but by Him. I read on one off these threads that that passage is debatable but whether it was in the original or not it is true. You said we make a lot of insertions intro the bible, that is true. A literal word for word translation would be almost impossible to read. The name of God in the old testament is YHVH, they had no vowels in the original. I said it one time and it sounded like a blowing sound, which by the way is one definition of spirit. That's what God is, a spirit. In the Strong's concordance the words are hagios pnuema or Holy Spirit, 40. hagios, hag'-ee-os; from hagos (an awful thing) [comp. G53, H2282]; sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.Other insertion's are made by bible scholars who I'm sure are lead of God to make them. The meaning of the scriptures is not lost. The message of the bible hasn't changed.
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caller_to_truth said:
We do not worship Moses because He had no authority in Himself to reconcile us to God as Christ did. Moses had no authority to speak except for what God put in His mouth to speak. God only gave Him laws to deliver to Israel. He had no authority to make judgments based upon those laws as Christ did. There are other distinctions, but those will suffice for now.
Let's analyze these verses to see if Jesus can claim that He is God.
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Either Jesus broke the Sabbath or He didn't. If He broke the Sabbath, He can not be God because He would be a sinner for breaking only one of God's laws. If He was God, He obvioulsy would know that He was not a violator and was free to heal on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Key admission; although some will say that these are just narrations of what Jesus actually said or were just added to enhance the story.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
What other prophet was called Son? These verses show an interdependency of the Father and the Son. They are not acting on their own. There is an intimacy there that can be understood when reading.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Since when did a prophet get power transferred to Himself from God, especially to judge man? Since when did a prophet make judgements? God is the only one to make judgements. Prophets can only do what God tells them to do. They can not judge their peers.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
No prophet had this authority to pronounce judgements like we see here.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
He is pointing to the time after His death and resurrection to those who will hear the Good News and act upon it. The life of those who hear will be quickened by the Holy Spirit. It is the power of the Word that is witnessed by the Spirit that brings about the transfromation of the soul and spirit into reconciliation to Christ.
He definitely gives prophesy like any legitimate prophet should. Who is the Son of God? Some say that this is not an exclusive term and can refer to a common man. I do not see anything common about the bold assertions put forward by The Son.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Who makes judegment on man? Certainly not man. Judgement can only be rendered by our creator, God. God can not give or share His authority with man. If He did, He would no longer be God. He would loose His sovereignity and integrity.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
More judgement......
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because
I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Why did He not seek His own will? Because He agreed to surrender His will to the Father upon relinquishing His Heavely throne so that He could come in the flesh that we may be saved.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
That prophet that was spoken of earlier was not John or Elijah. It was Christ. John was His witness.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
God does not accuse us? Of course, satan accuses us because he is against God. Verse 45 - 47 states it as well as I think it can be stated. Verse 46 references the "I AM".
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I just wanted to repost this last verse because it tells all. If you do not believe what those who came before me - namely John the Baptist - you will not believe the words of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the witness to all things of God and it is manifested in the minds and hearts of every true believer, including me.
Now can we move on to other things or shall we stay stuck here? If you do not accept these scriptures. Nothing outside of a spiritual change will soften your heart to honestly and truly seek to know Christ. I think this as much as needed to be said.
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TheListener
Save a cow - eat a vegetarian!
Someone in whome the Holy Spirit does not dwell will always argue that Christians are dellusional. This isn't the first time, it certainly won't be the last.
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i f you're talking about the war in iraq I think Iraq thanked us for getting rid of Sadam Huisseign., but getting back to your original question So you do agree that the bible at least contains the word of God, you just think you have the right interpretation of it. You say you believe that Jesus was a prophet when He says what you want to hear but if He says something you don't agree with you accuse us of making too many insertions and corrupting the word of God. God magnified His word above all His name but you say we corrupt Word. I think God protects His word. I showed you the scripture where angel told Mary she would have the son of God. you said that was added, I quoted where God said this is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased you said that's an insertion. I can't help you if you're determined not to believe. These are the words in John 1:21 according to the New American Standard concordance which is supposed to be an exhaustive concordance. 21 . . erwtaw:G2065 . tis:G5101 oun:G3767 . . aylias:G2243 . . legw:G3004 . eimi:G1510 . . . . prophaytays:G4396 . . apokrinw:G611 ou:G3756caller_to_truth said:Who was it then tell me. COCO the clown.Are the forces of evil who are invading peoples countries turning the other cheek.
Peace
1. erwtaw, from eromai (to ask); to ask, question:-- ask(18), asked(13), asking(12), asks(3), beg(1), begging(1), made request(1), make request(1), please(m)(2), question(6), questioned(2), request(4), requesting(3).
2. tis, a interrog. pron. related to G5100; who? which? what?:-- anything(m)(1), how*(2), how(7), person(1), something(m)(3), suppose one(m)(2), what(264), what*(5), what each(1), which(27), which one(3), who(116), whom(16), whose(6), why(72), why*(34).
3. oun, a prim. word; wherefore, therefore, then:-- however*(1), now(5), on the contrary*(1), so(72), then(109), therefore(303).
4.. Aylias, of Heb. or. H452; Elijah, an Isr. prophet:-- Elijah(29).
5. legw, a prim. vb.; to say:-- addressing(1), agree*(1), as follows(1), asked(1), bring charges(1), call(8), called(34), calling(1), calls(3), claimed(m)(1), claiming(2), command(3), designated(1), give(1), gives(1), greeted*(1), made(1), mean(2), means(3), meant(1), mention(1), named(3), ordered(2), quote(1), referred to(1), remarking(1), said(1083), say(376), saying(497), says(94), so-called(m)(3), speak(26), speaking(17), speaks(3), spoke(17), spoken(26), stated(1), stating(2), talking(5), tell(69), telling(18), thing spoken(1), things spoken(1), thought(m)(1), told(34), using(1).
6. eimi, a prol. form of a prim. and defective vb.; I exist, I am:-- accompanied*(1), accompany*(2), am(139), amount to(1), amounts(m)(1), appear*(1), art(16), asserted*(m)(1), become*(5), been(45), been*(1), being(26), belong(3), belonged*(1), belonging*(1), belonging(1), belongs(4), bring*(1), came(1), come(m)(5), consist(1), crave*(1), depends*(1), do(m)(1), done*(1), exist(3), existed(4), existed*(1), falls(m)(1), found(1), had(8), happen(2), have come(1), lived(1), mean(m)(2), mean*(2), means(7), originate(m)(1), owns(1), remain(m)(3), rest(m)(1), sided(m)(1), stayed(m)(2), themselves(m)(1), turn(m)(1), wast(2).
7.prophytays, a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will):-- prophet(59), Prophet(4), prophet's(1), prophets(80).
8.apokrinw, from G575 and G2919; to choose, answer:-- answer(16), answered(193), answering(10), in response(1), made an answer(3), make an answer(3), replied(1), reply(1),
respond(1), responded(2), said(1).
9. G3756. ou, ouk, ouch, a prim. word; not, no:-- any the less(2), before*(1), cannot*(49), cannot(1), certainly not*(1), ever*(3), except(1), failed(1), few*(1), great*(1), greatly*(1), impossible*(1), incessantly*(1), kept right on*(2), long*(1), neither(2), neither*(3), never*(18), never(5), no(147), no*(28), none*(2), none(4), nor(3), not at all*(1), nothing*(13), nothing(8), nowhere*(2), number*(m)(2), only*(5), rather than*(2), rather than(1), refrain(m)(1), refused*(1), unable*(6), unaware*(3), unwilling*(13), unworthy*(1), virgin*(m)(2), without*(6), without(2).
A literal word for word translation might be Asked who then Elijah claimed no, asked art thou prophet no. You all say we add too many insertion's, but there are only 9 words in that verse they have to put some insertions in somewhere or it doesn't make sense. I honestly don't know how they could translate it without making some insertions, I wonder how they did it anyway because I can't find enough Greek/Hebrew words. I know some words were translated into phrases, but I don't know why there aren't more words in the coincidences, but I know a word for word translation would be almost impossible to understand.
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Come on markie man you disappoint me I thought you were more knowledgeable than this. Yes we do believe in John not as a baptiser cos we do not baptise but we do believe in him as a prophet son of Zacharia who's wife was barren,same zacharia who looked after Mary as a child, now you must remember that John is an English name His real name in the original bible was not John,In arabic it is Yahya,In hebrew I am not sure but in the original bible it is definitely not John.markie said:
Wow the Quran mentions the story of his parents and his birth read it there is a whole chapter called Mary(mariam) that too mentions about John and Jesus,so does the chapter the family of Imran.
You don't seem to get the point here markie, the question they asked him they already know that he is not the christ he denied that already yet they asked are you that prophet. Since they asked already about christ, then that prophet has to be some bobdy else.Yes they did ask about christ but they asked about another one.Peopole seem to evadethe point which is in front of them.If for example soemone was being questioned in an interview, are you markie , he denies it, are you caller to truth he denies it, then are you That person( what they spoke about or had records about) he denies that too.Now w ecan't turn round and say that the third person they asked about was markie because they already asked about him and the answer was no.It is clear. The way you describr Jesus is like he was a toato in every sauce ,he was a prophet, son of god , god a,d what else.why is it then that when we muslims say Jesus was a prophet we get told no he was not he was god and the son of GOD now you say he wasa prophet.So many contradictions.
Yes the insertions and deletions in the bible was not just translation error it aldsochanged the meanings.In the RSV in the footnotes it mentions that certain verses from the KJV have been ommitted ecasue they wre not in original manuscripts.Now when this happens this changes the original message,things added and removed.
Take a will that has changes in there is not original, then if that is passed on and additions and deletions are made it is not the original will that was made it has become something different.
Any way peace
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TheListener
Save a cow - eat a vegetarian!
That would be very interesting to know who they meant caller_to_truth, but you still avoid my question. If they were asking based on the Old Testament (as the Jews did) then WHERE in the Old Testament does it say another prophet will come after Jesus? Markie answered your question but you don't believe him now I am very interested to know what you base your assumptions on. Where in the Old Testament does it say this and please unless you can show me this drop the subject and accept markie's answer.
God Bless
God Bless
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slayer-2004
Well-Known Member
...sarcasm brain cells screaming...
...must resist banworthy sarcasm...
Err... a typo in the bible ? Its pretty obvious that the koran and holy bible cant really go together in harmony as the differances are too great . Im guessing its just an error .
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markie it is not me who says there are insertions and deletions in the bible,your own scholars and bible writers.read the preface of the RSV and the footnotes you will see that many verses were delted because they were not in the original manuscripts.What does that mean that there is doubt, corruption over the authenticity.When you check what Jesus has said and Analyse it then you find that yeah much of it is similar to what we believe this is the reason why i insist that i don't want to deal with verses other thatn what Jesus said, because others are proven by Bible writers and scholars to be insertions or deleted from another version because they found it doubtful.Now do we play with the word of GOD in this way.Add and remove this does not make it authentic anymore. Markie I am not talking of that verse only I am talking of the Whole bible. The book of moses in the OT tells you when Moses died.Was that written by moses did he know when he died obviously that was inserted by man and many other verses and many deleted too.That particular verse as i said mentions 3 people,the christ, Elias, and That prophet.All are 3 different individuals. or are you using the trinity to define this too.1+1+1=3markie said:
all weere jesus.
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konichiwa slayer.There are many similar verses too this is where there is some agreement some common ground.slayer-2004 said:
sayonara
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Hello caller_to_truth
according to your words and to verse 15. this prophet cannot be Muhmd or any other *man*
for the prophicy says that this prophet will be like GOD himself.
so we consider the subject closed for you closed it by yourself...
about verse 18. review my post and read it carefully.
thanks very much.
next please...
Very good. you answered it by yourself.caller_to_truth said:
according to your words and to verse 15. this prophet cannot be Muhmd or any other *man*
for the prophicy says that this prophet will be like GOD himself.
so we consider the subject closed for you closed it by yourself...
about verse 18. review my post and read it carefully.
thanks very much.
next please...
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The original bible was not written in Arabic, it was written in Hebrew The Jews are God's chosen people and they spoke Hebrew. John's name was , 2491. Ioannes, ee-o-an'-nace; of Heb. or. [H3110]; Joannes (i.e. Jochanan), the name of four Isr.:--John.caller_to_truth said:
I don't think I contradicted myself by saying Jesus was a prophet, a son of man, the son of God, and the way, the truth and the life. Can't he be all 4 of them actually all 7 of them? He is also the good shepherd, He was the son of David in that Joseph was descended from David and Joseph was his earthly father, Jesus was raised by a Jewish family and considered by some to be a basted child, therefore He was considered to be a Jew and probably more.That doesn't negate the other ones. You a son or daughter of your father, you are caller of truth, you are a person you are different things, you are you. I never told you that Jesus wasn't a prophet, I guess other people do because to us He is so much more than a prophet. He is the son of God and to most Christians He is God. That is what we emphasize, to say he was a prophet might sound like somebody is saying Jesus was just another prophet and we believe He was and is the son of God. I don't understand how you can believe in the miraculous birth and not believe Jesus was the son of God. If God said be and He was then He wouldn't have been born, He just was. If he was born, butt not the son oof god He wouldn't have been the son of anybody, if the birth was miraculous. OOr do you think zacharious or somebody had sex it her? There are myths about virgin births but you have to remember it was foretold by God Himself in Genesis 3:15 when He told the serpent about the seed of the woman. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The devil had the whole old testament to mask the virgin birth and the ministry of Jesus Christ.
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Show me wher in the OLD testament it tells you that Jesus will come, done give me a vague verse that could mean any body i want as verse that is specifically telling of the coming of Jesus then i will answer you.TheListener said:That would be very interesting to know who they meant caller_to_truth, but you still avoid my question. If they were asking based on the Old Testament (as the Jews did) then WHERE in the Old Testament does it say another prophet will come after Jesus? Markie answered your question but you don't believe him now I am very interested to know what you base your assumptions on. Where in the Old Testament does it say this and please unless you can show me this drop the subject and accept markie's answer.
God Bless
Peace
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