JDS, What Does It Mean?

[dollarsbill]

Can anyone here explain what JDS means? Yes, I know it means Jesus Died Spiritually. Honestly it sounds like calling Jesus a sinner. I believe that Jesus was sinless.

 

[importunity]

All it means is there was a separation. Death does not mean ceasing to exist. The bible tells us that He (God) made Him Jesus to be sin...

Jesus wasn't a sinner, but the sin of the world past, present and future was placed upon Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The argument about this is usually what happened from the cross to the thrown? Ther is great debate on the subject.

Those that believe Jesus went to paradise use the scripture of Jesus taking to the thief.
Those that believe Jesus went to suffer in hell use the scripture in Acts where He suffered the pains of death.

Now there are more scriptures to debate both views so it all comes down to belief. What do you believe the scriptures are saying?

Is it in context?
Are there parallel passages?
What's the culture?
What's the historical value?
Whose the audience?
What's the Holy Spirit Revealing?
And etc...

When it comes to a balanced view of the bible there are things that must be followed for proper interpretation.

Otherwise it's just another tact to fight and divide.

 

[importunity]

I hate auto correct on the iPhone it messes everything up lol

 

[dollarsbill]

I believe that 2 Cor 5:21 is one of the absolute worst translations we have in our English Bibles. It doesn't make a bit is sense. How could Jesus become sin? No way. He was our sacrifice for our sins. That's why the OT taught much about animal sacrifices. He was our sacrifice, an offering for our sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NLT)
21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (GW)
21 God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (MaceNT)
21 for he hath made him who knew no sin to be a sin-offering for us, that we might be justified by God thro' him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (WesleyNT)
21 For he hath made him, who knew no sin, a sin-offering for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

 

[pdudgeon]

I believe that 2 Cor 5:21 is one of the absolute worst translations we have in our English Bibles. It doesn't make a bit is sense. How could Jesus become sin? No way. He was our sacrifice for our sins. That's why the OT taught much about animal sacrifices. He was our sacrifice, an offering for our sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NLT)
21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (GW)
21 God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (MaceNT)
21 for he hath made him who knew no sin to be a sin-offering for us, that we might be justified by God thro' him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (WesleyNT)
21 For he hath made him, who knew no sin, a sin-offering for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

the problem here is that what God intended for a stepping stone has possibly become for you a stumbling block, in that you may have focused in on the idea of Jesus becomming sin, and thus have problems reconciling yourself to that idea.
verse 20 of that same chapter says:

We are Christ's ambassadors, and God is using us to speak to you. We urge you, as though Christ himself were here pleading with you, "Be reconciled to God!"

what you may have missed is that in John 14:30,31 Jesus is determined to do this very thing.

"I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the prince of this world approaches. He has no power over me, but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let's be going."

When Jesus says that satan has no power over Him, he is doing two things:
1. Acknowledging both the power and the position that God has given to Him as the Son of God.
2. acknowledging that satan also has no power that is not permitted by God, and he cannot change in any way the order that God sets.

those two things are vitally important to us, because they give us the key to unlock the understanding of what comes next.

Jesus' act of obedience in dying for us was to show both his love of God and His love for us. This love right here is the everlasting power which rests and abides in Him, and that is what enables Him to defeat satan.

By acknowledging and accepting that act, we in turn accept and acknowledge His love, viewing Jesus in the same way that the Father views Him.
By doing this and paying the full price in our place, the stumbling block of our sins that forever separates us from God becomes the redeeming Stepping Stone of Jesus' full and sufficient sacrifice for us; we thus come into agreement with God, and are reconciled to Him.

everything that was required by God for the full redemption of sin was done by Jesus on our behalf.

that part i think you've got. but what you're missing is how sin affects us, and what it takes to both remove and reconcile us back to God.

in the OT there were animal sacrifices for sin, and the sins of Israel were put on the scape goat, who was sent off outside of the camp that the sins might be removed from Israel. But all that did was to remove the current sins to a different animal and to a different place. it did nothing to expunge them from the Book of Life, and it was not effective for past or future sins.
It was a stop gap measure only, to get Israel into a closer relationship with God. And so it was one step forward and two steps back for Israel, until Jesus came. And while that scapegoat removed the sins it did nothing to remove their effect on mankind, because the sins were laid on the scapegoat in the same way that you would lay a burden on a pack animal.

Sin affects every part of us--our body, our mind, our soul, our relationships, and every aspect of our whole life. Ask someone who has felt the full effects of sin and come out from it, and they will glady confirm that. Nothing else can draw them out save for the Love of Christ.

In order to fully pay for our sins, Jesus Himself had to take on and experience all of that in our place and triumph over it, in order that we might be fully restored and reconciled to our Father.

that's what it means when we say that He became sin for us.
and that's how greatful we are.
Only Jesus perfect love was strong enough to endure sins full effects and yet triumph over them.

 

[importunity]

I believe that 2 Cor 5:21 is one of the absolute worst translations we have in our English Bibles. It doesn't make a bit is sense. How could Jesus become sin? No way. He was our sacrifice for our sins. That's why the OT taught much about animal sacrifices. He was our sacrifice, an offering for our sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NLT)
21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (GW)
21 God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (MaceNT)
21 for he hath made him who knew no sin to be a sin-offering for us, that we might be justified by God thro' him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (WesleyNT)
21 For he hath made him, who knew no sin, a sin-offering for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

The actual Greek word used is:
g4160. ποιέω poieō; apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct)

 

[importunity]

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT)

The Marginal Notes say in this translation:
To be the offering of sin literally means or to become sin itself.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NIV)

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 ASV)

Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 DRA)

He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 LEB)

 

[dollarsbill]

the problem here is that what God intended for a stepping stone has possibly become for you a stumbling block, in that you may have focused in on the idea of Jesus becomming sin, and thus have problems reconciling yourself to that idea.
verse 20 of that same chapter says:

The idea of Jesus becoming sin doesn't even make any sense. A sin offering? Yes indeed. We are reconciled to God by His Blood sacrifice, physical death and resurrection. Nothing else.

John 1:29 (NASB)
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[importunity]

The idea of Jesus becoming sin doesn't even make any sense. A sin offering? Yes indeed. We are reconciled to God by His Blood sacrifice, physical death and resurrection. Nothing else.



One of the translations you used to prove your point was the New Living Translation:

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT)


The Marginal Notes say
· or to become sin itself

that’s because it’s how it is in the original language.

 

[pdudgeon]

dollarsbill wrote:

The idea of Jesus becoming sin doesn't even make any sense.

can you put into words why it doesn't make any sense? we'd like to help you thru this if we can.

 

[dollarsbill]

dollarsbill wrote:
can you put into words why it doesn't make any sense? we'd like to help you thru this if we can.

Because Jesus was a Blood sacrifice. An offering for our sins. He redeemed us on the Cross. His nature was not sinful. He wasn't born again because He never sinned. Perhaps you're not familiar with the JDS teachings but these are a few of them. He became a sin offering not literal sin.

 

[importunity]

 

[pdudgeon]

Because Jesus was a Blood sacrifice. An offering for our sins. He redeemed us on the Cross. His nature was not sinful. He wasn't born again because He never sinned. Perhaps you're not familiar with the JDS teachings but these are a few of them. He became a sin offering not literal sin.

yes, He was. from the beginning God established that a blood sacrifice was necessary to effect a covering for sin when He covered Adam and Eve with the skins of animals.

yes, He was an offering for our sins. Revelation 1:5 says ..."All praise to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us."
Jesus did more than just covering our sins..He freed us from them.

I am familiar with the JDS teachings. Like you, i began with Jesus, the blood sacrifice for our sins, who died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.

what you are missing here is the fact of exactly how much of an offering it took for the expiation of all those sins that He willingly carried.

If you will go back to the OT and study the sin offerings and how much they increased thru the OT in relation to what they began with, you would find two things:
1. The amount of offering necessary did not stay the same amount for the same sin. Instead, as sin increased the amount of the sacrifice necessary to effect reconcilliation to God increased as well. and that was just to get the Israelites back to the same standing that they had with God before the sin occurred.

2. God extended mercy, realizing that though the people all sinned, they did not all have the wealth to pay the cost of the offerings necessary to expiate their sins.

can you imagine how much the cost would be today if some found it impossible back then?

the point here is that the scape goat only carried the sins away. The goat could never pay for them, much less triumph over the sins that it carried.

when satan came into the garden he brought with him deception, destruction, and death. he still works with those three things today. and part of that deception he uses is to discredit Christ wherever and however he can.

But by the grace of God we have His word and the Holy Spirit to lead us into all that is true.

i think if you will pray and ask God to show you the fullness of Jesus' sacrifice for us, that He will do so. that was Paul's desire--that he could know Jesus, and His suffering, and His glory, so that he could be like Him.
the season of Lent, which begins this Wednesday, would be a good time to begin.

 

[dollarsbill]

i think if you will pray and ask God to show you the fullness of Jesus' sacrifice for us, that He will do so.

Why do you assume I haven't already?

that was Paul's desire--that he could know Jesus, and His suffering, and His glory, so that he could be like Him. the season of Lent, which begins this Wednesday, would be a good time to begin.

Why are assuming things you don't know?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21 NIV).

The NIV is the most reliable English translation that we have. It was translated by a team of the best Bible scholars, using the best manuscripts. It is superior to the KJV because the KJV is a literal translation and often retains the Greek form of word order. The NIV does a better job of amending the Greek word order and using proper English word order.

It is interesting that NIV says exactly the same as the KJV, which means that apart from the word order, both translations say quite clearly that Jesus became sin for us that we may become, in Christ, the righteousness of God. Paul's aim is to contrast sin and righteousness, and intensifies the exchange of our sin and the righteousness of Christ.

The other translations are the paraphased interpretations of the translators who probably had the same difficulty with Jesus becoming sin, so in order to make sense for them, they changed it to saying that Jesus was a sin offering, but if the original Greek was consulted, I'll bet that it really does say that Jesus did become sin for us and not just a sin offering.

The concept of sin offering is Old Covenant. There is no more offering for sin. What Jesus did on the Cross was much more than a sin offering because it ushered in the New Covenant which mean that we are born again and made totally new species of people in Christ. A sin offering could not have done that for us.

 

[dollarsbill]

A sin offering could not have done that for us.

Jesus' Blood can indeed wash away our sins.

 

[pdudgeon]

Why do you assume I haven't already?

Why are assuming things you don't know?

We are here to answer questions about our beliefs. What you do with those answers is your choice, as always. but to recommend that you ask God in prayer about what you desire to know is always good advice.

 

[dollarsbill]

We are here to answer questions about our beliefs. What you do with those answers is your choice, as always. but to recommend that you ask God in prayer about what you desire to know is always good advice.

I can't imagine that anyone seeking God with all his heart wouldn't do this about anything important.

 

[dollarsbill]

Here is a video of Kenneth Copeland saying about Jesus, "He was the first man to ever be born again from sin, sickness, demons, death to life."

Kenneth Copeland - Jesus was born again!!?? - Today's Christian Videos

 

[Tallen]

Three things that should be considered about spiritual death. 1) it isn't a biblical term and therefore is defined in a subjective way by what person is going to use it. Most often this will be a definition that will work to support a supposition that is being read into scripture. 2) if we are going to use the term it should be something that supports biblical doctrine and scripture so clearly that it defines the concept that is meant. JDS fails in doing this. 3) is it even logical?

If Jesus died spiritually we have to assualt His nature by either denying the unity of His person or by denying His divinity. If we accept the notion that He is/was YHWH with us, then if we separate Him from YHWH, we have either denied the unity of His person (He is one person not two) or that He is YHWH (the unity of God).

The Greek word harmatia, is most often translated as sin but also means sin offering. We can see this very clearly in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) when it translates the Hebrew word where it is clearly talking about a sin offering. harmatia is used, and sin offering is clearly the meaning of the word. Check it out.

But most importantly when understand 2 Cor 5:21 the context of the verses is to be considered first. The context is talking about reconciliation and imputing sin. Verse 19 clearly, even by casual reading, leads one to see that the Apostle is talking about how the trespasses are not being imputed to those who are reconciled to God. Instead, He has reckoned Christ's righteousness to the sinner and has reckoned the trespasses of the sinner to Christ. This is how He is made to be sin, by being reckoned that way, not by dying spiritually, but by being reckoned in the stead of the sinner.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:19-21, KJV)

There is no biblical support that Jesus (Yahshua) died a spiritual death. Any verses that are used to try to support that idea are better explained other ways. Logically this doctrine is to be rejected based upon the idea that YHWH is the life giver and Life itself. And we are told explicitely in scripture that all things are created by Yahshua, this of coarse would mean that He is the one that gave Life to Adam. And since Adam had fallen from this Life, and became a transgressor of YHWH's law, it was necessary for YHWH to bring back humanity from this condition. The one who gives life, the one who is Life, does not change or mutate. He is, was and will always be Life. This is a basic understanding of the nature of YHWH, He is immutable.

And finally, the JDS teaching leads to a heretical view of a Born Again Jesus (BAJ), which involves an even more twisted tail and misuse of scripture than JDS.

Blessings db, keep up the good work.