Isaiah 53:4 and Matthew 8:17

[franky67]

Isaiah 53:4

"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried..............."

Matthew 8:16, 17

"And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon possessed, and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill, in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying " He Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases."

Those who do not believe God has included healing in the finished work of Christ, have said;

FIRST, Isaiah 53 is referring to "spiritual healing" ONLY, when it says "by His stripes we are healed".

THEN, when confronted with Matthew 8:16, and 17, where Matthew refers to Isaiah 53:4 when Jesus healed.
When confronted with THIS scripture, they say that only that verse 4 refers to physical healing, and it's talking about when Jesus healed only to prove that He was the Messiah.

Isaiah 53, the whole theme of the chapter is about the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, and does not insert a single verse (out of context ) to describe what jesus did on earth to prove His identity as the Messiah, although He did prove that identity by miracles.

If It's true that Chapter 53 is only about spiritual healing, then why did it please God to put Jesus to "grief" as spoken in verse 10, this word grief is sickness, and if it was sickness in verse 4, then it is still sickness in verse 10.

"But the lord was pleased to crush Him putting Him to grief......"

The word "grief" above is the same word as "griefs" used in the KJV bible in verse 4 above.

So if Jesus didn't really carry the griefs of all creation, why was God pleased to just put those griefs on Him, and what was the purpose for it, if not to bear those griefs ? Isaiah 53:10

Now folks, I didn't post this to start another healing fight, but the above explaination just sticks in my throat, and I havn't been able to swallow it, and after pouring over the above scriptures for the last few weeks, this is what I have come up with.

I would like this to be just a bible study if that's possible.

 

[Strong in Him]

This was my response to a similar point made on another thread.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that Jesus' healings were limited to when he was on earth. I've just always understood that verse to mean that Isaiah prophesied that God's chosen one would be someone who healed and was able to take away sickness, and this was fulfilled when Jesus healed people. Another evidence that he was the Messiah, because he healed just as it had been prophesied that he would.

This is how it reads, to me, in Matthew's Gospel. Matthew has already explained to his readers that Jesus' conception and birth were extraordinary, but that they were fulfilment of Jewish Scriptures. When Jesus began his preaching ministry, described in Chapter 4:12-17, it was a fulfilment of Scripture. All through the Beatitudes we read the phrase "you have been told ..... (reference to Jewish law) but I say to you." And in chapter 8 we begin to read about Jesus' healings, which Matthew says were a fulfilment of Scripture. His Jewish readers would have known immediately the Scripture in Isaiah, which talks about the servant of the Lord, as do chapters 42 and 49 onwards. "The servant of the Lord" came to be an accepted Messianic title. Matthew is saying to his readers, "look, Jesus is the Messiah, he fulfilled all these Old Testament prophecies." He, a Jew, took up our infirmities and healed our illnesses, i.e. the sicknesses of the Jewish people among whom he was living. Or that's how I read it anyway.

I would have expected that if this verse referred to his death on the cross and atonement that Matthew would have repeated in later on in his Gospel so that there was no doubt. At the last supper Jesus said that he would die just as it had been written, and spoke of his blood as being of the new covenant, which was for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28) Surely if his blood had been poured out for mankind's physical healing, he would have made the point clear? But neither Jesus nor Matthew quote Isaiah at this point, far less suggest that his death was for physical healing of mankind.

It is very clear from the New Testament that Jesus died for our sins. Surely if he had also died for our physical healing it would have been taught equally as much? God wants us to hear, and be clear about, all his Gospel, not just part of it.

Jesus does heal today, because he is alive and is the same yesterday, today and forever. The New Testament speaks of a gift of healing, of people being healed through the laying on of hands, the calling of elders and anointing of oil. Surely if healing were already provided for in the atonement, all that would have been needed would have been for the apostles to remind people that they were healed when they accepted Jesus?

Matthew was writing for Jews. His aim was to show that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and he quoted the Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled to show this. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would heal - and Jesus healed. People seem to have linked this verse from Matthew with the next verse from Isaiah and concluded that it means that physical healing is guaranteed by Jesus' death. It does not say that.

 

[christianmomof3]

The many who were demon-possessed and those who were ill represent all the people on earth during the millennium. The millennium is the last dispensation of the old heaven and old earth and is considered the "evening". The casting out of deamons and healing of the sick in this age are a fortaste of the millenium.
All the healings are a result of the Lord's redemption. He took away our infirmities, bore our diseases and accomplished healing for us on the cross. However, the application of this healing power is only a fortaste in this age and will be fully experienced in the millenium.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you who fear My name will the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings and you will go forth and leap about like well-fed calves.

Christ Himself is our healing. We receive His healing every day. His healing causes us to have joy so that we forget our anger and anxiety. We are sick from death, sin and many imperfections. Anything that is not Christ Himself is sick. To be healed means to be saved, to be made whole. Christ will heal us by imparting Himself, His life into us. We want to be fully filled with His life, then we will be fully healed.

 

[lismore]

2 Cor 1:20

20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Through Christ Jesus we are joint heirs with him. The promise 'by his stripes we were healed' is for you and me, for all who have believed in his name. The promise is yes and amen for us.

 

[franky67]

This was my response to a similar point made on another thread.



Matthew was writing for Jews. His aim was to show that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and he quoted the Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled to show this. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would heal - and Jesus healed. People seem to have linked this verse from Matthew with the next verse from Isaiah and concluded that it means that physical healing is guaranteed by Jesus' death. It does not say that.

But why did God put sickness on Jesus, if it was not for the purpose of Him bearing that sickness for us ?

 

[lismore]

But why did God put sickness on Jesus, if it was not for the purpose of Him bearing that sickness for us ?

Indeed. Jesus's blood was shed seven times on that day. Why seven? What were the other six for, or is God a sadist?

 

[franky67]

Indeed. Jesus's blood was shed seven times on that day. Why seven? What were the other six for, or is God a sadist?

Hi, Lis, Good point, did you get the same thing out of verse 10 as I did, IOW, God made a point to put those griefs on Jesus, if not for us, then who ? like you said God is no sadist.

 

[Christina M]

Hi, Lis, Good point, did you get the same thing out of verse 10 as I did, IOW, God made a point to put those griefs on Jesus, if not for us, then who ? like you said God is no sadist.

Where people seem to lose it is when they don't know how to APPROPRIATE it!

We have to appropriate even salvation..... believe in heart... say with mouth... receive. It is no different with anything else of God.

Good word, Franky!

 

[Strong in Him]

But why did God put sickness on Jesus, if it was not for the purpose of Him bearing that sickness for us ?

Scripture doesn't actually say that he did. Paul says that Christ was made sin for us, not that he was made sickness. And if Paul did believe that Christ was made sickness for us, he certainly didn't live it.

Also, why did the early church lay hands on people to heal? Why is there a gift of healing? If this doctrine is true why did the disciples just not teach it and remind those who became sick that Christ had already taken their sicknesses on the cross? There is plenty of teaching in the NT that Christ died for our sins, and that through him we have peace with God. There is none that says that Christ died for our illnesses and we should deny them the right to exist in our bodies. If this was part of the Gospel then anyone who was/is sick should have been/should be physically healed at the same time that they are forgiven. If this was part of the Gospel, Jesus, and the disciples, would have taught it, clearly and emphatically so there could be no mistake.

 

[christianmomof3]

Scripture doesn't actually say that he did. Paul says that Christ was made sin for us, not that he was made sickness. And if Paul did believe that Christ was made sickness for us, he certainly didn't live it.

Also, why did the early church lay hands on people to heal? Why is there a gift of healing? If this doctrine is true why did the disciples just not teach it and remind those who became sick that Christ had already taken their sicknesses on the cross? There is plenty of teaching in the NT that Christ died for our sins, and that through him we have peace with God. There is none that says that Christ died for our illnesses and we should deny them the right to exist in our bodies. If this was part of the Gospel then anyone who was/is sick should have been/should be physically healed at the same time that they are forgiven. If this was part of the Gospel, Jesus, and the disciples, would have taught it, clearly and emphatically so there could be no mistake.

Matthew 8:16, 17

"And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon possessed, and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill, in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying " He Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases."

Also, if you focus on the healing, why do you ignore the casting out of demons here?

 

[TreeOfLife]

Franky, you the man!

 

[JimB]

Can't​

we

change

the
subject!​

​

 

[TreeOfLife]

Can't​

we​

change

the

subject!​

​

Who do you think you are?

 

[JimB]

These
healing
threads
just
go
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on
and
on

​

 

[Hisgirl]

.
Christ Himself is our healing. We receive His healing every day. His healing causes us to have joy so that we forget our anger and anxiety. We are sick from death, sin and many imperfections. Anything that is not Christ Himself is sick. To be healed means to be saved, to be made whole. Christ will heal us by imparting Himself, His life into us. We want to be fully filled with His life, then we will be fully healed.

Christianmomof3...welcome to CF! I wanted to address one thing here...you said 'to be healed means to be saved' Jesus 'healed' many in the gospels and directly afterwards, a disease was gone. I believe it means the exact same thing today as it meant back then.

I was raised in a church that NEVER talked about God healing today. But the day came when I was empowered with His Holy Spirit in an astounding way....someone asked for a prayer of healing, I awkwardly did it, and God healed...a surgery was canceled. Another asked for healing for lupus, and I awkwardly prayed for healing and healing came that week.

Again and again, I've seen it...IMO, healing is healing is healing...salvation and redemption of our spirits is another thing. All manifestations of God's awesome love.

 

[probinson]

Jim M,

Welcome to CF. It's a public forum where people are free to discuss whatever topic they so choose, so long as it is within the rules of this forum. If you do not wish to take part in these discussions, it is in your best interest to not post in them, because each time you post, you bump the topic to the top of the list.

I would like to point something out to you:

This is the New Thread button, which can be found at the top and bottom of each forum at CF. Anyone registered with the forum is welcome to click this button at any time and create a topic on whatever one desires, once again, providing it is within the rules of the forum.

 

[JimB]

I am so happy for the lecture, Pete. What would I do without you?

You do have to admit that we are becoming a bit, um, obsessed with trying to convince the other side of the merits of our case on healing. Maybe it’s just time we agree to disagree.

But, of course, this is JMO.

Sincerely,
~Doug Graves

 

[probinson]

I am so happy for the lecture, Pete. What would I do without you?

You do have to admit that we are becoming a bit, um, obsessed with trying to convince the other side of the merits of our case on healing. Maybe it’s just time we agree to disagree.

But, of course, this is JMO.

Yes, I do have to admit we're rehashing the same things. But I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I surely don't know everything there is to know and everytime I participate in a thread like this, I learn something new. I even learn from my "opponents". Personally, I enjoy the debate so long as it remains about the topic at hand and does not turn to personal attacks. When I grow tired of the debate, I just stop posting.

If you grow weary of the topic, please feel free to start another topic.

 

[Strong in Him]

Matthew 8:16, 17

"And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon possessed, and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill, in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying " He Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases."

Jesus healed them in order that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled. Isaiah 53:4 was fulfilled when Jesus went around Galilee healing the sick. Matthew doesn't say that it was his death on the cross that bought this healing, and does not quote Isaiah 53 again, though he could quite easily have done so when Jesus said "this is my blood of the New Covenant poured out for the forgiveness of sins." Neither he, nor more importantly Jesus, said that it was poured out for healing too.

Christianmomof3 this is a general response, I'm not getting at you. Thank you for the reps.

 

[lismore]

Acts 28

7There was an estate nearby that belonged to Publius, the chief official of the island. He welcomed us to his home and for three days entertained us hospitably. 8His father was sick in bed, suffering from fever and dysentery. Paul went in to see him and, after prayer, placed his hands on him and healed him. 9When this had happened, the rest of the sick on the island came and were cured.

Its a pity some of you folks werent around you could have corrected Paul and stopped him healing everyone.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the healing cannot have been for Jesus ministry alone because its in the ACTS.

God Bless You all!