Is the Rapture credible?

[ARBITER01]

It’s true that Christ loves His church deeply — Ephesians 5:29 is a beautiful picture of that care. But love doesn’t always mean escape from suffering. In fact, Scripture repeatedly shows that believers are called to endure tribulation, not be removed from it.

Jesus Himself said in John 16:33, “In this world you will have tribulation; but take heart, I have overcome the world.” He didn’t promise His followers exemption from hardship — He promised His presence and ultimate victory through it.

The early church knew this well. In Acts 14:22, Paul and Barnabas encouraged believers by saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” And Paul himself wrote in Romans 8:36, “For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Yet, he adds that in all these things “we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”

The idea that Christians will be raptured out before tribulation assumes that God's wrath and the tribulations of the end times are the same thing. But there’s a distinction. God knows how to preserve His people through His judgments — just like He protected Israel during the plagues in Egypt (Exodus 8–12), or Noah in the ark, or the faithful remnant in Babylon.

And what about the martyrs in Revelation 6:9–11 and Revelation 20:4 — those who were killed for their testimony during the tribulation? They are called blessed, and they reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These aren’t people who missed the rapture — these are faithful believers who endured and overcame.

Christ nourishes and cherishes His church, yes — and sometimes that means walking with her through the fire, not lifting her out of it.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Wrath and tribulation are not synonymous in scripture.

We are not the subject of GOD's wrath in scripture, in particular, Revelation. We won't be here when the vials are being poured out upon the ungodly., and that's because we are not the ungodly.

You can try to make that case all you want, but I'm not about to accept it. Not one bit.

 

[1Tonne]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Wrath and tribulation are not synonymous in scripture.

We are not the subject of GOD's wrath in scripture, in particular, Revelation. We won't be here when the vials are being poured out upon the ungodly., and that's because we are not the ungodly.

You can try to make that case all you want, but I'm not about to accept it. Not one bit.

You're absolutely right that believers are not appointed to God's wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) — and I wholeheartedly agree with that. But the key question is: What do we mean by God’s wrath?

Scripture speaks of two kinds of wrath:
1. Temporal/Eschatological Wrath – This includes the judgments God pours out on the world throughout history and especially in the last days (like the plagues on Egypt, or the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation). These are real and devastating, but they're often targeted. Just as God shielded Israel from many of the plagues in Egypt, He can preserve His people through these judgments without removing them from the earth.
2. Final Wrath – This is the eternal judgment: condemnation and separation from God in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). This is the wrath that believers are fully and forever saved from through the blood of Christ. We will not face this condemnation, though we will be judged. (Romans 5:9; John 3:36).

So yes, we are not appointed to wrath, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we won’t experience tribulation, nor does it mean we won’t be on the earth during times of judgment. As you rightly pointed out, wrath and tribulation are not the same thing.
Jesus said: “In the world you will have tribulation…” (John 16:33)
Paul told believers: “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)
These aren’t references to God's wrath, but to suffering at the hands of the world and the schemes of Satan

And in Revelation, we clearly see believers present during the tribulation:
-The souls under the altar who were “slain for the word of God” (Rev 6:9–11)
-The multitude who “came out of the great tribulation” (Rev 7:14)
-The saints who refused to worship the beast and were martyred (Rev 13:7–10; 20:4)
These aren’t unbelievers — they’re faithful followers of Christ. While they face tribulation and even death, they are not the target of God’s final wrath. They are vindicated and go on to reign with Christ.

I appreciate where you're coming from. I just believe that believers may still be on earth during God’s temporal judgments, while being spared His eternal wrath.

 

[Clare73]

The topic, that is the topic of the meaning of saint Paul's words in First Thessalonians, was previously addressed around two thousand years ago. That you've decided to support views invented in the nineteenth century

Falls somewhat short of a demonstration of my assertion, as well as a Biblical demonstration of your assertion, without which your assertion is meritless.

 

[Clare73]

I addressed the first part of the deal you made, and now you have backed out of your part. I knew you would not keep to your word. Hollow.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[ARBITER01]

You're absolutely right that believers are not appointed to God's wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) — and I wholeheartedly agree with that. But the key question is: What do we mean by God’s wrath?

Scripture speaks of two kinds of wrath:
1. Temporal/Eschatological Wrath – This includes the judgments God pours out on the world throughout history and especially in the last days (like the plagues on Egypt, or the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation). These are real and devastating, but they're often targeted. Just as God shielded Israel from many of the plagues in Egypt, He can preserve His people through these judgments without removing them from the earth.
2. Final Wrath – This is the eternal judgment: condemnation and separation from God in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). This is the wrath that believers are fully and forever saved from through the blood of Christ. We will not face this condemnation, though we will be judged. (Romans 5:9; John 3:36).

Correct.

One slight stipulation, our works will be judged, not us. There is a difference. (2 Cor 5:10)

So yes, we are not appointed to wrath, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we won’t experience tribulation, nor does it mean we won’t be on the earth during times of judgment. As you rightly pointed out, wrath and tribulation are not the same thing.
Jesus said: “In the world you will have tribulation…” (John 16:33)
Paul told believers: “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)
These aren’t references to God's wrath, but to suffering at the hands of the world and the schemes of Satan

Correct.

Each of us will experience their own wilderness and trials in this reborn life. We are also to overcome them by the hand of GOD, and continue to become Christ-like, doing His works, not our own.

And in Revelation, we clearly see believers present during the tribulation:
-The souls under the altar who were “slain for the word of God” (Rev 6:9–11)
-The multitude who “came out of the great tribulation” (Rev 7:14)
-The saints who refused to worship the beast and were martyred (Rev 13:7–10; 20:4)
These aren’t unbelievers — they’re faithful followers of Christ. While they face tribulation and even death, they are not the target of God’s final wrath. They are vindicated and go on to reign with Christ.

Correct.

Scripture is clear that there will be people during that timeframe who turn from their sin towards GOD and become new Christians. They will most likely all be martyred at some point.


The contention here is,.... will the current batch of born from above believers remain here upon the earth once the man of lawlessness is revealed and go through the events described in Revelation?....

Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him,

2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any manner; because that day will not come, unless the falling away come first, and the man of lawlessness be revealed—the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 he that opposes himself against, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he sits in the temple of God, exhibiting himself as God.


Now,.....people can try to make out this scripture section to mean a lot of different things (and they have over the centuries), but it is clearly teaching a "day of The Lord" will happen once the man of lawlessness is revealed in the earth. That day amounts to a "gathering together unto Him."

Take it however you will and however you wish, but a "day of The Lord" and a "gathering together unto Him" is a big event. I understand it as the body of Christ being removed from the earth. I see no other explanation being given to me by The Holy Spirit, hence I will continue to trust His teaching to me on this and not mankind's.

I appreciate where you're coming from.

And I appreciate your honest approach.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Falls somewhat short of a demonstration of my assertion

It is not my intention to demonstrate (support) your assertion.

as well as a Biblical demonstration of your assertion

what assertion would that be?

without which your assertion is meritless.

Do you mean this?

The topic, that is the topic of the meaning of saint Paul's words in First Thessalonians, was previously addressed around two thousand years ago. That you've decided to support views invented in the nineteenth century by leaders of some of the worlds non-christian bible-quoting religions and by a number of people who indirectly became the founders of a few restorationist christian religions isn't evidence supporting the interpretations that you claim are true.

This passage is about the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age in which we live.

We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God,through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven,and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words.​

1Th 4:13-18 NAB
There's nothing about a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation 'rapture', nothing that is remotely like the novels "Left Behind" and its sequels. Those are religious folk stories that mislead and deceive the people who take them to heart, incorporating them into their eschatology.

 

[Clare73]

It is not my intention to demonstrate (support) your assertion.

what assertion would that be?

Do you mean this?

Got me! . . .that should be "refutation" rather than "demonstration."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Got me! . . .that should be "refutation" rather than "demonstration."

Your post has nothing to contribute does it?

 

[Clare73]

Your post has nothing to contribute does it?

"That you've decided to support views invented in the nineteenth century by leaders'" is your assertion regarding me (post #84)
and which assertion of yours falls short of a demonstration (supported by facts).

 

[1Tonne]

Previously addressed. . .

Please show me the post where you explained that the apostles believed in the rapture.
You made a deal in post number 70 saying that if I explained 1 Thes 4:13-18, then you would show me where the evidence is that the apostles believed in the rapture. So, I completed my part of the deal you proposed but now you are backing out of your part. You have not shown evidence. You are simply saying that you have already done it. But you have not.

You need to understand something clearly: when you say you'll do something and then don't, you're not just being forgetful or flaky, you're being dishonest. Your word is supposed to mean something. If people can't trust what you say, then what do you have left? Every time you break a promise or fail to follow through, you're showing that you have very low integrity. That’s not just disrespectful—it’s weak. If you want to be taken seriously, then grow up, take responsibility, and start honouring your word. Otherwise, don’t expect people to believe anything you say.

 

[Clare73]

Please show me the post where you explained that the apostles believed in the rapture.

Posts #62, #64, #70.

See post #45 for full explanation.

You made a deal in post number 70 saying that if I explained 1 Thes 4:13-18, then you would show me where the evidence is that the apostles believed in the rapture. So, I completed my part of the deal you proposed but now you are backing out of your part. You have not shown evidence. You are simply saying that you have already done it. But you have not.

You need to understand something clearly: when you say you'll do something and then don't, you're not just being forgetful or flaky, you're being dishonest. Your word is supposed to mean something. If people can't trust what you say, then what do you have left? Every time you break a promise or fail to follow through, you're showing that you have very low integrity. That’s not just disrespectful—it’s weak. If you want to be taken seriously, then grow up, take responsibility, and start honouring your word. Otherwise, don’t expect people to believe anything you say.

 

[Dan Perez]

Your post has nothing to contribute does it?

# 1There is NO Greek word called RAPTURE in the KJV , PERIOD /

#2 And Paul uses several Greek words to describe What many call the Rapture '

#1 In 1 Thess 3:13 the Greek word COMING // PROUSIA !

# 2 In 2 Thess 2:1 COMING // PROUSIA

#3 1 Thess 17 , CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO .

# 4 2nThess 2: 3 DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA

And verse 2:4 explains where the anti-christ BEGINS .

And in 2 Thess 2:5 says , Do you NOT remember that , BEING yet with you , I SPOKE these things to you , and we see

that they knew all about the DEPARTURE of the BODY of Christ and that the anti- christ would follow , and knew it 2000

years ago .

This why I am a DISPENSATINALIST , PRE-TRI and PRE-MIL !!

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"That you've decided to support views invented in the nineteenth century by leaders'" is your assertion regarding me (post #84)
and which assertion of yours falls short of a demonstration (supported by facts).

You support a rapture theory and rapture theories originated in the early nineteenth century through the twentieth century and are still being modified today.

"The concept of the rapture, as understood in modern Christian eschatology, has its roots in the 1830s. John Nelson Darby, a theologian associated with the Plymouth Brethren, is credited with developing the dispensational premillennialist view of the rapture. This theory interprets biblical prophecies as future events and distinguishes the rapture from the second coming of Jesus Christ [ Rapture - Wikipedia ].​

​

The term "rapture" itself originates from the Latin word raptura, meaning "seizure" or "carrying off," and is derived from the Greek word harpazo, which appears in the First Epistle to the Thessalonians. The belief gained traction among American evangelicals and fundamentalist theologians, becoming a significant part of their eschatological framework [ Rapture - Wikipedia ]."​

History is the documentation. The Wikipedia article is supported by numerous documents listed here Rapture - Wikipedia

this is one of the interesting bedfellow documents one can find on the internet - Wayback Machine

 

[1Tonne]

Posts #62, #64, #70.

See post #45 for full explanation.

The closest you have to any explanation is the following post 64:

1 Th 4:16-17 couldn't be more clear and requires no more "interpretation" than does Jn 3:18.

That's a pathetic fig-leaf. . .any ole' port in a storm. . .reveals a lot about your "hermeneutics."

And personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8)
does not overturn plainly and clearly stated NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16).

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate, from didactics rather than from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles subject to more than one interpretation, my Biblical error in any of the above.

In this post and the other posts, you mentioned, you are not willing to explain your rapture theory. You just posted 1 Thes 4:16-17 then you say that the verses do not need any explanation. In saying this, later, you then asked me to explain these verses, which I have done, and they did not show anything about your rapture theory.
Then you have the gall to say that I have bad hermeneutics when you are the one who cannot defend your belief. That is very hypocritical, and it is laughable.

Then you go on to preach another one of your false doctrines that you also cannot defend. You say that all prophecy is given in figurative riddles, when I have shown you literal prophecies. Such as in the Old Testament, the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, he would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and he would take on the sins of the world.
This "reveals a lot about your hermeneutics." Very poor.

So, I have come to the conclusion that you are not going to defend your position as you are unable to.
If anyone wants, they can look back at posts 45,62,64 or 70, and they will see that there is no explanation (These are very short posts with really nothing in them. So have a look). Clare73 cannot defend her position.

I find it rather amazing that you are willing to try and debate everyone for years on this and you keep saying the same thing over and over, but then when one person asks you to defend your position, you then run to the hills.

 

[Dan Perez]

You support a rapture theory and rapture theories originated in the early nineteenth century through the twentieth century and are still being modified today.

"The concept of the rapture, as understood in modern Christian eschatology, has its roots in the 1830s. John Nelson Darby, a theologian associated with the Plymouth Brethren, is credited with developing the dispensational premillennialist view of the rapture. This theory interprets biblical prophecies as future events and distinguishes the rapture from the second coming of Jesus Christ [ Rapture - Wikipedia ].​

​

The term "rapture" itself originates from the Latin word raptura, meaning "seizure" or "carrying off," and is derived from the Greek word harpazo, which appears in the First Epistle to the Thessalonians. The belief gained traction among American evangelicals and fundamentalist theologians, becoming a significant part of their eschatological framework [ Rapture - Wikipedia ]."​

History is the documentation. The Wikipedia article is supported by numerous documents listed here Rapture - Wikipedia

this is one of the interesting bedfellow documents one can find on the internet - Wayback Machine

And 2 Thess 2:5 Paul says to that ASSEBLY , DO YOU NOT remember that , being with you , I spoke these things to you ?

and there bn NEW about the coming of Christ and the antichrist for over 2000 years >

And 2 Thess 2: 1 you have the word COMING // PAROUSIA

And in 2 Thess 2:3 yu have the word DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA should come FIRST // PROTOS amd the MAN of SIN

shpuld be revealed the son of DESTRUCTION .

And verses 13-- 17 and you have the DEPARTURE of the BODY of CHRIST


Then the anti-christ will be revealed

Then the GREAT TRIBULATION


Then the MILLINNIAL KINGDOM

dan p

 

[1Tonne]

Now,.....people can try to make out this scripture section to mean a lot of different things (and they have over the centuries), but it is clearly teaching a "day of The Lord" will happen once the man of lawlessness is revealed in the earth. That day amounts to a "gathering together unto Him."

Take it however you will and however you wish, but a "day of The Lord" and a "gathering together unto Him" is a big event. I understand it as the body of Christ being removed from the earth. I see no other explanation being given to me by The Holy Spirit, hence I will continue to trust His teaching to me on this and not mankind's.

2 Thes 2:1 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you"
I can understand where you are coming from. You view "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", and also "our gathering together to Him" as one event.
I see these as 2 separate events. The first being when the our Lord comes and defeats the antichrist with the martyrs. Then after they have reigned for 1000 years, we will be gathered together to Him in the clouds on the last day.

Another verse that many who believe in the rapture use is Matthew 24:40-41.
"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."
I think you will find my explanation of Matthew 24 very insightful. It will be well worth reading.

So, Matthew 24:39-41
I believe that to understand these verses, we need to read the previous verses. This keeps them in context.
So, we need to take note of verses 15-22 to keep it in context.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—[let the reader understand— 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house. 18 And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 Moreover, pray that when you flee, it will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

We can see that the beast and his minion army are advancing and that they have even made it to the Temple in Jerusalem. As they advance, they are killing the elect (the believers). Then in verses 16-18 it warns them to get away fast. If they don't, then they will be taken away to tribulation and killed. These people are not raptured out. They stay through the tribulation period and are told to flee. Do not look back. Flee fast for your life.

Then after these verses, the tribulation, we see Christ's return in Matt 24:29-31.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Next, we have verses 32-39 which are simply saying to be ready. You will be able to tell that Jesus is returning soon, as we will know the signs. So, if you see the antichrist in the Temple, then you know that the time of Christ's return is imminent. But like in the days of Noah, people will not be ready. They will be eating and drinking and living life as they always have. But make sure you are ready.
These verses also say that the generation that sees these things start will also see them completed.
“32 Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Lastly, we have verses 40-41
"At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."
This is simply saying that as the beast's armies advance, there will be two people in a field, one will be left, but the believer will be taken to tribulation. Back in verse 18 even says that if you are in the field, don't waste time by going to get your cloak, flee.
Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be left, and the believer will be taken to tribulation. SO, FLEE. As it says in verses 16-18, flee. Be ready. Don't be taken to tribulation, but know from the parable (verse 32) that we need to be ready to flee.
These verses are often taken badly out of context when people apply them to the rapture. They are not about the rapture. They are about the tribulation and then Christ comes and conquers the antichrist after the tribulation.

 

[1Tonne]

Your post has nothing to contribute does it?

You will find that many of Clare73's posts are like this. She cannot defend her position.

 

[ARBITER01]

I see these as 2 separate events.

...and because of that, you've made a mistake.

We are all susceptible to misunderstanding scripture. What matters the most is who has to desire to seek their answers from GOD, and wait upon HIM to receive them, instead of accepting answers from men.

Good day.

 

[1Tonne]

...and because of that, you've made a mistake.

That statement is very subjective. You may be the person making the mistake, as what I teach does not go against other scriptures

Jesus and the disciples all believed that believers are raised on the last day. Not before. And we know that the last day is the day of judgment.
So, martyrs (those who sleep in Him) are raised early, as Revelation 20 says, but the rest of the believers are not raised until the last day.

• John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
• John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
• Daniel 12:1-2 .....at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (The books are opened at the GWT judgement. So, the last day)

It's pretty clear that believers are raised on the last day and that the only people who return with Christ to reign for 1000 years are the martyrs. Those who are raised before the last day and reign with Him are those who have been killed for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and they did not worship the beast or his image.

How do you explain what Jesus and the disciples believed?

 

[ARBITER01]

That statement is very subjective. You may be the person making the mistake,

Well let's take a look at those passages again in 2 Thess that I posted and see if that section breaks it into two separate events,....


2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him,

2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any manner; because that day will not come, unless the falling away come first, and the man of lawlessness be revealed—the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 he that opposes himself against, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he sits in the temple of God, exhibiting himself as God.


I used the same literal translation in both of these posts, and as we see here, only one day and one event is being talked about in the Greek, not two. The context surrounding the passages matters, not how much scripture we can throw at an idea to try and make it fit our beliefs.

Again, as I said already, you've made a mistake on this, and you need to correct that first, or you'll continue to make more.