Is the Marriage Bed Undefiled?

[AlexDTX]

I usually read the King James Bible, not because I think it is superior, but because it is what I have always read and it is easier to find verses in the KJV. But with the advent of Bible Software programs it is easier to read other translations and make comparisons. This morning I read the International Standard Version of the book of Hebrews and was startled to read their translation of 13:4. In the KJV it says this:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Heb. 13:4 KJV)​

I had always thought it meant that in marriage all sexual activity was permissible since it was contained in the covenant relation of marriage. However, to violate that marital trust by adultery or fornication would be judged by God.

But the ISV gives a different sense to the verse:

Let marriage be kept honorable in every way, and the marriage bed undefiled. For God will judge those who commit sexual sins, especially those who commit adultery. (Heb. 13:4 ISV)​

In this translation I get the sense that some sexual activity in marriage can defile the marriage bed as well as adultery.

Frankly, after 25 years of marriage, I think I was mislead by my interpretation of the KJV. I think the ISV better states the point of view of God. I had a period where I was caught up in porn while married (of which God delivered me many years ago), and my wife knew it. I was stunned when she said once that she will not be used as a piece of pornography. I also, through time, gradually became aware that her submitting to my desires was not always a pleasure for her. Even though Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 7:5 not to "defraud one another" of sexual engagement, marital intercourse is to be an expression of mutual love, preferring the other over self.

I am sure this is more of a problem with men than women since our sexual gratification tends to go "whole hog" for our own pleasure. But I am interested in what others think about this point: Not anything goes, only what is acceptable to both parties.

 

[GeorgeJ]

But I am interested in what others think about this point: Not anything goes, only what is acceptable to both parties.

I am definitely in agreement with this statement. I don't believe that any spouse should have to perform in a manner that is not comfortable to them.

When it comes to certain sexual acts, a partner may not feel sexual pleasure in performing those acts, but may be doing so in order to please the other partner. I see no problem with this as long as it is not bringing discomfort.

 

[BukiRob]

I usually read the King James Bible, not because I think it is superior, but because it is what I have always read and it is easier to find verses in the KJV. But with the advent of Bible Software programs it is easier to read other translations and make comparisons. This morning I read the International Standard Version of the book of Hebrews and was startled to read their translation of 13:4. In the KJV it says this:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Heb. 13:4 KJV)​

I had always thought it meant that in marriage all sexual activity was permissible since it was contained in the covenant relation of marriage. However, to violate that marital trust by adultery or fornication would be judged by God.

But the ISV gives a different sense to the verse:

Let marriage be kept honorable in every way, and the marriage bed undefiled. For God will judge those who commit sexual sins, especially those who commit adultery. (Heb. 13:4 ISV)​

In this translation I get the sense that some sexual activity in marriage can defile the marriage bed as well as adultery.

Frankly, after 25 years of marriage, I think I was mislead by my interpretation of the KJV. I think the ISV better states the point of view of God. I had a period where I was caught up in porn while married (of which God delivered me many years ago), and my wife knew it. I was stunned when she said once that she will not be used as a piece of pornography. I also, through time, gradually became aware that her submitting to my desires was not always a pleasure for her. Even though Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 7:5 not to "defraud one another" of sexual engagement, marital intercourse is to be an expression of mutual love, preferring the other over self.

I am sure this is more of a problem with men than women since our sexual gratification tends to go "whole hog" for our own pleasure. But I am interested in what others think about this point: Not anything goes, only what is acceptable to both parties.

I think your earlier view is correct. The Greek points to adultery.
In my opinion, sometimes the Jewish view on marriage can be very instructive. Sexual pleasure is the RIGHT of the woman in marriage and it is PART of the marriage contract. Women tend to be by nature GIVERS. We men tend to not be so good at giving.

I think whatever your wife is comfortable doing is the gauge that should be used to guide one. Typically and especially for a young man, his pleasure is always achieved and not so for the woman. We in the west have a tendency to not talk about things even with our spouses and this IMO is a mistake.

 

[Dave-W]

In this translation I get the sense that some sexual activity in marriage can defile the marriage bed as well as adultery.

I agree with this.

In acts 15 Gentile christians are commanded to avoid 4 things: Idolatry, fornication, strangled meat and blood.

The word "fornication" is a common translation for the greek pornia. But since many of the predominately gentile congregations had leaders from the Jewish diaspora, and many of the gentiles (like Cornelius) were "God fearers" who were already somewhat Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy) observant (although not circumcised), the question came up in my mind a few years back as to what that word (pornia) meant in the Greek speaking Jewish diaspora community. Some old Jewish writings (and even a few christian commentators) seem to suggest that it was used to indicate anything that violated Torah sexual commands. So that would include sex during menses.

 

[Greg J.]

What determines what is sinful or not in terms of our relationship with God is what is in the heart of the actor and how he believes it will affect others. God transforms our hearts more into his likeness as we live for him and live like him. We have Scripture to reveal God and what he is like to us. Those that are saved will act in accordance with God's nature and his commands to us.

Things we do can harm us (Romans 6:23) even though God recognizes we didn't know better (Romans 5:13-14) and thus doesn't hurt our relationship with him. (This is one reason why it is necessary to learn what is sinful rather than remain ignorant.)

Marriage is not a license to do whatever you want, sexually. All actions (sexual or not) can be done with or without purity or selflessness. Certainly sexual pleasure is an idolatry for some people, but that is because of what is in their hearts.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (bold mine, Ephesians 5:25, 1984 NIV)

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (bold mine, 1 John 3:16, 1984 NIV)

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (bold mine, John 15:12-13, 1984 NIV)

These apply more regarding one's spouse than a brother or sister. God is forming a married couple into one; it is supposed to be the closest earthly relationship there is (greater than friend, brother, sister, parents, or children).

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. (bold mine, Philippians 2:3, 1984 NIV)

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— (bold mine, Ephesians 5:28-29, 1984 NIV)

 

[RaymondG]

Jesus is the Groom and I am the bride. I personally believe that these scriptures are spiritual and must be spiritually discerned.....and that my carnal mind will not understand it.... And that in the flesh no man can please God......whether or not we refrain from bringing whips in the bedroom. However, I do feel that naturalizing scripture can bring good moral benefits to the race (if you ignore the killing and slavery etc...of the OT), but I dont know if this was the primary purpose of the word.

 

[W2L]

Jesus is the Groom and I am the bride. I personally believe that these scriptures are spiritual and must be spiritually discerned.

I agree that this Hebrews word "fornication" most likely refers to spiritual fornication.

 

[PollyJetix]

The human imagination tends toward iniquity. And we tend to try to justify ourselves before God.
Not everything a married couple may imagine doing, is glorifying to God.
God created sex. He intended for it to operate a certain way.

 

[RaymondG]

The human imagination tends toward iniquity. And we tend to try to justify ourselves before God.
Not everything a married couple may imagine doing, is glorifying to God.
God created sex. He intended for it to operate a certain way.

Are you suggesting that there are things a man and a woman can physically do in the bedroom that would be glorifying God?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I've always read it as adultery/cheating is a sin and obviously super bad in marriage. And when it comes to sex anything goes as long as:

1. Your not watching porn.
2. Not having sex with others (even if your spouse agrees to it).
3. And of course nothing related to the"butt". Because in the bibles thats a no-no. God made another place for man to put his end of things.

 

[PollyJetix]

Are you suggesting that there are things a man and a woman can physically do in the bedroom that would be glorifying God?

Of course. God is the Creator of sex. The marriage relationship was ordained before the Fall, and it was the crowning glory of His Creation. The ability to express the oneness of selfless love, and out of that, to reproduce, becoming co-creators with Him!
It's the enemy who tries to dirty everything God created. The enemy has twisted sex into something dirty, in our minds. But as God intended it, it is the most powerful force known to man, on a natural level. Because of the sex drive, good men settle down and create homes and civilizations. But Satan tries to twist that sex drive into something that destroys homes and civilizations.

 

[AlexDTX]

Jesus is the Groom and I am the bride. I personally believe that these scriptures are spiritual and must be spiritually discerned.....and that my carnal mind will not understand it.... And that in the flesh no man can please God......whether or not we refrain from bringing whips in the bedroom. However, I do feel that naturalizing scripture can bring good moral benefits to the race (if you ignore the killing and slavery etc...of the OT), but I dont know if this was the primary purpose of the word.

While I agree there can be a spiritual application, I believe the writer is making a very natural directive. But your comment brings to mind an overlooked truth: when we make love to our spouses we are also making love to Christ since Christ is in both partners of a Christian marriage. He is partaking in the pleasure. You speak of whips, that is clearly contrary to an act of love.

 

[AlexDTX]

Are you suggesting that there are things a man and a woman can physically do in the bedroom that would be glorifying God?

I agree with PollyJetics. What glorifies love is all sexual activity that express genuine love and affection without disturbing the natural function of the body.

 

[RaymondG]

While I agree there can be a spiritual application, I believe the writer is making a very natural directive. But your comment brings to mind an overlooked truth: when we make love to our spouses we are also making love to Christ since Christ is in both partners of a Christian marriage. He is partaking in the pleasure. You speak of whips, that is clearly contrary to an act of love.

I believe the other way around.....There can be natural benefits.....but the intended is Spiritual.... The letter killeth but the Spirit...... When I do ANYTHING in the flesh, or with my carnal mind, I dont attribute it to pleasing God. Because in the flesh no man can please God.....Have you found a way around this? Can anything i do or refrain from doing, help my chances of going to heaven? should i have a list of good works to proclaim before God in the event that i dont make it in? I meant Whip as symbolic to anything view as negative sexual behavior.

Im not saying you are wrong....you arent. But there is a way to life for those willing to look past the wilderness of trees to see the small narrow path.

 

[W2L]

interesting scripture

1 Corinthians 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.

 

[GeorgeJ]

But your comment brings to mind an overlooked truth: when we make love to our spouses we are also making love to Christ since Christ is in both partners of a Christian marriage.

This I disagree with. The bible never equates sex with your spouse and having sex with Christ. Were the Hebrews of the OT making love to God with they had sex with their spouses?

 

[RaymondG]

This I disagree with. The bible never equates sex with your spouse and having sex with Christ. Were the Hebrews of the OT making love to God with they had sex with their spouses?

You see? This type of stuff I didnt even want entering my imagination....This is why i left those comments alone....

sigh.....The bedroom will never be the same.

God is Spirit...He must be worshiped in spirit and in truth..........why try to bring worship in the bedroom?

 

[PollyJetix]

You see? This type of stuff I didnt even want entering my imagination....This is why i left those comments alone....

sigh.....The bedroom will never be the same.

God is Spirit...He must be worshiped in spirit and in truth..........why try to bring worship in the bedroom?

Did you know that the DNA of every sex partner a woman has ever had, will stay in her body until her body dies?
Two really DO become one flesh.

Actually, God created sex on a physical level to show us how He wants to become one with us, on a spiritual level.
1 Corinthians 6:15-17

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[RaymondG]

Did you know that the DNA of every sex partner a woman has ever had, will stay in her body until her body dies?
Two really DO become one flesh.

Actually, God created sex on a physical level to show us how He wants to become one with us, on a spiritual level.
1 Corinthians 6:15-17

Thanks for this info..... Now im going to go home and ask my wife one many men has she become One with....If im not the only one...Im throwing her and the other men out the house and quoting your post on the court proceedings.

When you discover the spiritual meanings of the scriptures you quote, your mind will be blown.

 

[PollyJetix]

When you discover the spiritual meanings of the scriptures you quote, your mind will be blown.

yeah. I know. My mind has been blown.