Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?

[YeshuaFan]

Whatever. Aquila was the teacher of Appolos. Guess that means nothing.

She was a teacher, but not in the position of being the local assemblies pastor/elder !

 

[YeshuaFan]

I understand. I have no problem with women serving the Lord and scripture does not teach against it. However, when I read the qualifications for an Elder , Pastor , Bishop, it clearly states a man for this position. I am not sure how to change what is written in Timothy to reflect both men and women.
Blessings

It wasn't, as Paul always is assuming that a Man is assigned to those roles, and he gives the qualifications for their spouses, if they have any!

 

[YeshuaFan]

There is no requirement for a man to be married, but simply that he not be a serial "marry-er," which was considered a scandal at the time although it was a common practice in Roman society.

The one qualified as either a Pastor/Elder must be married to just one wife at a time!

 

[YeshuaFan]

God did not ordain it to be that way. We can't blame God for human sin and bigotry in the name of God.

God indeed set up the pattern of male headship, and it is not being a bigot, but just the way he ordained it to be!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Obviously the Roman Catholic Church is not following scripture. They actually were married until 1139. So a bit late in the game.
Blessings

They err when they require ALL priests must be celibate, as ONLY those to whom were given that gift by God need to be!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Paul is not making a gender statement in this passage, but addressing the behavioral requirements of a Christian leader with respect to the men who needed to hear his message. The women who were kept secluded at home and under the domination of men were not typically the people running around having sex with prostitutes and also youths of the same gender while neglecting their husbands at home. Paul did address women in other parts of scripture, such as dressing modestly and not wearing strands of gold in their hair, etc. and thus addressing a problem more specific to women as he did not want Christian women being mistaken for the professional prostitutes who dressed in that manner. Paul's overall message concerning Christian behavior is that both men and women should stand apart and be distinguished from the world around them in a positive and Godly way. When we turn these verses into statements about gender roles and who should have which jobs at home and in the workplace, we are missing the entire point of Paul's message.

Paul was just giving to us the principle of male patterned leadership/headship, which was to be carried forward in the local assemblies!

 

[YeshuaFan]

So not obsolete then?

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The scriptures are all inspired and of God...

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes, and in the case of 1 Tim. 3:1, the wording in the Greek is ei tis — "if someone..." It's not actually gendered at all. The "if a man..." is a result of translation into English — in which it used to be common practice to use "man" and other masculine terms generically.

On top of that, again, 1 Timothy is probably not by Paul anyway.

It was by Paul, and the Greek text does though say a man, as why would there be the spouse also listed if generic for either gender?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Of course this is a valid reason. Look at Deborah going to Barak. The difficulty is in accepting/demonstrating that such women really are called by God. In the example of Cornelius (going back to an earlier example), God gives a divine symbol of His favour on the gentile believers by giving them the Holy Spirit and these speaking in tongues, demonstrating that the "everlasting covenant" of circumcision and the rest of the OT law was no longer required for such believers.

To my knowledge, there's been no similar accompanying symbol demonstrating that Paul's instructions in scripture about women in certain leadership roles (i.e. over men) are obsolete.

Deborah herself saw her as being the leader due to the called general of Israel not Himself accepting his role and position, and the pattern of male headship is taught in the NT as an ongoing pattern, not just for those local times!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Ok good point! But the verse goes on as "he". I am just looking for the "she version, if anyone can find it. BTW it's a tall order to fill the shoes of a Bishop!
Blessings

3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

The spouse qualifications are for wives also, and not for the husbands as the spouses!

 

[Kerensa]

How is 1 Timothy not written by Paul?
‬‬

Quite easily. A lot of Bible scholars conclude (and have for at least the past couple of centuries) that the "Pastoral Epistles" (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus) and a few other NT letters that bear Paul's name are probably not by him, mainly due to significant differences in style and content between these and the letters that are accepted as definitely by him. Wikipedia has a good general explanation of the issues: Authorship of the Pauline epistles

To me, that doesn't mean that the probably pseudonymous epistles have no valuable content at all, just that they aren't definitely representative of Paul's thought and shouldn't be taken as absolute guides for how Christians and churches should act. As I said before, it's ironic that the claim "All Scripture is God-breathed" — which is so often trotted out to "prove" that every word in the Bible should be taken literally and seen as infallible — actually comes from another of those letters (2 Tim.) that is quite probably not written by who it says it's written by.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Quite easily. A lot of Bible scholars conclude (and have for at least the past couple of centuries) that the "Pastoral Epistles" (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus) and a few other NT letters that bear Paul's name are probably not by him, mainly due to significant differences in style and content between these and the letters that are accepted as definitely by him. Wikipedia has a good general explanation of the issues: Authorship of the Pauline epistles

To me, that doesn't mean that the probably pseudonymous epistles have no valuable content at all, just that they aren't definitely representative of Paul's thought and shouldn't be taken as absolute guides for how Christians and churches should act. As I said before, it's ironic that the claim "All Scripture is God-breathed" — which is so often trotted out to "prove" that every word in the Bible should be taken literally and seen as infallible — actually comes from another of those letters (2 Tim.) that is quite probably not written by who it says it's written by.

I am going to need a better reference to this than Wikipedia.

Which scholars? Names and context.

The pastoral epistles are different than the epistles to the churches.

I could find some scholar somewhere to support just about any position I like. Doesn’t show the majority

 

[YeshuaFan]

Quite easily. A lot of Bible scholars conclude (and have for at least the past couple of centuries) that the "Pastoral Epistles" (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus) and a few other NT letters that bear Paul's name are probably not by him, mainly due to significant differences in style and content between these and the letters that are accepted as definitely by him. Wikipedia has a good general explanation of the issues: Authorship of the Pauline epistles

To me, that doesn't mean that the probably pseudonymous epistles have no valuable content at all, just that they aren't definitely representative of Paul's thought and shouldn't be taken as absolute guides for how Christians and churches should act. As I said before, it's ironic that the claim "All Scripture is God-breathed" — which is so often trotted out to "prove" that every word in the Bible should be taken literally and seen as infallible — actually comes from another of those letters (2 Tim.) that is quite probably not written by who it says it's written by.

That would be the critical/liberal thinking that tried to dominate studying the scriptures though, same group that would see 3 Isaiah's. 4 authors of the first 5 books of Bible etc..
The conservative viewpoint that Paul authored them is still very valid and strong!

 

[Kerensa]

I am going to need a better reference to this than Wikipedia.

Which scholars? Names and context.

Try the footnotes in Wikipedia, for a start.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I am going to need a better reference to this than Wikipedia.

Which scholars? Names and context.

The pastoral epistles are different than the epistles to the churches.

The higher criticism /critical "scholars" who saw 3 Isaiah's, 4 writers of Genesis etc!
Christians should still trust the conservative views in regards to who wrote the books of the Bible!

 

[Joy]

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[Kerensa]

The higher criticism /critical "scholars" who saw 3 Isaiah's, 4 writers of Genesis etc!

And who still do. They're called competent and respected Bible scholars, as opposed to literalists and fundamentalists.

 

[Albion]

OK , since this is speaking and directing men on the wisdom of leadership in the church , where in scripture does it give direction to women on the same issue?

Why would that be necessary? If anything, the absence of a verse of that sort, coupled with the several places in scripture that are usually taken to indicate that men only are to be pastors, etc., would tend to support the historic position of the church on this issue, wouldn't it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Try the footnotes in Wikipedia, for a start.

I meant more that you could provide proof as to the majority or scholars, rather than a minority.

Paul always has a greeting. 1 Timothy is no different.

I see no difinitive proof. It’s all relative.

 

[~Zao~]

Did you mean Pricilla?

Yes. Teacher is the same Greek word for pastor or shepherd in which case Priscilla was a shepherdess to Apollos.